The Hope: Birth of Israel

ContraMundum

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International terrorism exited even in Jesus' time with Zealots.

So, you're saying that Jews have always been terrorists?

Zionists forced their way into Palestine state with international terrorism targeting British.

Learn some history.

 
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Dialogist

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Dialogist

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Israel exists- that's a fact and tough luck if you don't like it. Jewish life is alive and well once again in the the Land and there's nothing anyone can do about it. All the theological, political and denominational griping and moaning in the world isn't going to change it.

And guess what? If you believe in God's sovereignty, as you should, then all this has happened by His hand and according to His will and plan.

I feel deeply for those under the oppression of the Muslim dictatorships who sects like your church support without question- but they are sadly mistaken if they think the removal of Israel will solve their problems. God has already made it happen.



Exactly what you should do. End the remnants of anti-semitism cloaked as "Orthodox Christian" theology in your own denomination. Look to your own house and its entrenched cursing of the Jewish people and call your own house to repentance and genuine Christian living. That doesn't mean embracing what you call Christian Zionism either- it means embracing the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount. It doesn't mean become a Protestant or whatever- it means ending the errors of those whose hearts did not love their neighbour- however Orthodox in other matters- calling them "brutes" and enshrining curses on them in their liturgy.

There is no reason to presume that Israeli hegemony in Palestine has anything to do with God's hand. As a taxpaying U.S. citizen, I am well within my rights to protest our support (which accounts for 25% of the Israeli defense budget) for a state which the U.N. has clearly identified as an oppressive regime.

"Jewish people" in my mind is not synonymous with "Israeli government." Their are plenty of conscientious Israelis who object to their government's treatment of Palestinians and Arab Jews. All of the information I take seriously comes only from Jewish news sources.

The issue today is no longer Israel's existence, as you say. The issue today is Israel's brutal treatment of Palestinian civilians and an astounding level of ignorance and/or indifference to the suffering that the Israeli state is causing, especially among American Christians who fanatically support Israel.

I am, however, more than willing to consider your point of view. To whit, I would like to discuss the following claims you made:

1. The Orthodox Church supports "Muslim dictatorships"
2. There are "remnants of anti-semitism" in Orthodox Christian theology
3. The Orthodox Church "enshrines curses" on the Jewish people during its liturgies

Could you point out specific instances of these to me? i.e.

1. Which specific Muslim dictatorships the Orthodox Church supports.
2. Which specific dogma or theologoumena in Orthodox Christian theology contain anti-semitic elements.
3. In which Orthodox liturgy or liturgies are Jewish people cursed.

Thank you.
 
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ContraMundum

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There is no reason to presume that Israeli hegemony in Palestine has anything to do with God's hand.

So, God is not in charge of the world or history?

Strange.

As a taxpaying U.S. citizen, I am well within my rights to protest our support (which accounts for 25% of the Israeli defense budget) for a state which the U.N. has clearly identified as an oppressive regime.

You're free to agree with the UN who appear to my mind to be wrong about who the real oppressor/s in the Middle East are.

"Jewish people" in my mind is not synonymous with "Israeli government." Their are plenty of conscientious Israelis who object to their government's treatment of Palestinians and Arab Jews.

Yep. Couldn't argue with that. I'm not a fan of the Israeli gov't all the time. But trust me when I tell you I'd rather live in Israel than under the crushing and demonic regime of Hamas, or Hezbollah or under the irresponsible, corrupt and incompetent Fatah. The 20% Arab population of Israel would seem to agree.

The issue today is no longer Israel's existence, as you say. The issue today is Israel's brutal treatment of Palestinian civilians and an astounding level of ignorance and/or indifference to the suffering that the Israeli state is causing, especially among American Christians who fanatically support Israel.

It is very much about Israel's existence. Read the Charter of the PLO (now Fatah), Hamas and Hezbollah. To them it's ALL about the existence of Israel.

I disagree with more too. The propaganda that "Palestinian" civilians are receiving "brutal treatment" as a general rule is unbalanced. Israel is not perfect, but it is forced into desperation when its neighbors have vowed to annihilate it and drive its people "into the sea". The displaced Jews and later Israel have for years (since before 1948 even) tried to make peaceful compromise with the descendants of the Arab invaders/immigrants who were sharing the Holy Land with them but the darkened heart of established and enshrined anti-semitism (propagated by both the Orthodox Churches and the Muslim cult) would have none of it and still won't. This is undeniable.

I am, however, more than willing to consider your point of view. To whit, I would like to discuss the following claims you made:

1. The Orthodox Church supports "Muslim dictatorships"

I never said that. I said the Arabs were under Muslim dictatorships. However, EO sects endorse those dictatorships merely out of racist loyalties. Just read the blind support for Fatah (and even Hamas!) in EO news outlets and opinion pieces.

Even the Copts (whom I respect greatly) have had Popes who cower under the Muslim yoke and condemn the state of Israel- and it's only because it's about supporting Arabs.

2. There are "remnants of anti-semitism" in Orthodox Christian theology

You seriously deny that?

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Priests-Remove-anti-Semitic-liturgy

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141286#.Vb8LahlFs0M

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/04/israeli-priest-hounded-for-his-support-of-israel/#

I know often EO's dodge responsibility on this matter and play the "not in my jurisdiction" card but it's not hard to find lethal hard-line and dangerous anti-semitism in the revered writings of those regarded as saints like Chrysostom and his many successors and followers.

Almost every article you find on the topic of anti-semitism and the Orthodox admits to it being a problem at least to some degree. It's there.

3. The Orthodox Church "enshrines curses" on the Jewish people during its liturgies

See articles above. The curses are enshrined in the liturgy, which is revered and established for generations in the hearts of the followers.

Could you point out specific instances of these to me? i.e.

1. Which specific Muslim dictatorships the Orthodox Church supports.

N/A.

2. Which specific dogma or theologoumena in Orthodox Christian theology contain anti-semitic elements.

Orthodoxy regards its prayers and liturgy as dogma- Divinely inspired. I like the summary put forward by an Orthodox Bishop found here:

"...For an Orthodox theologian, liturgical texts are not simply the works of outstanding theologians and poets, but also the fruits of the prayerful experience of those who have attained sanctity and theosis... Liturgical texts...have been accepted by the whole Church as a ‘rule of faith’ (kanon pisteos), for they have been read and sung everywhere in Orthodox churches over many centuries. Throughout this time, any erroneous ideas foreign to Orthodoxy that might have crept in either through misunderstanding or oversight were eliminated by church Tradition itself, leaving only pure and authoritative doctrine clothed by the poetic forms of the Church’s hymns."

3. In which Orthodox liturgy or liturgies are Jewish people cursed.

Thank you.

Cited in articles above.
 
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Dialogist

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So, God is not in charge of the world or history?

Strange.



You're free to agree with the UN who appear to my mind to be wrong about who the real oppressor/s in the Middle East are.



Yep. Couldn't argue with that. I'm not a fan of the Israeli gov't all the time. But trust me when I tell you I'd rather live in Israel than under the crushing and demonic regime of Hamas, or Hezbollah or under the irresponsible, corrupt and incompetent Fatah. The 20% Arab population of Israel would seem to agree.



It is very much about Israel's existence. Read the Charter of the PLO (now Fatah), Hamas and Hezbollah. To them it's ALL about the existence of Israel.

I disagree with more too. The propaganda that "Palestinian" civilians are receiving "brutal treatment" as a general rule is unbalanced. Israel is not perfect, but it is forced into desperation when its neighbors have vowed to annihilate it and drive its people "into the sea". The displaced Jews and later Israel have for years (since before 1948 even) tried to make peaceful compromise with the descendants of the Arab invaders/immigrants who were sharing the Holy Land with them but the darkened heart of established and enshrined anti-semitism (propagated by both the Orthodox Churches and the Muslim cult) would have none of it and still won't. This is undeniable.



I never said that. I said the Arabs were under Muslim dictatorships. However, EO sects endorse those dictatorships merely out of racist loyalties. Just read the blind support for Fatah (and even Hamas!) in EO news outlets and opinion pieces.

Even the Copts (whom I respect greatly) have had Popes who cower under the Muslim yoke and condemn the state of Israel- and it's only because it's about supporting Arabs.



You seriously deny that?

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Priests-Remove-anti-Semitic-liturgy

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141286#.Vb8LahlFs0M

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/04/israeli-priest-hounded-for-his-support-of-israel/#

I know often EO's dodge responsibility on this matter and play the "not in my jurisdiction" card but it's not hard to find lethal hard-line and dangerous anti-semitism in the revered writings of those regarded as saints like Chrysostom and his many successors and followers.

Almost every article you find on the topic of anti-semitism and the Orthodox admits to it being a problem at least to some degree. It's there.



See articles above. The curses are enshrined in the liturgy, which is revered and established for generations in the hearts of the followers.



N/A.



Orthodoxy regards its prayers and liturgy as dogma- Divinely inspired. I like the summary put forward by an Orthodox Bishop found here:

"...For an Orthodox theologian, liturgical texts are not simply the works of outstanding theologians and poets, but also the fruits of the prayerful experience of those who have attained sanctity and theosis... Liturgical texts...have been accepted by the whole Church as a ‘rule of faith’ (kanon pisteos), for they have been read and sung everywhere in Orthodox churches over many centuries. Throughout this time, any erroneous ideas foreign to Orthodoxy that might have crept in either through misunderstanding or oversight were eliminated by church Tradition itself, leaving only pure and authoritative doctrine clothed by the poetic forms of the Church’s hymns."



Cited in articles above.

So, God is not in charge of the world or history?

If you mean, does God directly intervene in every activity of man, I would have to answer no. I don't believe that that is the correct interpretation of what God's providence is. God has given man free will, which he can either bring into compliance with God's will or not. God does not impose His will on us. Scripture itself states that God does not impose his will on the world (1 John 5:19).


You're free to agree with the UN who appear to my mind to be wrong about who the real oppressor/s in the Middle East are.

Could you cite specific UN Human Rights Council resolutions related to Israel that you disagree with?

The propaganda that "Palestinian" civilians are receiving "brutal treatment" as a general rule is unbalanced.

During the last Gaza conflict around 1,500 Gaza civilians were killed, around 500 of whom were women or children. The ratio of Palestinian civilians killed to militants killed was 1.9 to 1.

During this same conflict, 5 Israeli citizens were killed. The ratio of Israeli citizens killed to IDF soldiers killed was 0.08 to 1.

EO sects endorse those dictatorships merely out of racist loyalties. Just read the blind support for Fatah (and even Hamas!) in EO news outlets and opinion pieces.

Could you provide some examples of these articles?


I don't think that you really answered my 2nd and 3rd questions:

2. Which specific dogma or theologoumena in Orthodox Christian theology contain anti-semitic elements?; and

3. In which Orthodox liturgy or liturgies are Jewish people cursed?


For #2 (anti-semitic Orthodox Christian dogma and theologoumena) you provide the following examples:

(a) A discussion of a 1992 study that found that the level of anti-Semitism in Russia was lower than that found in European countries, and that within Russia there was less evidence of anti-Semitism among Orthodox Christians than other groups.

(b) A 2007 article in the Jerusalem that quoted the director of an Israeli think tank as stating that the Orthodox Christian pascal services include the passages "the Jewish tribe which condemned you to crucifixion, repay them, Oh Lord" and "Christ has risen but the Jewish seed has perished"

(c) A 2010 article from an online Israeli site reporting that the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Piraeus made expansive and derogatory comments about Zionism and Jewish influence on world affairs.

(d) A 2013 article from a Jewish-American newspaper stating that Greek Orthodox priest and Arab Israeli Father Gabriel Nadaf was "excommunicated by the Orthodox Church Council" for encouraging Christian youth in Israel to serve either in the IDF or in Israeli National Service.


Regarding (a), the article does not state that Orthodox Christian theology contains any element of anti-Semitism, but rather than anti-Semitic views were found among a very small percentage of Russians who happened to be Orthodox Christians. The only claim the article seems to make about Orthodox Christian theology per se is that the Church Fathers were against Judaism, but were not anti-Semitic.


Regarding (b), what is quoted is not what is actually in the services. The first passage is the Troparion from the Third Hour Service, which in its entirety reads:

The Jews, O Lord, condemned thee to death, thou Life of all; and they whom thou didst cause to cross the Red Sea nailed thee on a Cross. They to whom thou gavest honey from the rock to eat, offered thee gall. Albeit, thou didst endure it willingly in order to deliver us from bondage to the enemy.

I cannot find any Holy Week or Paschal service that includes the exclamation "Christ has risen but the Jewish seed has perished." The only thing that is similar is the Paschal exclamation, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death."

Perhaps there are some "sects" somewhere that call themselves Orthodox that are using passages like the ones cited in the article, but they would not be in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church. As far as I know, any priest that would introduce such innovations into the Holy Week and Paschal services, which probably haven't been amended in well over 500 years, would be suspended or defrocked - precisely because of what Metropolitan Hilarion says in the article you quoted.

[As an aside, thank you for including the link to Metropolitan Hilarion. I didn't know that he had his own website. He is a very interesting individual - perfectly fluent in English and besides being an Orthodox Theologian he is an accomplished composer and pianist. He recently gave a recital here in Dallas when he came to visit Pres. Bush.]


Regarding (c), I was not familiar with this episode and I agree that his comments were not appropriate. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America condemned his remarks in a press release it issued in December of 2010. The Metropolitan subsequently issued a clarification (which in my opinion was lacking). However he did clarify that what he stated during the program was "strictly my personal views and opinions". It did not represent Orthodox Church dogma or theologoumena.


Regarding (d), the original poster also brought attention the "plight" of Father Gabriel. He is the poster child for Christian Zionists. The majority of Israeli Christians do not share his views and he carries a stigma of having been associated with the former Patriarch of Jerusalem, Irenaios Skopelitis, who was dismissed by the Church for selling off Christian properties in the Old City of Jerusalem to Israeli developers. He was, in fact, dismissed by the Jerusalem Patriarchate not because he was encouraging Arab youth to join the IDF per se, but because he was allowing his political activities to interfere with his pastoral duties as a priest. In any case, I fail to see how his circumstances support any claim that there are anti-Semitic elements in Orthodox Christian theology. His case was a political and administrative case, not an issue of theology.



I don't mean to be obstinate, but I think you have neither presented anything that demonstrates that there are anti-semitic elements in Eastern Orthodox theology nor identified elements of the Orthodox Liturgy or any other Divine Service that curses the Jewish people.
 
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ContraMundum

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If you mean, does God directly intervene in every activity of man, I would have to answer no. I don't believe that that is the correct interpretation of what God's providence is. God has given man free will, which he can either bring into compliance with God's will or not. God does not impose His will on us. Scripture itself states that God does not impose his will on the world (1 John 5:19).

Awful truncation of theology. Then tell me this- how does God give future prophecy if He doesn't intervene in world affairs to bring about events He in His sovereignty has revealed will come to pass? At some point God has to intervene in the affairs of those to whom He has given limited free-will. Otherwise, you have Deism at best and Open Theism at worst.

But then again, free will and sovereignty has always been a weak point in Eastern theology- so I understand your background. I can cite you sources in the Fathers that teach about God's sovereign intervention in human affairs.

Could you cite specific UN Human Rights Council resolutions related to Israel that you disagree with?

I haven't said that I regard the UN as a) an authority worth heeding and b) having any foundation based on honesty.

So, no, I don't even listen to the UN anymore. Couldn't care less. They've said things that support Israel's sovereign rights and things that have been useless as well. A mixed bag of "who cares?" for me.

During the last Gaza conflict around 1,500 Gaza civilians were killed, around 500 of whom were women or children. The ratio of Palestinian civilians killed to militants killed was 1.9 to 1.

During this same conflict, 5 Israeli citizens were killed. The ratio of Israeli citizens killed to IDF soldiers killed was 0.08 to 1.

This is exactly the kind of illogical and poorly thought out rhetoric that makes talking to people so frustrating, and why I avoid talking to people who engage in this kind of perverse, twisted and dark logic. But I'll answer you, because you might be honestly just duped like some and have good intentions. If I get so much as a sniff that you are another propagandist, you'll go straight to the discard bin.

Israel bent over backwards to avoid civilian casualties during that military operation. Hamas bent over backwards to make sure that civilian casualties were high. Why? Dead civilians make great headlines and help foster sympathy, albeit misguided and ultimately supportive of the Islamic tyranny of Hamas. Bodycount politics makes great propaganda but rarely presents truth in reporting.

I could cite numerous articles that demonstrate how Israel did its utmost to avoid civilian casualties and how Hamas and those in alliance with it did so much to threaten the lives of civilians, using them as fodder in their twisted jihad, but I suspect you might disregard anything as your image of Israel and Jews is perhaps already poisoned and you have fallen for the vilification so prominently presented in some media, religious and political circles. I'm already worrying about that regarding your POV.

http://www.thetower.org/2129-how-the-idf-works-to-prevent-civilian-casualties/

Since you like the UN:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/1...-idf-to-leave-targeted-buildings-in-advance/#

Compare that to this official PNA (Palestinian National Authority) statement urging people to ignore warnings:

http://www.moi.gov.ps/En/Details.aspx?NID=67875

Israel: "Get out, we're going to blow up the weapons and ammunition those jihadists put in your building"

Hamas: "Stay and die."

Worse still: Even now they rebuild the tunnels into Israel with the money and concrete given to them to rebuild housing.

These people are evil. You indirectly support them by not speaking against it. Israel must defend its borders and security, and the world must uphold that.

It seems to me that there is no real meaning of the word "peace" for radical Muslims. They seem to think it means "pause to re-arm".

I don't think that you really answered my 2nd and 3rd questions:

2. Which specific dogma or theologoumena in Orthodox Christian theology contain anti-semitic elements?; and

3. In which Orthodox liturgy or liturgies are Jewish people cursed?

WHAT? Are you serious?

Even Orthodox theologians see it and that's why I cited them.

For #2 (anti-semitic Orthodox Christian dogma and theologoumena) you provide the following examples:

(a) A discussion of a 1992 study that found that the level of anti-Semitism in Russia was lower than that found in European countries, and that within Russia there was less evidence of anti-Semitism among Orthodox Christians than other groups.

It said in in 10 people in Russia were anti-semitic. That's massive. Less than Europe? So what?! Imagine this: you go to a party. There are twenty people. 2 of them despise you because you are Jewish and blame you for stuff you never heard of. They will most likely bring it up. Now, go to a football match or even a church and do the maths.

The people who I have encountered in my years on Earth that want to argue with me about their "issues" with the Jews are almost always Eastern European and usually "Orthodox". If one in ten of the people are like that- that makes life socially and even financially miserable. My great-grandparents fled Russia a long time ago to avoid Pogroms. Pogroms would not have been possible without the blessing of the Church (who engaged in forced conversion as well- Christian? I don't think so) nor without the people whose popular mind was at least partially (if not more) formed by the the Church.

Taking the above in context with Russian Orthodox priests that want the anti-semitic prayers taken out of the Easter Vigil liturgy I'd say there is a problem in Russia that you just don't want to see. If there's no anti-semitic prayers...what are they asking to be removed?

(b) A 2007 article in the Jerusalem that quoted the director of an Israeli think tank as stating that the Orthodox Christian pascal services include the passages "the Jewish tribe which condemned you to crucifixion, repay them, Oh Lord" and "Christ has risen but the Jewish seed has perished"

That doesn't bother you? Christians in prayer to make God give a retribution to a whole people for something done centuries ago that He Himself forgave?

(c) A 2010 article from an online Israeli site reporting that the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Piraeus made expansive and derogatory comments about Zionism and Jewish influence on world affairs.

You're ok with that too? Old prejudices that don't hold water are ok for Christian leaders to teach as truth? These prejudices (see: Protocols of Zion for an example) lead to persecution and vilification. Perfect fuel for Golden Dawn.

(d) A 2013 article from a Jewish-American newspaper stating that Greek Orthodox priest and Arab Israeli Father Gabriel Nadaf was "excommunicated by the Orthodox Church Council" for encouraging Christian youth in Israel to serve either in the IDF or in Israeli National Service.

You're fine with that too?

Regarding (a), the article does not state that Orthodox Christian theology contains any element of anti-Semitism, but rather than anti-Semitic views were found among a very small percentage of Russians who happened to be Orthodox Christians. The only claim the article seems to make about Orthodox Christian theology per se is that the Church Fathers were against Judaism, but were not anti-Semitic.

There lies the whole problem. For centuries Christians have been saying that the Fathers, or Luther, or whoever have been against Judaism but not against Jews per se. It's a false dichotomy in practice. If they were against Judaism and not Jews then why is there no distinction between those who follow Judaism and those who are Jews in the liturgy? Why is the whole nation called ""the murderers of God, the lawless nation of the Jews" and also "impious and transgressing people". These are directly from the Orthodox Liturgy. See: The Lenten Triodion. 2nd ed. South Canaan: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, 2002. 612.

In other words, why am I, a 21st C Jew, and my whole family still blamed for something Jesus bid the Father to forgive? I wasn't there. Nor are my family lawless and impious. In fact, we're all rather keen on keeping God's law.

Furthermore- and here's the point. To the victim, the motives of the persecutor don't matter all that much. Either way, he is a victim. "I'm not burning your house down because you are a Jew, but because you are Jewish. My religious or political leader says I should do this" The effect is the same regardless of the reasons given.

Now let's turn to the Fathers...

Here's a summary on Chrysostom's blind hatred for Jewish people. It's clear to me that the Spirit departed from him when he wrote those violent sermons and for anyone to claim to be a Christian and bid others to hate someone is obviously more akin to a cult leader than a person filled with the Spirit, bearing His fruit. Here is the whole series in full. That allows you to check the context. Warning: you need a strong stomach. You will note that the term "Jews" is used and no distinction is made between the religion and nation. Even if it could be proven that Chrysostom regarded the estate of Jewish Christians to be an equal estate as Christians of other nations, his remarks are racist at best and clearly have embedded hatred for the Jewish people in the minds of those who follow him, then and now.

Here's some snippets from the man the Orthodox regard as a Saint:

"The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan....they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition."

"It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews."

Nice guy? How exactly is this loving your neighbor?

Gregory of Nyssa (331-396 C.E.):

[Jews are] "Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the Devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness."

There's two snippets for you. We find comments in Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Origen (ok...not a saint, but reflecting the zeitgeist of his day for sure) Augustine etc

Regarding (c), I was not familiar with this episode and I agree that his comments were not appropriate. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America condemned his remarks in a press release it issued in December of 2010. The Metropolitan subsequently issued a clarification (which in my opinion was lacking). However he did clarify that what he stated during the program was "strictly my personal views and opinions". It did not represent Orthodox Church dogma or theologoumena.

Good. Thanks for that.

Regarding (d), the original poster also brought attention the "plight" of Father Gabriel. He is the poster child for Christian Zionists. The majority of Israeli Christians do not share his views and he carries a stigma of having been associated with the former Patriarch of Jerusalem, Irenaios Skopelitis, who was dismissed by the Church for selling off Christian properties in the Old City of Jerusalem to Israeli developers. He was, in fact, dismissed by the Jerusalem Patriarchate not because he was encouraging Arab youth to join the IDF per se, but because he was allowing his political activities to interfere with his pastoral duties as a priest. In any case, I fail to see how his circumstances support any claim that there are anti-Semitic elements in Orthodox Christian theology. His case was a political and administrative case, not an issue of theology.

OK. Noted.

I don't mean to be obstinate, but I think you have neither presented anything that demonstrates that there are anti-semitic elements in Eastern Orthodox theology nor identified elements of the Orthodox Liturgy or any other Divine Service that curses the Jewish people.

Well, I have dealt with it. I know (for a fact) that Orthodox theology can be slippery when finer points are pursued. The old "not in my jurisdiction" and "that's not really Orthodox" lines are used on both sides of any one given argument. However, denial is a problem here. By disavowing anything one finds repugnant or disagreeable within one's own community one may find themselves committing a sin of omission. It is well known that Sainted individuals are regarded as vital references in the formation of Orthodox theology (in particular reference to Holy Tradition), and when there is a form of consensus, to question that Holy Tradition is considered either heterodox at best or heretical at worst.
 
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Dialogist

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Awful truncation of theology. Then tell me this- how does God give future prophecy if He doesn't intervene in world affairs to bring about events He in His sovereignty has revealed will come to pass? At some point God has to intervene in the affairs of those to whom He has given limited free-will. Otherwise, you have Deism at best and Open Theism at worst.

But then again, free will and sovereignty has always been a weak point in Eastern theology- so I understand your background. I can cite you sources in the Fathers that teach about God's sovereign intervention in human affairs.



I haven't said that I regard the UN as a) an authority worth heeding and b) having any foundation based on honesty.

So, no, I don't even listen to the UN anymore. Couldn't care less. They've said things that support Israel's sovereign rights and things that have been useless as well. A mixed bag of "who cares?" for me.



This is exactly the kind of illogical and poorly thought out rhetoric that makes talking to people so frustrating, and why I avoid talking to people who engage in this kind of perverse, twisted and dark logic. But I'll answer you, because you might be honestly just duped like some and have good intentions. If I get so much as a sniff that you are another propagandist, you'll go straight to the discard bin.

Israel bent over backwards to avoid civilian casualties during that military operation. Hamas bent over backwards to make sure that civilian casualties were high. Why? Dead civilians make great headlines and help foster sympathy, albeit misguided and ultimately supportive of the Islamic tyranny of Hamas. Bodycount politics makes great propaganda but rarely presents truth in reporting.

I could cite numerous articles that demonstrate how Israel did its utmost to avoid civilian casualties and how Hamas and those in alliance with it did so much to threaten the lives of civilians, using them as fodder in their twisted jihad, but I suspect you might disregard anything as your image of Israel and Jews is perhaps already poisoned and you have fallen for the vilification so prominently presented in some media, religious and political circles. I'm already worrying about that regarding your POV.

http://www.thetower.org/2129-how-the-idf-works-to-prevent-civilian-casualties/

Since you like the UN:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/1...-idf-to-leave-targeted-buildings-in-advance/#

Compare that to this official PNA (Palestinian National Authority) statement urging people to ignore warnings:

http://www.moi.gov.ps/En/Details.aspx?NID=67875

Israel: "Get out, we're going to blow up the weapons and ammunition those jihadists put in your building"

Hamas: "Stay and die."

Worse still: Even now they rebuild the tunnels into Israel with the money and concrete given to them to rebuild housing.

These people are evil. You indirectly support them by not speaking against it. Israel must defend its borders and security, and the world must uphold that.

It seems to me that there is no real meaning of the word "peace" for radical Muslims. They seem to think it means "pause to re-arm".



WHAT? Are you serious?

Even Orthodox theologians see it and that's why I cited them.



It said in in 10 people in Russia were anti-semitic. That's massive. Less than Europe? So what?! Imagine this: you go to a party. There are twenty people. 2 of them despise you because you are Jewish and blame you for stuff you never heard of. They will most likely bring it up. Now, go to a football match or even a church and do the maths.

The people who I have encountered in my years on Earth that want to argue with me about their "issues" with the Jews are almost always Eastern European and usually "Orthodox". If one in ten of the people are like that- that makes life socially and even financially miserable. My great-grandparents fled Russia a long time ago to avoid Pogroms. Pogroms would not have been possible without the blessing of the Church (who engaged in forced conversion as well- Christian? I don't think so) nor without the people whose popular mind was at least partially (if not more) formed by the the Church.

Taking the above in context with Russian Orthodox priests that want the anti-semitic prayers taken out of the Easter Vigil liturgy I'd say there is a problem in Russia that you just don't want to see. If there's no anti-semitic prayers...what are they asking to be removed?



That doesn't bother you? Christians in prayer to make God give a retribution to a whole people for something done centuries ago that He Himself forgave?



You're ok with that too? Old prejudices that don't hold water are ok for Christian leaders to teach as truth? These prejudices (see: Protocols of Zion for an example) lead to persecution and vilification. Perfect fuel for Golden Dawn.



You're fine with that too?



There lies the whole problem. For centuries Christians have been saying that the Fathers, or Luther, or whoever have been against Judaism but not against Jews per se. It's a false dichotomy in practice. If they were against Judaism and not Jews then why is there no distinction between those who follow Judaism and those who are Jews in the liturgy? Why is the whole nation called ""the murderers of God, the lawless nation of the Jews" and also "impious and transgressing people". These are directly from the Orthodox Liturgy. See: The Lenten Triodion. 2nd ed. South Canaan: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, 2002. 612.

In other words, why am I, a 21st C Jew, and my whole family still blamed for something Jesus bid the Father to forgive? I wasn't there. Nor are my family lawless and impious. In fact, we're all rather keen on keeping God's law.

Furthermore- and here's the point. To the victim, the motives of the persecutor don't matter all that much. Either way, he is a victim. "I'm not burning your house down because you are a Jew, but because you are Jewish. My religious or political leader says I should do this" The effect is the same regardless of the reasons given.

Now let's turn to the Fathers...

Here's a summary on Chrysostom's blind hatred for Jewish people. It's clear to me that the Spirit departed from him when he wrote those violent sermons and for anyone to claim to be a Christian and bid others to hate someone is obviously more akin to a cult leader than a person filled with the Spirit, bearing His fruit. Here is the whole series in full. That allows you to check the context. Warning: you need a strong stomach. You will note that the term "Jews" is used and no distinction is made between the religion and nation. Even if it could be proven that Chrysostom regarded the estate of Jewish Christians to be an equal estate as Christians of other nations, his remarks are racist at best and clearly have embedded hatred for the Jewish people in the minds of those who follow him, then and now.

Here's some snippets from the man the Orthodox regard as a Saint:

"The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan....they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition."

"It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews."

Nice guy? How exactly is this loving your neighbor?

Gregory of Nyssa (331-396 C.E.):

[Jews are] "Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the Devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness."

There's two snippets for you. We find comments in Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Origen (ok...not a saint, but reflecting the zeitgeist of his day for sure) Augustine etc



Good. Thanks for that.



OK. Noted.



Well, I have dealt with it. I know (for a fact) that Orthodox theology can be slippery when finer points are pursued. The old "not in my jurisdiction" and "that's not really Orthodox" lines are used on both sides of any one given argument. However, denial is a problem here. By disavowing anything one finds repugnant or disagreeable within one's own community one may find themselves committing a sin of omission. It is well known that Sainted individuals are regarded as vital references in the formation of Orthodox theology (in particular reference to Holy Tradition), and when there is a form of consensus, to question that Holy Tradition is considered either heterodox at best or heretical at worst.

Dear Brother (or Sister):

I still do not think that you have directly answered my request to identify specific dogma in the Orthodox Church that is antisemitic. You have several times taken distorted quotes out of context to prove your point. It also appears that you have been selective about what you are quoting from my posts when they refute something you are saying.

I think the tone of this dialog has degraded to the point where it is no longer helpful for either of us. I apologize to you and to the forum for the direction this thread has taken. I will no longer participate in it.

May God keep you.
 
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ContraMundum

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Dear Brother (or Sister):

I still do not think that you have directly answered my request to identify specific dogma in the Orthodox Church that is antisemitic. You have several times taken distorted quotes out of context to prove your point. It also appears that you have been selective about what you are quoting from my posts when they refute something you are saying.

I know you don't see it, but I do. So do the Orthodox Priests and people who want anti-semitism removed from the Easter Vigil prayers. Perhaps you need to consult with them to see what both they and I see.

There are witnesses in your own communion saying exactly what I am saying. You should look harder and try to see it from a Jewish point of view. Remember the pogroms endorsed by the Orthodox and the forced conversions started with an attitude, that turned into words, that turned into action, that turned into the deaths, displacement and deportation of Jews. I bid you to trace that thread through history and see what we see.

I don't understand how a person can just sweep the words of Orthodox Saints and eminent leaders like Chrysostom under the carpet and say "there's no anti-semitism there". When you're on the receiving end of such words you don't feel the love of neighbour (or God) coming your way!

I think the tone of this dialog has degraded to the point where it is no longer helpful for either of us. I apologize to you and to the forum for the direction this thread has taken. I will no longer participate in it.

May God keep you.

Good idea.
 
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AbbaLove

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Dear Brother (or Sister):
I think the tone of this dialog has degraded to the point where it is no longer helpful for either of us. I apologize to you and to the forum for the direction this thread has taken. I will no longer participate in it. May God keep you.
I don't understand how a person can just sweep the words of Orthodox Saints and eminent leaders like Chrysostom under the carpet and say "there's no anti-semitism there". When you're on the receiving end of such words you don't feel the love of neighbour (or God) coming your way!
Dear ContraMundum,

I don't understand why you don't see their (Dialogist's) perspective. Eastern Orthodox Christians weren't being decapitated and persecuted by their Arab neighbors previous to 1948, to the worldwide media extent that they are in the 21st Century. Is it not culturally and politically expedient for Eastern Orthodox Christians in the Middle East to be more sympathetic to Palestinians than the State of Israel.

The fervent/strict orthodox Israeli Jews are opposed to the State of Israel perceiving themselves (not the secular State of Israel) to be "the scribes and scholars, fulfilling their role by defending what they believe is the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism." Fervent/strict Orthodox Jews do not serve in the IDF, celebrate Israel's national Independence Day or celebrate other "state" instituted holidays, referring to them as "idolatrous." So two opposing Jewish viewpoints just as their are two opposing Christian viewpoints.

So, here we have two "Christians" whose discussion in this thread has "degraded" because both maintain that their cultural and political views are more valid than the views of the opposing Christian. ... Sound familiar ?
 
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ContraMundum

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It is a fact. Many Youtubes indicate the foul language used against Jesus Christ when Jews who had settled in occupied land were questioned.

Not sure how that's relevant, nor about the accuracy of anything on YouTube.
 
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ContraMundum

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Dear ContraMundum,

I don't understand why you don't see their (Dialogist's) perspective. Eastern Orthodox Christians weren't being decapitated and persecuted by their Arab neighbors previous to 1948, to the worldwide media extent that they are in the 21st Century. Is it not culturally and politically expedient for Eastern Orthodox Christians in the Middle East to be more sympathetic to Palestinians than the State of Israel.

The fervent/strict orthodox Israeli Jews are opposed to the State of Israel perceiving themselves (not the secular State of Israel) to be "the scribes and scholars, fulfilling their role by defending what they believe is the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism." Fervent/strict Orthodox Jews do not serve in the IDF, celebrate Israel's national Independence Day or celebrate other "state" instituted holidays, referring to them as "idolatrous." So two opposing Jewish viewpoints just as their are two opposing Christian viewpoints.

So, here we have two "Christians" whose discussion in this thread has "degraded" because both maintain that their cultural and political views are more valid than the views of the opposing Christian. ... Sound familiar ?

As above...I'm not sure how relevant or accurate that is. Generalizations don't make much of a point.
 
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Righttruth

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Not sure how that's relevant, nor about the accuracy of anything on YouTube.

Not only Utube. One can see the news paper reports about how Jews have resisted, sometimes violently, relocation from the buildings they had constructed in the occupied West bank areas by Israeli government.
 
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Not only Utube. One can see the news paper reports about how Jews have resisted, sometimes violently, relocation from the buildings they had constructed in the occupied West bank areas by Israeli government.

I'm having trouble following you, to be honest. It's like your jumping all over the place. So, now we're talking about the relocation of the Jews and somehow that is relevant to....? What?
 
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Righttruth

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I'm having trouble following you, to be honest. It's like your jumping all over the place. So, now we're talking about the relocation of the Jews and somehow that is relevant to....? What?

There is no hope in the Zionist and politicized state of Israel.
 
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