Role of baptism in salvation

oi_antz

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What about somebody like me who is now an atheist? Let's imagine that I find some reason to believe in Christianity and decide to start following the Christian path again? Would I need to do baptism #4?
You would know the answer to this when it happens, because surely to come to faith from your situation will involve a real experience with God. I expect ViaCrucis is right, you would have faith in the baptism you already committed.
 
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cloudyday2

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If you are an atheist and do not believe in the exsistence of God, then you have never truly surrendered your life to Christ and placed your faith in Him. Therefore you being baptized (however many times) is irrelevant. Does that make sense?

Nope, doesn't make sense, because
(1) Nobody TOTALLY surrenders their life to Christ. If somebody thinks they have then they might need to examine their life again.
(2) I have surrendered my life to Christ in the past (as much as the average Christian), and I considered myself a Christian.

So that belief you described (OSAS?) doesn't fly. Google "ex-Christian forum" (or similar) and you will see that the belief is contradicted by the data.

Of course, I appreciate the response :) Lots of people believe similarly to you, so I'm sure it has good theological reasoning behind it.
 
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Albion

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What about somebody like me who is now an atheist? Let's imagine that I find some reason to believe in Christianity and decide to start following the Christian path again? Would I need to do baptism #4?

No. You've been baptized. Repentance would be operative word at that stage of things.

But as a matter of fact, the early church dealt with this problem and decided that a "re-baptism" was not in order when people did exactly as you are describing or joined one of the many other religions that abounded in the Roman world at that time.
 
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dms1972

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Would you agree that baptism has become less important with the rise of Evangelical theology? For example, Christians used to disagree over what constituted a valid baptism. There was: (full immersion vs. sprinkling), (infant vs. mature), (Trinitarian vs non-Trinitarian).

This question about the rise of Evangelical theology, is difficult to answer. 'Evangelical' is a word that has a long history. Its now used at times to mean something else, or less than it has meant historically. It signifies a current in a wider river thats has been within christianity from the beginning. Its not an ideological term. It doesn't mean fundamentalist - two common misunderstandings. To speak about it it is needful to disentangle the contemporary american popular understanding of the term from its historical usage . I don't really know enough however to explain why for instance in a earlier century it was more common to refer to preaching as evangelic - i would guess the evangel-ical (the suffix 'ical' rather than 'ic') can be explained in some manner? It seems though that evangelic refered to preaching, and evangelical refers to in addition to preaching, also to groups and individuals.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I do understand a little of the difference in emphasis between Calvin and Luther in their wider theologies. And definitely would consider myself closer to Luther than to Calvin.

What I would like to understand better is soli deo gloria in lutheran theology. But thats for a new thread I think. What I see in Lutheran Catechism is less of a separation between symbolic action and that which is symbolised. Also in understanding the meaning of water, but I think the eastern orthodox explain that more fully.

In Lutheranism we believe that God has specifically promised to act through certain means, what we call Means of Grace; these Means are Word and Sacrament. A point we would look at is that in Scripture God consistently uses means to make Himself known, and to act, God always encounters people through mediation. For example in Scripture Moses petitions God to let him see God in His fullness, God responds "No man may see Me and live." And Moses only catches a glimpse of God's "backside" and this itself causes Moses' face to shine so brilliantly that it requires him to wear a veil to cover his face for a while afterward so that others aren't blinded by that light. So God acts through Means, or makes Himself known through things; Moses' first encounter with God is in the form of a burning bush, God leads the Israelites by pillars of fire and smoke, God heals the Israelites using a bronze serpent, God sends prophets to speak His Word, etc. And, of course, most importantly there is Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, God made man.

So since we see that God uses means, it shouldn't be surprising that God has promised us means by which we can have certainty of where God is and what God is doing. So that by the preaching of the Gospel God is most certainly acting, acting to come down and grant us faith, as St. Paul writes, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ." (Romans 10:17) or earlier, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe." (Romans 1:16). Likewise we see that God has instituted Sacraments, sacred mysteries whereby (if we were to quote St. Augustine) "the Word is attached to an element and it becomes a Sacrament, that is, visible Word"; so we see that God has attached certain promise, has attached His Word, to water in Baptism. The water itself isn't what matters, it is the Word which God has united to the water, namely "Baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21), "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:21), "All of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death" (Romans 6:3), "He cleansed her by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26), "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5), "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and so on and so forth. Therefore God has attached promises to this thing, Baptism, with Baptism it is water with the Word, not just mere water. It is the Word that does all these things and makes all these things happen, as the Prophet Isaiah has written, "So shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

When God speaks, it happens. When God promises, it is certain. So when God speaks to us, in the waters of Baptism, that we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection, clothed with Christ, our sins forgiven, receiving the Holy Spirit, and indeed are saved we can be confident in our faith that these things are true for God has promised them to us.

Therefore it fundamentally isn't the water that matters at all; but what God has attached to the water--namely His Word, thereby water and Word is a Sacrament, specifically the Sacrament of Baptism. If it were only water, it would not be Baptism, but because it is water with the Word it is Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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savedbygrace71

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Nope, doesn't make sense, because
(1) Nobody TOTALLY surrenders their life to Christ. If somebody thinks they have then they might need to examine their life again.
(2) I have surrendered my life to Christ in the past (as much as the average Christian), and I considered myself a Christian.

So that belief you described (OSAS?) doesn't fly. Google "ex-Christian forum" (or similar) and you will see that the belief is contradicted by the data.

Of course, I appreciate the response :) Lots of people believe similarly to you, so I'm sure it has good theological reasoning behind it.
How can you be a true follower of Christ and then become an atheist? I don't think there's absolutely any way that that is possible. And what exactly do you want me to see by going on ex-Christian forums? I'm not trying to argue or put you down. I'm just telling you how it is. Explain to me your salvation experience and I will try to understand your situation.
 
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Albion

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How can you be a true follower of Christ and then become an atheist? I don't think there's absolutely any way that that is possible.
That isn't the issue in his case, though. It's whether having once been baptised...and then falling away...another baptism would be right if that person came back?
 
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cloudyday2

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How can you be a true follower of Christ and then become an atheist? I don't think there's absolutely any way that that is possible. And what exactly do you want me to see by going on ex-Christian forums? I'm not trying to argue or put you down. I'm just telling you how it is. Explain to me your salvation experience and I will try to understand your situation.

If you read some testimonies from ex-Christians, you would see that these people were true followers of Christ who became atheists later. There are even some famous Christian leaders who became atheists later. You just wake up and say, "hmmm, I thought Christianity was true, but I guess I was wrong."

Maybe you can explain your thinking on this issue. It is an interesting topic.

BTW: I don't claim to have been the greatest Christian. I was just a mediocre Christian at best, but I believed all that stuff and tried a little bit.
 
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savedbygrace71

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If you read some testimonies from ex-Christians, you would see that these people were true followers of Christ who became atheists later. There are even some famous Christian leaders who became atheists later. You just wake up and say, "hmmm, I thought Christianity was true, but I guess I was wrong."

Maybe you can explain your thinking on this issue. It is an interesting topic.

BTW: I don't claim to have been the greatest Christian. I was just a mediocre Christian at best, but I believed all that stuff and tried a little bit.
You're kind of proving my point here. Anyone can claim to be a "Christian." That doesn't make them a follower of Christ. You're turning Christianity into a religion, when really it's the opposite. It's a relationship with the One who took our punishment for us. My thinking on all of the testimonies of the "ex-Christians" is that they never truly repented of their sin, placed their faith in Christ and trusted in Him to save them.
 
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cloudyday2

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You're kind of proving my point here. Anyone can claim to be a "Christian." That doesn't make them a follower of Christ. You're turning Christianity into a religion, when really it's the opposite. It's a relationship with the One who took our punishment for us. My thinking on all of the testimonies of the "ex-Christians" is that they never truly repented of their sin, placed their faith in Christ and trusted in Him to save them.

Are you fairly certain that you are a Christian? If you read the testimonies of some ex-Christians you will probably find a few that felt they had a relationship with Jesus, went on missionary trips to Timbuktu, ... anything you yourself have felt or done.
 
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dms1972

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In Lutheranism we believe that God has specifically promised to act through certain means, what we call Means of Grace; these Means are Word and Sacrament. A point we would look at is that in Scripture God consistently uses means to make Himself known, and to act, God always encounters people through mediation. For example in Scripture Moses petitions God to let him see God in His fullness, God responds "No man may see Me and live." And Moses only catches a glimpse of God's "backside" and this itself causes Moses' face to shine so brilliantly that it requires him to wear a veil to cover his face for a while afterward so that others aren't blinded by that light. So God acts through Means, or makes Himself known through things; Moses' first encounter with God is in the form of a burning bush, God leads the Israelites by pillars of fire and smoke, God heals the Israelites using a bronze serpent, God sends prophets to speak His Word, etc. And, of course, most importantly there is Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, God made man.

So since we see that God uses means, it shouldn't be surprising that God has promised us means by which we can have certainty of where God is and what God is doing. So that by the preaching of the Gospel God is most certainly acting, acting to come down and grant us faith, as St. Paul writes, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ." (Romans 10:17) or earlier, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe." (Romans 1:16). Likewise we see that God has instituted Sacraments, sacred mysteries whereby (if we were to quote St. Augustine) "the Word is attached to an element and it becomes a Sacrament, that is, visible Word"; so we see that God has attached certain promise, has attached His Word, to water in Baptism. The water itself isn't what matters, it is the Word which God has united to the water, namely "Baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21), "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:21), "All of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death" (Romans 6:3), "He cleansed her by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26), "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5), "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and so on and so forth. Therefore God has attached promises to this thing, Baptism, with Baptism it is water with the Word, not just mere water. It is the Word that does all these things and makes all these things happen, as the Prophet Isaiah has written, "So shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

When God speaks, it happens. When God promises, it is certain. So when God speaks to us, in the waters of Baptism, that we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection, clothed with Christ, our sins forgiven, receiving the Holy Spirit, and indeed are saved we can be confident in our faith that these things are true for God has promised them to us.

Therefore it fundamentally isn't the water that matters at all; but what God has attached to the water--namely His Word, thereby water and Word is a Sacrament, specifically the Sacrament of Baptism. If it were only water, it would not be Baptism, but because it is water with the Word it is Baptism.

Thanks for that helpful explanation.
 
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savedbygrace71

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Are you fairly certain that you are a Christian? If you read the testimonies of some ex-Christians you will probably find a few that felt they had a relationship with Jesus, went on missionary trips to Timbuktu, ... anything you yourself have felt or done.
Again, you are taking Christianity and making it into religion when it's not at all religion. Ephesians 2:8-9. Read that passage. You are making this issue complicated when it is simple to understand. These "ex-Christians" who shared testimonies, were never truly saved. We could go back and forth about this as long as you wish. I'm not trying to make this into an argument. I'm simply trying to point you to the Truth. God bless.
 
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cloudyday2

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Again, you are taking Christianity and making it into religion when it's not at all religion. Ephesians 2:8-9. Read that passage. You are making this issue complicated when it is simple to understand. These "ex-Christians" who shared testimonies, were never truly saved. We could go back and forth about this as long as you wish. I'm not trying to make this into an argument. I'm simply trying to point you to the Truth. God bless.

o.k. I won't argue about it.
 
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golgotha61

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If you read some testimonies from ex-Christians, you would see that these people were true followers of Christ who became atheists later. There are even some famous Christian leaders who became atheists later. You just wake up and say, "hmmm, I thought Christianity was true, but I guess I was wrong."

I am curious as to what a "true follower of Christ" looks like in your estimation. Above you said that no one completely surrenders to Christ, so I wonder if one can be a "true follower of Christ" in your judgement and still not surrender completely to Him? The reasoning that you give of ex-Christians becoming atheists is simply the opposite of ex-atheists becoming Christians and the only thing that this process demonstrates is man's ability to chose freely what to believe and what not to believe. And the idea that one wakes up and then denies the reality of the Christian faith is not as simplistic as you portend it to be. In a few of these conversions lies an existential base which is ofter centered on suffering and the inability to reconcile suffering with a loving God. I have found few, if any, denials of God's existence and the rejection of the truthfulness of His Word based solely on scholarship. It seems that there is always some event involved that creates a bias that the skeptic is unable to set aside.
 
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cloudyday2

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I am curious as to what a "true follower of Christ" looks like in your estimation. Above you said that no one completely surrenders to Christ, so I wonder if one can be a "true follower of Christ" in your judgement and still not surrender completely to Him? The reasoning that you give of ex-Christians becoming atheists is simply the opposite of ex-atheists becoming Christians and the only thing that this process demonstrates is man's ability to chose freely what to believe and what not to believe. And the idea that one wakes up and then denies the reality of the Christian faith is not as simplistic as you portend it to be. In a few of these conversions lies an existential base which is ofter centered on suffering and the inability to reconcile suffering with a loving God. I have found few, if any, denials of God's existence and the rejection of the truthfulness of His Word based solely on scholarship. It seems that there is always some event involved that creates a bias that the skeptic is unable to set aside.
Those are good points. Partly this relates to salvation and the notion that only "true" Christians will receive salvation. My Christian background was Episcopalian with some brief exposure to the born-again/charismatic/evangelical denominations and a couple of years of Eastern Orthodox more recently. So even when I was a Christian I thought of salvation as a universal process that would eventually save everybody. So I imagined some people were more earnest than others as Christians, but I didn't imagine this poof-bang - instant transition from unsaved to saved. @savedbygrace71 probably does see salvation as an instant transition, because that is the common view in many churches.

I also agree that the process of becoming an ex-Christian usually isn't quick and it often isn't motivated by philosophy or other forms of reasoning (but sometimes it is). Usually the reasoning comes later to give a person comfort that departing Christianity was the correct decision.
 
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savedbygrace71

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Those are good points. Partly this relates to salvation and the notion that only "true" Christians will receive salvation. My Christian background was Episcopalian with some brief exposure to the born-again/charismatic/evangelical denominations and a couple of years of Eastern Orthodox more recently. So even when I was a Christian I thought of salvation as a universal process that would eventually save everybody. So I imagined some people were more earnest than others as Christians, but I didn't imagine this poof-bang - instant transition from unsaved to saved. @savedbygrace71 probably does see salvation as an instant transition, because that is the common view in many churches.

I also agree that the process of becoming an ex-Christian usually isn't quick and it often isn't motivated by philosophy or other forms of reasoning (but sometimes it is). Usually the reasoning comes later to give a person comfort that departing Christianity was the correct decision.
I find it sort of amusing to see an atheist try to explain salvation. How can you sit there and type about what salvation is when you don't even believe in the Almighty Creator?
Psalms 53:1
 
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