The Gospel

daq · Aug 2, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Just a few thoughts for all here to consider

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ( 1 Cor 6:9,10)

"19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."(Galatians 5:19-21)

and where do they end up?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

and how long will they be there for?

"...cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

LoveofTruth said:
and the gospel is

"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:" (1 Cor 15"1-5)

and notice only those who received/believed this will be saved. All unbelievers will end up where?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

and what if someone preaches another gospel?

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-8)

Laws work the same whether you receive them from Torah or from Paul. So then, any one of those things you do not do, by your own strictly literal interpretation, it will be the lake of fire for you, and for all eternity, by your own strictly literal interpretation. Whew, it is getting hot in here already. :angel:

anonymouswho said:
I want to ask you something, as well as my other friends; 2KnowHim, ron4shua, jugghead, stevenfrancis, LoveofTruth, and whoever else I may have spoke to. If you don't feel comfortable discussing this here, then please PM me. I would like to know your interpretation of the following verse, and what this means to you concerning the Gospel:

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:26

Instead of making bold statements I would rather begin by asking a few questions that may point in several directions without necessarily taking a stand myself either way concerning whatever might be the answers you might arrive at from the Scriptures:

1) Where does Yeshua actually claim himself to be the Son of man?
2) Why does Yeshua always speak of the Son of man in the third person?
3) The Son of man has ascended and descended the heavens, (John 3:13).
4) Where therefore do we read of Yeshua descending from the heavens?
5) Who are the "we" and the "our" in John 3:11?

John 3:11
11. Verily, verily, I say unto you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness.

daq · Aug 2, 2015

jugghead said:
This is just a simple understanding but it was how it started with me ...

It was December 12, 2005 that I experienced the circumcision of the heart (the renting of the veil), but not until 9 years and 47 days later (February 7, 2015) did I hear for the first time directly from Him "You are my Son", I was so overwhelmed with His love I could not help but have my eyes overflow with tears. (Which I find no coincidence that 9 is the number of judgment (9 years) and that 47 was how old I was at the time of this experience (9 years 47 days)).

Because He Himself is our inheritance, we receive (are given) also everything He possesses ... but knowing that it was Him who we sought after not what He possessed ... and since we receive (have been freely given) also ... everything He has ... we have been given the authority to execute judgment.

This word "judgment" in its simplest form is "a tribunal" ... it is a court setting that He brings us into to hear both sides of a case, He puts us in the seat of the judge and presents His case (persuades us [walking in faith, walking in His persuasion]) that what He will not only tell us ... but also show us ... is the truth.

We have completely believed what men have taught us as truth, that was hearing the case from the POV of men ... He then ... HIMSELF ... through Christ by His Spirit (three cords)... presents His side of the case.

But, when we know that what we are being told and shown by the Father through Christ by His Spirit ... there is no way we can even disagree with what is shown us and that is because it becomes part of our being ... what is told and shown us comes alive in us ... Christ comes alive in us ... and by that we have these things (Life/authority/Sonship) added to us (a better understanding of these things) because we first sought Him not what He possessed.

Hi jugghead,

Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You replied while I was writing my post above but I see that you likewise testify what you have seen and heard. Beautiful.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

daq said:
Laws work the same whether you receive them from Torah or from Paul. So then, any one of those things you do not do, by your own strictly literal interpretation, it will be the lake of fire for you, and for all eternity, by your own strictly literal interpretation. Whew, it is getting hot in here already.

I am not going to the lake of fire as long as I abide in Christ through faith . If a believer abides in him by faith then they have Christ dwelling in them and they are now able to overcome the world the flesh and the devil. For God now works in them to will and to do they are part of the body of Christ and He is the head that works effectually in believers. This is not the same as a man in the flesh and unbelief trying to establish his own righteousness .

But if a believer has an evil heart of unbelief on departing from the living God them he also can go to the lake of fire for ever and ever never to escape or be out of the judgement if it.

This is one reason men should fear the terror of the Lord .

2 Corinthians 5:11 >>
Knowing therefore the terror ofthe Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I wonder if this verse is ever read in Iniversalist groups?

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Yes me too.. Most Traditionalists read "eternal punishment" as "eternal punishing" as an ongoing thing. The destuction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the Results are permanent. Eternal often refers to the permanence of the Result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Understanding this also gives The Lake of fire a Purpose of Redemption rather than an ongoing torment. Once it has accomplished it's purpose, the results of it is Life. Death is swallowed up in victory... "Life".
If our Father did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them, then I'm sure He did not come to torment them forever either.
And if Jesus rebuked his own disciples for wanting to call down fire from Heaven to destroy men, then what must He think of those who say they know that He will not only destroy, but then torment them forever. I'll tell you what He thinks, they know not what spirit they are of. And this is why we try to persuade men from this horrible picture of our Father, God is Love, and this sort of thing never came into His mind, only the carnal mind of men, which is God's enemy, I know because I was once in this place also. We speak from experience not to just use the word as a Sword against our brothers and sisters, but we speak out of The Love we have been shown to us by our Father.

Blessings my Brother

No this is not accurate. With eternal damnation and eternal fire and torment comes the words for ever and ever. Your interpretation is very wrong. Yes we can say the results will be permanent, but permanent torment and horror and wailing and nashing of teeth and fire kind of permanent state,but the word eternal means

Eternal in Greek

from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

You said this also,

"It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results."

But

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The word "eternal here is the same word as,

Eternal in Greek

from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

You greatly error again.

2KnowHim said:

Understanding this also gives The Lake of fire a Purpose of Redemption rather than an ongoing torment. Once it has accomplished it's purpose, the results of it is Life. Death is swallowed up in victory... "Life".

Click to expand...

No you misunderstand again. The death that will be overcome is only to those who are in eternal life in Christ. believers have no fear of death and no fear of torment. Unbelievers do have to fear torment and fire and hell forever. Who the letters are speaking to is very important in this discussion.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Love of Truth..
Let me show you a mystery......

To be Carnally minded IS Death...

To be carnally minded is to not be spiritually minded . To be spiritually minded is life and peace. You greatly misunderstand here again. The lake of fire is not the salvation gospel that you make it to be. You act as if those who go through the lake of fire will get out one day and then they could say.
"I was saved by the lake of fire" No that would be another gospel and make a person condemned and cursed to teach such things. That would deny the need for Jesus to die for men. The lake of fire will not bring men to a spiritual mind.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

To all,

Many try to argue that "How could a loving God send someone to hell and the lake of fire?, this would not be a loving God"

This is based upon no scriptures but , like the atheist and unbelieving world, they base it on their own minds and feelings. many do into understand the Justice and Holy Love of God. They divide Gods character and make two different Gods. But to understand his love and mercy judgement and wrath, is to see the true God and the need of Jesus Christ the saviour.

"22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God"(Romans 11:22)

Some might even say, "How could a loving God even send His Son to die a horrible death?

Some do not see verses like this as clearly as they are

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord

Mt 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"

"aion" in Greek forever

daq · Aug 2, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
To all,

Many try to argue that "How could a loving God send someone to hell and the lake of fire?, this would not be a loving God"

This is based upon no scriptures but , like the atheist and unbelieving world, they base it on their own minds and feelings. many do into understand the Justice and Holy Love of God. They divide Gods character and make two different Gods. But to understand his love and mercy judgement and wrath, is to see the true God and the need of Jesus Christ the saviour.

Ah, I see, this is really your platform "To all", huh?

Well I suppose when in Rome do as the Romans then?

To all,

The poster above is mixing goats, devils, and demons with people, (as already shown previously in this thread) when the Scripture clearly tells us through Peter that we are to call no man unclean, (Acts 10:28 wherein is the same word used for unclean spirits in the Gospel accounts). In the above quotation the poster is already beginning to equate those here that disagree with his viewpoint as if they are "atheists and the unbelieving world", and no doubt, we are not far off from the point where the same will be calling others here "workers of the devil", "deceived by Satan", and all manner of evil speak which the carnal man does when he cannot show what he believes to be true from the Scripture.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

daq said:
The poster above is mixing goats, devils, and demons with people, (as already shown previously in this thread)

and yet God shows us that Devils will be mixed with people in the lake of fire or at least fallen angels and people and where are the lost going now? And where are the devils as well?

daq said:
when the Scripture clearly tells us through Peter that we are to call no man unclean, (Acts 10:28 wherein is the same word used for unclean spirits in the Gospel accounts). In the above quotation the poster is already beginning to equate those here that disagree with his viewpoint as if they are "atheists and the unbelieving world"

What? The reference to unclean animals in Acts 10 was About eating unclean food which Peter was still struggling with and God also used this to show that he can eat with Gentiles and that the Gentiles are also part of the salvation

As far as "unclean" have you not read in the Nrw Testament?,

"1 Corinthians 7:14 >>
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. "

And another correction to your thinking is this verse,

"Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

Love of Truth,
You don't believe that the fire has anything to do with believers and there are no scriptures to say so ha? Haven't you ever read this beautiful passage in Isa......

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Or haven't you ever read about the three men in Daniel that went into the firey furnace?
Dan 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Dan 3:20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

These were Righteous men, and even they went through the fire.
And if we are to be created in His image and likeness then we too Will/Must go through the fire, it is a Divine Purifying Fire, that we are purged in.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
To be carnally minded is to not be spiritually minded .

True, but the point I was making (which you know, but didn't want to agree with me on) is...
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
The lake of fire is not the salvation gospel that you make it to be. You act as if those who go through the lake of fire will get out one day and then they could say.
"I was saved by the lake of fire" No that would be another gospel

Is Paul preaching another Gospel when he says...
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Love of Truth,
You don't believe that the fire has anything to do with believers and there are no scriptures to say so ha? Haven't you ever read this beautiful passage in Isa......

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Or haven't you ever read about the three men in Daniel that went into the firey furnace?
Dan 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Dan 3:20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

These were Righteous men, and even they went through the fire.
And if we are to be created in His image and likeness then we too Will/Must go through the fire, it is a Divine Purifying Fire, that we are purged in.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

You are creating a straw man argument when you say that I dont believe believers have anything to do with fire. I never said that. I speak of the lake of fire, not the fire searching eyes of the Lord, or our faith more prescious than gold tried by fire, or the the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire. I am not speaking of that.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
True, but the point I was making (which you know, but didn't want to agree with me on) is...
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

To be carnally minded means they don't have the mind of Christ. and to be spiritually minded means believers do. In the lake of fire this will not give them the spiritual mind. The lake of fire is not the gospel of their salvation as some wrongly seem to imply. To even suggest so is a horrific false gospel and all who preach such are cursed according to paul Galatians 1.

No man can ever say ."thank goodness i went through the lake of fire and got saved and spiritually minded that way". This is absurd even to think of this.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Is Paul preaching another Gospel when he says...
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Nothing to do with what you make it. The every man spoken of there is ONLY believers in Christ who have the foundation through faith. As long as they abide in Christ and have the foundation they will be saved, but the quality of their works will be judged. Gold silver and prescious stones are not hurt by the fire, but wood hay and stubble will be. You greatly error here.and twist this verse

"11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if any man build upon this foundation" (1 Corinthians 3:11,12)

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
You are creating a straw man argument when you say that I dont believe believers have anything to do with fire. I never said that. I speak of the lake of fire, not the fire searching eyes of the Lord, or our faith more prescious than gold tried by fire, or the the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire. I am not speaking of that.

Ok, sorry, now I understand what you mean, you don't think they are the same fire. Gottcha.
but they are.

LoveofTruth said:
No man can ever say ."thank goodness i went through the lake of fire and got saved and spiritually minded that way". This is absurd even to think of this.

Only to those that do not understand The Power of The fire or it's purpose.

LoveofTruth said:
Nothing to do with what you make it. The every man spoken of there is ONLY believers in Christ who have the foundation through faith. As long as they abide in Christ and have the foundation they will be saved, but the quality of their works will be judged. Gold silver and prescious stones are not hurt by the fire, but wood hay and stubble will be. You greatly error here.and twist this verse

Yes, now your getting it, they won't be hurt by the fire, but will suffer loss, isn't that what Revelation says here?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Isn't the second death in the lake of fire? It doesn't say we won't go through it, it just says we won't be hurt by it.
Same fire, Same one, that is prepared for the devil and his messengers, which is the wood hay and stubble thats burn up in it.

LoveofTruth · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Ok, sorry, now I understand what you mean, you don't think they are the same fire. Gottcha.
but they are.

Only to those that do not understand The Power of The fire or it's purpose.

Yes, now your getting it, they won't be hurt by the fire, but will suffer loss, isn't that what Revelation says here?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Isn't the second death in the lake of fire? It doesn't say we won't go through it, it just says we won't be hurt by it.
Same fire, Same one, that is prepared for the devil and his messengers, which is the wood hay and stubble thats burn up in it.

No, No, mixed up again,

Read these verses and consider

"
Revelation 2:11
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Meaning that they will live forever and not die again or any second death. The believers will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

First resurrection, is to ever be with the Lord. No second death at all, and no being seperated from the Lord in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Believers do not go to helll or the lake of fire thats because ,

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

No believer will go to the lake of fire. Believers are not the unbelievers who are in the lake of fire. Believers will ever be with the Lord.

Notice carefully that the second death is the lake of fire and only unbelievers and other type of sins are in there, no "BELIEVERS" are going there.

This is so basic I marvel that some can see it any other way and try to twist scripture so horribly to escape the reality of the lake of fire.

anonymouswho · Aug 2, 2015

daq said:
Instead of making bold statements I would rather begin by asking a few questions that may point in several directions without necessarily taking a stand myself either way concerning whatever might be the answers you might arrive at from the Scriptures:

Hello my friend, and thank you for asking me questions rather than simply asserting what you believe. That means a lot to me, and it's something I will remember next time I create a thread. I am only going to answer with Scripture, because I think you understand what I'm saying (regardless if you believe it or not). I hope I don't get too carried away with bolded and underlined words.

daq said:
1) Where does Yeshua actually claim himself to be the Son of man?

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" Matthew 16:14

"And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought." Mark 9:12

"Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. " Luke 9:22

I also believe that in the verse I first asked about, Yeshua refers to Himself as the Son of Man.

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."John 5:26

I believe there is something deeper here, but I will only answer the questions you ask.

daq said:
2) Why does Yeshua always speak of the Son of man in the third person?

I'm sorry, this is is going to be long. I will capitalize my answer:

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with (from) thine own self [with] the glory which I had with (from) thee before the world was.
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17

daq said:
3) The Son of man has ascended and descended the heavens, (John 3:13).
4) Where therefore do we read of Yeshua descending from the heavens?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" John 3:13

καὶ (and) οδεὶς (no man)ἀναβέβηκεν (hath ascended) ες (unto) τὸν (the) ορανὸν (heaven) εἰ(if) μὴ (not) οῦ(the) έκ (from out) το (the) ορανο (heaven)ῦ καταβάς (hath descended), υ (the)ἱὸς (son of) τοῦ(-) ἀνθρώπου (man)

"[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, WHAT IS IT but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

daq said:
5) Who are the "we" and the "our" in John 3:11?

John 3:11
11. Verily, verily, I say unto you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness.

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:6

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:10

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matthew 13:16

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:12

I hope you understand what I'm saying. If I'm wrong, then please by all means rebuke me publicly. But I feel this is the only way it can be. Thank you and God bless you my friend.

daq · Aug 3, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
and yet God shows us that Devils will be mixed with people in the lake of fire or at least fallen angels and people and where are the lost going now? And where are the devils as well?

Hi LoveofTruth, it appears you have not understood what all has been said. The tares grow up with the wheat, which you are, and therefore they are mixed already and must be purged, (and that is by fire). As already said: goats and tares are essentially the same analogy, Esau was "hairy" or "shaggy" which is HSN#8163 "sa`iyr"-devil-goat-satyr in Genesis 27:11, (see also the symbolic usages of the same word in Leviticus 16:10, Leviticus 17:7, Isaiah 34:14, and Daniel 8:21).

Also I quote this previous post of yours again here for reference and will answer the remainder of your current post below after quoting the next portion:

LoveofTruth said:
and the gospel is

"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:" (1 Cor 15"1-5)

and notice only those who received/believed this will be saved. All unbelievers will end up where?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

and what if someone preaches another gospel?

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-8)

LoveofTruth said:
What? The reference to unclean animals in Acts 10 was About eating unclean food which Peter was still struggling with and God also used this to show that he can eat with Gentiles and that the Gentiles are also part of the salvation

As far as "unclean" have you not read in the Nrw Testament?,

"1 Corinthians 7:14 >>
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. "

And another correction to your thinking is this verse,

"Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

One must ignore the overall context of the Acts 10 passage to respond in the way in which you have responded. The vision has nothing to do with eating physical food but rather testimony, and that is, Jews receiving the testimony of Gentiles which was until that time forbidden among the Jews. Peter is told to "Rise, kill, and eat" and this has nothing to do with physical food as Peter later comes to understand. It has to do with Cornelius and his household whom God explains to Peter have already been cleansed. You therefore left out large portions of the "Gospel of Paul" when you wrote at the top of one of your previous posts which I have quoted again herein for reference, where you said, "and the Gospel is". Who therefore is preaching a "different Gospel" if you left out critical portions from even Paul himself, such as Ephesians 2:11-19, where Paul clearly states that Yeshua has broken down the middle wall of partitioning and made a way for the Gentiles to enter into covenant relationship with God at Golgotha? at the cross of Messiah? Luke writes in the Acts passage by the mouth of Peter that some of this vision is interpreted for us when he quotes the words of Peter to Cornelius and his household:

Acts 10:9-16 KJV
9. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10. And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11. And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12. Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Since it was done three times we may not be given the exact words which were spoken every time, or the same thing may have been stated all three times, we simply do not know: but we do know the interpretation of what Peter learned by what he says to Cornelius and his household. It is therefore undeniable that the passage I referenced previously to you is indeed part of the interpretation of the dream-vision which Peter received; and by the mouth of Peter himself Luke gives us this portion of the interpretation:

Acts 10:25-29 KJV
25. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

This is the statement from the dream-vision:

"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

This is the interpretation by the mouth of Peter himself:

"God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

When and where therefore were Cornelius and his household cleansed?

Here is another critical portion of the "Gospel of Paul" you did not mention:

2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

2 Corinthians 5:14 RSV
14. For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.

2 Corinthians 5:14 NJB
14. For the love of Christ overwhelms us when we consider that if one man died for all, then all have died;

2 Corinthians 5:14 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
14. for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,

And now the love of Messiah compels us; having thus judged, that if one died for all, then surely all died in that Great Day of Atonement at Golgotha: for if the light of every man was slain, then every man likewise died; yea, even every living soul in the sea died . . .

daq · Aug 3, 2015

anonymouswho said:
Hello my friend, and thank you for asking me questions rather than simply asserting what you believe. That means a lot to me, and it's something I will remember next time I create a thread. I am only going to answer with Scripture, because I think you understand what I'm saying (regardless if you believe it or not). I hope I don't get too carried away with bolded and underlined words.

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" Matthew 16:14

*Snip*

I also believe that in the verse I first asked about, Yeshua refers to Himself as the Son of Man.

Hi anonymouswho, how about let's concentrate on just the first passage which you have quoted for now; for if there is a broken link in your chain, (and especially at the beginning of the chain) then everything which follows after the broken link must be reassessed and reevaluated after the chain has been repaired. The verse you have provided, Matthew 16:13, is in dispute:

Matthew 16:13 KJV
13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Matthew 16:13 ASV
13. Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?

By the simple context it does not appear that Yeshua is asking about himself because he then questions his disciples concerning himself in what follows in the same passage:

Matthew 16:13-15 ASV
13. Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?
14. And they said, Some say John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

Do you have another text where Yeshua claims to be the Son of man?

ron4shua · Aug 3, 2015

http://biblehub.com/isr/john/8.htm

51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

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