Necessary Evil

ChristsSoldier115

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Is necessary evil even a Christian principle? Take for example if you lied to save somebody's life. Is that justified? We like to think so, correct? But is it right none the less?

I don't think it is, but then I think about.... the folks that saved so many Jews lives lying to protect them in Nazi Germany. Or abolitionists lying to free slaves.

I honestly do not have an answer. thoughts?
 
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fhansen

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Is necessary evil even a Christian principle? Take for example if you lied to save somebody's life. Is that justified? We like to think so, correct? But is it right none the less?

I don't think it is, but then I think about.... the folks that saved so many Jews lives lying to protect them in Nazi Germany. Or abolitionists lying to free slaves.

I honestly do not have an answer. thoughts?
The truth can never be elevated and worshipped and revered enough; to value it as we should requires an ongoing conscious effort IMO, with the help of grace. And yet, in a fallen world, compromises are made; sometimes we're forced to choose the lesser of two evils.
 
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Gordon Wright

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Truth is precious; don't degrade it by offering it to the unworthy. Pearls before swine, as Jesus said.

David dissembled. Esther manipulated. And Ehud... just a jackknife has
Ehud dear, and he keeps it out of sight.

But never lie to yourself, never lie to God, and never slander the innocent. Also, never withhold the truth from those who can handle it.

Lies can do terrible damage. So can truth. But truth generally destroys what needs destroying. Lies destroy what should be preserved. If you're heartless enough, go around telling the truth and let the seeds of a better world sprout from the scorched earth.
 
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Emmy

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Dear ChristsSoldier115. We all know God`s Law: " What Man sows he will also reap," it is God`s Way to teach us to become as God wants us to be. In Galatians 6: 7-8: we read: " God will not be mocked," we always reap what we sow. God knows all we say, or do, God knows our hearts and God knows what we truly believe, and we will be judged accordingly. Our strongest weapons are Prayer and Love, and if we are in a situation as the one you describe, talk to God all the time, and then be lead by God. To lie is a sin, and we should always be lead by God in all we say or do.
God is in charge, and if we do not have time for a long prayer, God will know. I say this with love, ChristsSoldier.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ
 
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miamited

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Hi CS,

Bad news. Giving false testimony is against God's commands.

Good news. Jesus already paid the price for those situations where you may feel that you have to.

If we ask for His forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive. My sin will be forgiven in the same way that I have forgiven others.

So, two expectations for the person caught in a dilemma where they feel they are doing good for someone else in giving a false testimony. Ask the Father to forgive them and be sure you have forgiven all who have sinned against you. I believe that Paul gives a fairly good example of this process. He cries out that he does the things he doesn't want to do and doesn't do the things that he should do. It seems obvious to me that there are going to be times in a believer's life where they won't/don't do the right thing. But, Paul ends his complaint with praise for Jesus. That he has provided the necessary forgiveness for our sin.

So, I don't necessarily find that a born again believer who has committed sin, is in jeopardy of not being saved on the day of God's righteous judgment. Repeated, continued sin without guilt of conscience is a different matter.

God bless you
In Christ, Ted
 
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fhansen

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Hi CS,

Bad news. Giving false testimony is against God's commands.

Good news. Jesus already paid the price for those situations where you may feel that you have to.

If we ask for His forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive. My sin will be forgiven in the same way that I have forgiven others.
I really don't believe this can ever be the right approach-to deliberately sin in anticipation of God's forgiveness. JMO, but I think we'd be presuming a bit too much there. :)
 
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miamited

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I really don't believe this can ever be the right approach-to deliberately sin in anticipation of God's forgiveness. JMO, but I think we'd be presuming a bit too much there. :)

Hi fhansen,

The issue is always the heart of the believer. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to 'deliberately' sin and hope for forgiveness after the fact, but...

We do sin! It seems apparent that the Scriptures, by this particular passage of Paul's writing, allows that we can still sin after being born again. I don't mean 'can still' as in making a deliberate decision to sin, but just that we do still sin. Now, when I weigh Paul's words against the words of John that say no one who continues to sin has known the Lord, I am left with an understanding that John is talking about 'deliberate and conscienceless' sin. In other words, if we know Jesus, we cannot continue to sin without consciousness that we are sinning and just go on with our life the way we always have. I find myself often asking for my Father's forgiveness for some action or thought, that fairly quickly comes to me that such was a sin against God's commands.

To more specifically answer the OP, I would say that no, it is not right, but yes, it can/will be forgiven if the heart of the guilty one is right with his Creator. David lied after the Scriptures seem to clearly tell us that he was a man after God's own heart, and in the end, we are led to understand that David was still a righteous man as seen by God. Joshua encouraged Rahab to sin and tell the people looking for them that she hadn't seen them. Abraham lied at least twice about his relationship to Sarah, and yet, God constantly tells us that Abraham was a righteous man before God.

Finally, we have to assess Jesus' words in explaining the whole of the law in Israel. Jesus said that the number one most important law was to love God with everything that we are. The second, he said, was to treat others as we ourselves would want to be treated. So, if the person who hid the Jews loved God with all their being, wouldn't they also be keeping the second commandment. Surely, if the situation was reversed and the Germans were hunting for the one who hid the Jews and their capture would mean fairly certain death, wouldn't they want the Jews to do the same thing for them? So, in not being forthright with the Germans, were they not treating the Jews in the same way that they themselves would want to be treated under the same circumstance? Jesus said that by obeying these two laws that one would keep the whole of the law and the prophets.

Of course, there is, in this situation, personal gain for the one lying to the Germans. Even had they given up the Jews hiding in their home, the Germans would likely have drug them out also because they had participated in hiding them in the first place. The Germans of the Nazi era were a cold and murderous bunch of folk. The tales I've heard and the stories I've read allow that the liar would have been as much in danger as those they were hiding from retaliation for their actions.

Just curious what you would have done under the circumstances? Would you have just flat out refused to give refuge to the Jews? Or would you have given refuge, but if someone asked about them, just opened the door and said sure, let me show you where they are? Is that what you believe Rahab should have done? Just open the door to the searchers and said sure they're upstairs hiding, come with me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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fhansen

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Hi fhansen,

The issue is always the heart of the believer. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to 'deliberately' sin and hope for forgiveness after the fact, but...

We do sin! It seems apparent that the Scriptures, by this particular passage of Paul's writing, allows that we can still sin after being born again. I don't mean 'can still' as in making a deliberate decision to sin, but just that we do still sin. Now, when I weigh Paul's words against the words of John that say no one who continues to sin has known the Lord, I am left with an understanding that John is talking about 'deliberate and conscienceless' sin. In other words, if we know Jesus, we cannot continue to sin without consciousness that we are sinning and just go on with our life the way we always have. I find myself often asking for my Father's forgiveness for some action or thought, that fairly quickly comes to me that such was a sin against God's commands.

To more specifically answer the OP, I would say that no, it is not right, but yes, it can/will be forgiven if the heart of the guilty one is right with his Creator. David lied after the Scriptures seem to clearly tell us that he was a man after God's own heart, and in the end, we are led to understand that David was still a righteous man as seen by God. Joshua encouraged Rahab to sin and tell the people looking for them that she hadn't seen them. Abraham lied at least twice about his relationship to Sarah, and yet, God constantly tells us that Abraham was a righteous man before God.

Finally, we have to assess Jesus' words in explaining the whole of the law in Israel. Jesus said that the number one most important law was to love God with everything that we are. The second, he said, was to treat others as we ourselves would want to be treated. So, if the person who hid the Jews loved God with all their being, wouldn't they also be keeping the second commandment. Surely, if the situation was reversed and the Germans were hunting for the one who hid the Jews and their capture would mean fairly certain death, wouldn't they want the Jews to do the same thing for them? So, in not being forthright with the Germans, were they not treating the Jews in the same way that they themselves would want to be treated under the same circumstance? Jesus said that by obeying these two laws that one would keep the whole of the law and the prophets.

Of course, there is, in this situation, personal gain for the one lying to the Germans. Even had they given up the Jews hiding in their home, the Germans would likely have drug them out also because they had participated in hiding them in the first place. The Germans of the Nazi era were a cold and murderous bunch of folk. The tales I've heard and the stories I've read allow that the liar would have been as much in danger as those they were hiding from retaliation for their actions.

Just curious what you would have done under the circumstances? Would you have just flat out refused to give refuge to the Jews? Or would you have given refuge, but if someone asked about them, just opened the door and said sure, let me show you where they are? Is that what you believe Rahab should have done? Just open the door to the searchers and said sure they're upstairs hiding, come with me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
As I said in my first post, "...in a fallen world, compromises are made; sometimes we're forced to choose the lesser of two evils." But in my opinion, as we struggle against sin, striving to overcome our own fallen natures with the help of grace, we must first of all become very serious about opposing sin and lies; we must acknowledge them as evil IOW, and seek to avoid them however we can, even as we may presume that we'll fail at times-and that forgiveness will always be at hand when we do. Otherwise I think we can run the risk of getting too comfortable with compromising the truth, as our fallen natures and the world we live in already do by nature.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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But that sure sounds an awful lot like "those who call evil good and good evil" Is 5:20

The Bible teaches that we don't have the pure concept of good and evil; we have a very corrupted version of it, adulterated by our fallen wills.
 
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fhansen

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The Bible teaches that we don't have the pure concept of good and evil; we have a very corrupted version of it, adulterated by our fallen wills.
But what does that mean, that humans are simple brutes, unable to truly discern right and wrong, and morally irresponsible/non-culpable as a result?
 
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Willtor

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Is necessary evil even a Christian principle? Take for example if you lied to save somebody's life. Is that justified? We like to think so, correct? But is it right none the less?

I don't think it is, but then I think about.... the folks that saved so many Jews lives lying to protect them in Nazi Germany. Or abolitionists lying to free slaves.

I honestly do not have an answer. thoughts?

Bonhoeffer talks about this in Ethics. The very last chapter is titled something like, "What is meant by telling the truth?" Kant says if the murderer comes to your house and asks whether your friend is hiding there (and your friend _is_ hiding there), you have to admit (albeit, reluctantly) that your friend is. Bonhoeffer argues differently, saying that honesty, itself, can be raised from virtue to idol when "truth" is confused with "fact." I don't remember the exact quote, but he says something like, "People who confuse truth with the cold facts, don't understand that the truth is not cold."

Now, if you lie, and if God doesn't approve, you have no excuse, he observes. But... you have no excuse if you were wrong to relate the facts as they are. How's that for an existential crisis? ;)

To my mind, the whole book builds to that chapter, and the framework he builds is quite compelling.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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But what does that mean, that humans are simple brutes, unable to truly discern right and wrong, and morally irresponsible/non-culpable as a result?

God works in mysterious ways- sometimes things happen, which He wills, that we do not understand- it is because we are not so adept in the righteousness He knows. We are inept, essentially.
 
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miamited

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As I said in my first post, "...in a fallen world, compromises are made; sometimes we're forced to choose the lesser of two evils." But in my opinion, as we struggle against sin, striving to overcome our own fallen natures with the help of grace, we must first of all become very serious about opposing sin and lies; we must acknowledge them as evil IOW, and seek to avoid them however we can, even as we may presume that we'll fail at times-and that forgiveness will always be at hand when we do. Otherwise I think we can run the risk of getting too comfortable with compromising the truth, as our fallen natures and the world we live in already do by nature.

Hi fhansen,

I agree. What would you have done?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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fhansen

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Hi fhansen,

I agree. What would you have done?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Chose the lesser of two evils and withheld the truth from (lied to) those who would use that knowledge to commit evil. By deterring a greater evil, I would therefore be performing a greater good. With love as the ultimate guide for our actions, we can discern whether or not someone has the right to have the truth revealed to them.
 
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fhansen

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God works in mysterious ways- sometimes things happen, which He wills, that we do not understand- it is because we are not so adept in the righteousness He knows. We are inept, essentially.
Nah, an adult with sound mind is only relatively inept at most-imperfect, limited, yet quite capable of discerning right and wrong and therefore quite culpable for wrong actions. And this is why even human society holds each other accountable for our actions. And this is also why we're capable of such reactions as moral outrage or righteous indignation; we know what justice and injustice are; that knowledge is innate. God is not the author of sin/evil. We can't say "God made me do it".
 
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miamited

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Chose the lesser of two evils and withheld the truth from (lied to) those who would use that knowledge to commit evil. By deterring a greater evil, I would therefore be performing a greater good. With love as the ultimate guide for our actions, we can discern whether or not someone has the right to have the truth revealed to them.

Hi fhansen,

So, you do agree that, under certain circumstances, a born again believer can give false testimony. Now, the final question is: Are you then doomed to eternal condemnation or will that sin be forgiven?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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fhansen

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Hi fhansen,

So, you do agree that, under certain circumstances, a born again believer can give false testimony. Now, the final question is: Are you then doomed to eternal condemnation or will that sin be forgiven?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Only God can judge. IMO He wouldn't even judge it to be a sin from the overall perspective because if we failed to withhold the truth in these cases, we'd be breaking the greatest commandments: failing to love, failing to live and obey by the Spirit. All other commandments or law are supposed to be based on and intended to conform to the greatest.

If we lived in a perfect world, there'd be no greater or lesser goods and evils to choose between because there'd be no evil. In this world, choices between the two inevitably arise and we take the righteous path by choosing the greatest good when that's the only option.
 
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