Acts 15: Circumcision and the Law

obedience or coercion?

Lulav said:

obedience or coercion?

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Where are you drawing the line? Be careful, it might come back to bite you.

Open Heart said:

Where are you drawing the line? Be careful, it might come back to bite you.

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Shall we start with Torquemada?

Lulav said:

Shall we start with Torquemada?

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I didn't ask you for a person. I asked you for the line. Try to put it into words.

Open Heart said:

Thank goodness MJ seminaries are opening!

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All that means is a new set of false doctrines. Any large group like that becomes a corporation which by design is centered on politics and money, not Yahweh.

pat34lee said:

All that means is a new set of false doctrines. Any large group like that becomes a corporation which by design is centered on politics and money, not Yahweh.

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Ever notice how some people are unhappy no matter what happens?

Why don't you tell us how YOU think rabbis should get the training they need?

Steve Petersen said:

Actually, you will find the sages opined that one should not be overly meticulous with converts, but to give them a few light and a few heavy commandments at first. I think this is entirely in line with Acts 15.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/proselyte.html

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Wasn't the whole point of the Jerusalem Council to discuss whether or not the Gentiles were to be regarded as "converts" to begin with? And the conclusion was that they weren't converts, having received the Spirit already?

Gregory Wilson said:

Hello ContraMundum. I have a disagreement about the above, because the whole Law was to the Jews, and so the whole law, unles some parts doesn't apply for some reason, is for the gentiles as well - because Jesus said whoEVER keeps and teaches the least of the laws would be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Thanks,

Greg

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Sounds like you agree with me. Perhaps the issue is over which laws pertain to whom.

Open Heart said:

Ever notice how some people are unhappy no matter what happens?

Why don't you tell us how YOU think rabbis should get the training they need?

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First, there should be no Rabbis. No popes either. No celibate priesthood or nuns. The bible is specific on all these, but people don't seem to care.

If you want to teach religion, by all means, go to college or cemetery / seminary. Most preachers come out of them unbelievers though.

If Yahweh actually calls you to preach or minister, he will tell you what to say, just as he did with Moses and with every prophet. If he didn't call you, then you shouldn't be preaching, even if you make six figures doing it. Actually, if you make that much and aren't giving most of it away, you have a problem anyway.

pat34lee said:

First, there should be no Rabbis. No popes either. No celibate priesthood or nuns. The bible is specific on all these, but people don't seem to care.

If you want to teach religion, by all means, go to college or cemetery / seminary. Most preachers come out of them unbelievers though.

If Yahweh actually calls you to preach or minister, he will tell you what to say, just as he did with Moses and with every prophet. If he didn't call you, then you shouldn't be preaching, even if you make six figures doing it. Actually, if you make that much and aren't giving most of it away, you have a problem anyway.

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So from your post I gather that you want unlearned people teaching you.

pat34lee said:

First, there should be no Rabbis. No popes either. No celibate priesthood or nuns. The bible is specific on all these, but people don't seem to care.

If you want to teach religion, by all means, go to college or cemetery / seminary. Most preachers come out of them unbelievers though.

If Yahweh actually calls you to preach or minister, he will tell you what to say, just as he did with Moses and with every prophet. If he didn't call you, then you shouldn't be preaching, even if you make six figures doing it. Actually, if you make that much and aren't giving most of it away, you have a problem anyway.

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Pat old boy....go and think about that post a little. Pray first. You're REALLY judgmental, negative and full of broad overstatements lately. You just seem very bitter.

Open Heart said:

So from your post I gather that you want unlearned people teaching you.

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Would you call Moses unlearned? Yeshua? Other than childhood learning, all the disciples got was about a year of following Yeshua.

I would rather have someone who couldn't read, but knows Yah's will teach me than a seminary grad who believes that most of Genesis is fables and there was no garden, flood or exodus from Egypt.

ContraMundum said:

Pat old boy....go and think about that post a little. Pray first. You're REALLY judgmental, negative and full of broad overstatements lately. You just seem very bitter.

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No, actually just stating facts. Seminaries don't teach the bible. They teach theology particular to a certain denomination.

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/seminaryeducation.php

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/roddreher/2010/05/how-seminary-ruins-ones-faith.html

pat34lee said:

Would you call Moses unlearned? Yeshua? Other than childhood learning, all the disciples got was about a year of following Yeshua.

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You don't know that at all! Moses was certainly taught by God himself, but none of us speaks to God the way Moses did. I have yet to meet a prophet, how about you? Jesus was well taught. He grew up learning Torah. Whether he needed it is another point, he is God and no one else is. The disciples were tutored by the Master himself. They didn't just have the Holy Spirit leading them.

So again, am I correct in my interpretation that you actually prefer to be taught by an unlearned person, since learning just results in people leaving the faith as you say.

pat34lee said:

No, actually just stating facts. Seminaries don't teach the bible. They teach theology particular to a certain denomination.

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/seminaryeducation.php

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/roddreher/2010/05/how-seminary-ruins-ones-faith.html

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None of the Pastors or Preachers I have ever known has lost his faith in Seminary, including my Father.

Open Heart said:

So again, am I correct in my interpretation that you actually prefer to be taught by an unlearned person, since learning just results in people leaving the faith as you say.

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I can see you don't understand what I said. Our institutions have been destroyed from within over the last century or two. Humanists, naturalists and atheists have taken over most colleges and universities, even the theological institutes. They churn out pastors who have been made to believe that evolution is true and that the bible is a lie. This on top of false teaching passed down from the original RCC over the years.
http://www.henrymakow.com/will_newman.html
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism

Open Heart said:

None of the Pastors or Preachers I have ever known has lost his faith in Seminary, including my Father.

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Not all lose their faith. Maybe not even half, but still many do.

pat34lee said:

No, actually just stating facts. Seminaries don't teach the bible. They teach theology particular to a certain denomination.

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/seminaryeducation.php

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/roddreher/2010/05/how-seminary-ruins-ones-faith.html

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Easily the daftest thing spouted on the forum for a decade. Rubbish opinion pieces. And we all know that opinions are like useless belly-buttons- everybody has one.

I went through the seminary system, and not a single person I know who went through it lost his faith or denies the infallibility of the Bible. We have all dedicated our lives to putting up with false accusations like those and we still carry on.

Secondly, you're not thinking straight here. The Bible says that GOD (remember Him? He's in charge of His church) calls some to be teachers (eg. "rabbis") Eph 4:11, and also we see in scripture since the calling of Israel until now that He has also placed some in authority over others. So already we have the Bible telling us that there are a) rabbis/teachers and b) organizational hierarchy. Just the facts, Pat.

Seems to me like you argue largely from an emotional perspective when it comes to an organized religion or church. You just don't like them! Just admit it and stop trying to build an argument for it. All I know is that if you hate the Body you hate the Head. Leave me out of that!

pat34lee said:

Not all lose their faith. Maybe not even half, but still many do.

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People in the PEWS lose their faith too! For all kinds of reasons as well.

pat34lee said:

I can see you don't understand what I said. Our institutions have been destroyed from within over the last century or two. Humanists, naturalists and atheists have taken over most colleges and universities, even the theological institutes. They churn out pastors who have been made to believe that evolution is true and that the bible is a lie. This on top of false teaching passed down from the original RCC over the years.
http://www.henrymakow.com/will_newman.html
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism

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I can't believe you, as a Messianic, is citing a breakaway SDA cult page and propagating the pagan-copycat myth.