So confused...

Albion

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You made a mistake, I do not go to any church. Where did you get that idea.
Madera
I didn't say that you do go to a church at present. But on this "Looking for a Church" forum you wrote this:
I want to find the church that worships and holds onto the doctrines that the earliest churches did.
 
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madera23

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I didn't say that you do go to a church at present. But on this "Looking for a Church" forum you wrote this:
I am sorry, but there was an error somehow, I. Do not go to church, never had .
somtimes my tablet has a mind of its own.
sorry about the mix up.
Have a nice evening.
madera
 
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Job8

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Just my opinion...
It was beginning to sound as though Sproul was the 13th apostle. Good thing it is just your opinion, since Sproul is thorougly committed to Reformed Theology, which has many questionable concepts.

My question to all is why do we need to follow any man's teachings? We have the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us and guide us into all truth. We do not need doctors, and reverends, and rabbis, and so-called theologians and scholars to confuse us. In fact, the child Jesus showed the scholars how deficient they were.
 
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Job8

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I would be curious if you ever looked at the Orthodox Church and if so what errors you felt you saw being made in interpreting the Bible.
Dialogist,
While this was not addressed to me, let's face it. There are many errors within the Orthodox Church which are similar to the RCC. For example, a man-made priesthood. The Bible teaches the priesthood of all believers, and that the shepherds of churches are elders, not priests to whom people confess their sins.
 
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RC1970

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It was beginning to sound as though Sproul was the 13th apostle. Good thing it is just your opinion, since Sproul is thorougly committed to Reformed Theology, which has many questionable concepts.

My question to all is why do we need to follow any man's teachings? We have the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us and guide us into all truth. We do not need doctors, and reverends, and rabbis, and so-called theologians and scholars to confuse us. In fact, the child Jesus showed the scholars how deficient they were.

Well, my mama always said that I was a wide-eyed ignoramus. :scratch:
 
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Job8

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Well, my mama always said that I was a wide-eyed ignoramus. :scratch:
Never mind what your mama had to say. I'm sure she meant well and loved you dearly. But what does God have to say about you? God says that if you ask, He will give you wisdom and lead you into all truth.
 
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RC1970

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Never mind what your mama had to say. I'm sure she meant well and loved you dearly. But what does God have to say about you? God says that if you ask, He will give you wisdom and lead you into all truth.

Why can't God lead me to the truth through R.C. Sproul?

My mama taught me to read and gave me my first Bible. Do you think she had a role in leading me to the truth?

God didn't write the Bible directly, He inspired human beings to write it.

Did Christ not command us to make disciples of all nations?
 
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Dialogist

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Dialogist,
While this was not addressed to me, let's face it. There are many errors within the Orthodox Church which are similar to the RCC. For example, a man-made priesthood. The Bible teaches the priesthood of all believers, and that the shepherds of churches are elders, not priests to whom people confess their sins.

Ok. Thank you for sharing your views with me.

I wouldn't mind exploring this with you if you wish. First, could you let me know which passages in the Bible you are referring to?

Thank you!
 
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Job8

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Why can't God lead me to the truth through R.C. Sproul?
If R.C. Sproul is already committed to certain views that are not supported by Scripture, then you will be led to some of the truth. Here's a quote from Sproul:
I prefer not to use the term limited atonement because it is misleading. I rather speak of definite redemption or definite atonement, which communicates that God the Father designed the work of redemption specifically with a view to providing salvation for the elect, and that Christ died for His sheep and laid down His life for those the Father had given to Him.
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/tulip-and-reformed-theology-limited-atonement/

Does the Bible teach that Christ died ONLY for His sheep, or does the Bible teach that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD? Here's one Scripture that should be enough to tell us that the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD (Jn 1:29; 1 Jn 2:1,2): My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
My mama taught me to read and gave me my first Bible. Do you think she had a role in leading me to the truth?
Absolutely. The Bible is God's truth. But if we go along with the doctrines of men, we will have only some of the truth.
God didn't write the Bible directly, He inspired human beings to write it.
Correct. And he gave them every word which you find in Scripture.
Did Christ not command us to make disciples of all nations?
So once you know th truth, share it with others.
 
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RC1970

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If R.C. Sproul is already committed to certain views that are not supported by Scripture, then you will be led to some of the truth. Here's a quote from Sproul:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/tulip-and-reformed-theology-limited-atonement/

Does the Bible teach that Christ died ONLY for His sheep, or does the Bible teach that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD? Here's one Scripture that should be enough to tell us that the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD (Jn 1:29; 1 Jn 2:1,2): My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Absolutely. The Bible is God's truth. But if we go along with the doctrines of men, we will have only some of the truth.

Correct. And he gave them every word which you find in Scripture.

So once you know th truth, share it with others.


Thanks. I don't want to derail the thread any further, but I will say two things in response:

I think that I will stick with Sproul concerning the issue you raised, and I also think that you selected the right thread title to post your views under.
 
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Job8

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I wouldn't mind exploring this with you if you wish. First, could you let me know which passages in the Bible you are referring to?
Sure. Let's focus on 1 Pet 2:1-10, bearing in mind that this is the Word of God, not the doctrines of men.
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


So let's ask ourselves some questions regarding what is stated above:
Who is being addressed? The people of God.
Who are the people of God? All Christians who have been born again "as newborn babes".
Are they called "living (lively) stones? Yes
Are they called "a spiritual house"? Yes
Are they called "a chosen generation"? Yes
Are they called "a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD"? Yes
Are they called "a holy nation"? Yes
Are they called "a peculiar people"? Yes


Now ask yourself this question: On the authority of God's Word, what right does any denomination have to set up a human priesthood which is distinct from the priesthood of ALL believers?
 
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madera23

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It was beginning to sound as though Sproul was the 13th apostle. Good thing it is just your opinion, since Sproul is thorougly committed to Reformed Theology, which has many questionable concepts.

My question to all is why do we need to follow any man's teachings? We have the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us and guide us into all truth. We do not need doctors, and reverends, and rabbis, and so-called theologians and scholars to confuse us. In fact, the child Jesus showed the scholars how deficient they were.
 
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Dialogist

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Sure. Let's focus on 1 Pet 2:1-10, bearing in mind that this is the Word of God, not the doctrines of men.
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


So let's ask ourselves some questions regarding what is stated above:
Who is being addressed? The people of God.
Who are the people of God? All Christians who have been born again "as newborn babes".
Are they called "living (lively) stones? Yes
Are they called "a spiritual house"? Yes
Are they called "a chosen generation"? Yes
Are they called "a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD"? Yes
Are they called "a holy nation"? Yes
Are they called "a peculiar people"? Yes


Now ask yourself this question: On the authority of God's Word, what right does any denomination have to set up a human priesthood which is distinct from the priesthood of ALL believers?

Thank you for sharing all this. I will give it some thought and respond.

I should, however, have addressed what you mean by a "man-made priesthood". I assume that you mean the fact that the Orthodox Church has "priests"?

Could I ask you (if you don't mind), what is your understanding of the role of priests in the Orthodox Church?

Thanks!
 
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Albion

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Now ask yourself this question: On the authority of God's Word, what right does any denomination have to set up a human priesthood which is distinct from the priesthood of ALL believers?

The two refer to different concepts, both of which are part of the church.
 
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Job8

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The two refer to different concepts, both of which are part of the church.
Albion,
The New Testament never confuses elders (Gk presbuteros = presbyter) with priests. The elders were the shepherds, but all believers are priests, and not just priests, but royal priests: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:6).

Therefore to set up a clergy vs laity system is unscriptural. Furthermore priests belonged to the Levitical priesthood, which was abolished since there are no more sacrifices for sins. The Orthodox priesthood sets up a man-made class of priests (as does the RCC and I believe Anglicans to some degree) who are called "Fathers" and "Reverends". The Lord expressly forbade this and said "Call no man Father" and "All ye are brethren".
 
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Albion

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Albion,
The New Testament never confuses elders (Gk presbuteros = presbyter) with priests.
The Christian (as opposed to Hebrew OT or other religions) priest is an elder. Same office. The fact that we call them priests is, in fact, slang. The actual term is presbyter. In many pieces of Christian literature, the two are used interchangeably. IOW, this is a non-issue.

Therefore to set up a clergy vs laity system is unscriptural.
...or might be if the New Testament were not so explicit about there being clergy, the titles, their qualifications, their duties, and so forth. And we also know from the record that they were part of church life from almost the beginning.
 
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Dialogist

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The New Testament never confuses elders (Gk presbuteros = presbyter) with priests

The Christian (as opposed to Hebrew OT or other religions) priest is an elder. Same office. The fact that we call them priests is, in fact, slang. The actual term is presbyter. In many pieces of Christian literature, the two are used interchangeably. IOW, this is a non-issue.

...or might be if the New Testament were not so explicit about there being clergy, the titles, their qualifications, their duties, and so forth. And we also know from the record that they were part of church life from almost the beginning.

Agreed. Within the Orthodox Church, they are usually called "priests" in English-speaking jurisdictions, but sometimes the title "Presbyter" is actually used in English (presbyteros in Greek). It is the continuation of the office established by the Apostles, as described in the Book of Acts and various Epistles.

I believe that Orthodox and Anglican have similar views of the priesthood (or, better, presbytery) and those views are distinct from the Roman Catholic view.

This is why I asked you earlier what your understanding was of the role of priests within the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Christian role of priest is often conflated with the Roman Catholic role, often leading to a lot of misunderstandings.
 
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Job8

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This is why I asked you earlier what your understanding was of the role of priests within the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Christian role of priest is often conflated with the Roman Catholic role, often leading to a lot of misunderstandings.
Actually there is no misunderstanding. Here is what the Orthodox Church in America has to say:
Thus, although the clergy have their own particular function of leadership, and that by sacramental grace and not merely by human choice or selection, the lay people have their functions as well.
This is exactly what Roman Catholics believe. Sacramentalism is the bedrock of this system. And the Orthodox also confess their sins (or are supposed to) in the presence of a priest. Well the presbyters of the NT did not function in that manner, and James says confess your faults (not sins) one to another. Those are two different Greek words. And every Christian has at least one spiritual gift and one calling. They are not "lay people" but a Royal Priesthood (which the Orthodox conveniently forget, as does the RCC).
 
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