Traditional Christianity and current soundz 4 th3 c00l k1dz

How should traditional churches relate to current musical styles?

  • Include Christianized versions of current musical styles in services.

  • Permit Christianized versions outside of services as part of the larger feast.

  • Permit un-Christianized versions outside of services as part of the larger feast.

  • Exclude current musical styles from both services and the larger feast.


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Cappadocious

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The question: How should traditional churches relate to current musical styles?

By "Christianized versions" of popular music I am thinking of how CCM is to 70's rock, rather than how Handel's Messiah is to oratorio. The distinction is that the former is the a posteriori, intentional Christianization of an existing style for "set apart" use, whereas I claim the latter is not.
 

prodromos

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Traditionally, the Church has used traditional musical forms which were deemed appropriate for worship and excluded those deemed inappropriate, The same was done for iconography. I don't consider any of the modern 'music' to be appropriate.
 
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Shane R

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Catechism of the Catholic Church:
IN BRIEF
1207
It is fitting that liturgical celebration tends to express itself in the culture of the people where the Church finds herself, though without being submissive to it. Moreover, the liturgy itself generates cultures and shapes them.

1208 The diverse liturgical traditions or rites, legitimately recognized, manifest the catholicity of the Church, because they signify and communicate the same mystery of Christ.

1209 The criterion that assures unity amid the diversity of liturgical traditions is fidelity to apostolic Tradition, i.e., the communion in the faith and the sacraments received from the apostles, a communion that is both signified and guaranteed by apostolic succession.
Dr. Barry of LCMS fame wrote seven theses on worship (I paraphrased):
I. The main purpose of worship is to receive God's gifts.
II. Worship is Christ-centered.
III. Worship is a reflection of theology.
IV. Worship is characterized by reverence and dignity.
V. Worship transcends culture.
VI. Worship seeks to edify Christ's holy people.
VII. Uniformity in worship practices is a blessing.
Both of these are interesting and helpful summaries of principles. Now, in real world application, the Orthodox churches have not really been bombarded with this call for contemporary worship music. Why? I think it is because one of the things Orthodox catechesis teaches well is a separation between the sacred and the common. Another emphasis is the continuity between worship in the church visible and the church invisible: when we participate in a liturgy we are joining with those saints who have gone before and are now continuously engaged in praise and prayer before the throne of God. This element of timelessness, if actually infused into one's liturgical culture, mutes calls for modernization in the worship.
 
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Shane R

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I'm on E.C.'s page. However, I also realize that much of the hymnal of any Western liturgical church is set to tunes that were popular music in bygone eras. So, in theory, the genre of the tune is less important than the substance of the lyrics. It just seems that CCM is mostly devoid of lyricists who have anything of substance to say. I've encountered a handful of good songs from the genre, mostly written by folks in local liturgical churches from a Lutheran or Anglican tradition. I just don't see the need for it, and I don't personally like it.
 
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~Anastasia~

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If you're asking whether the Church should incorporate CCM - (and somehow I can't think that you are?) - the answer is of course not. I used to LOVE such music, as in a sense it was all I had. And I found phrases within it that were profound - and I do still love some of those lyric phrases. But for the most part, I can't listen to the radio stations. For a few years before I even knew a thing about liturgy, there were some songs that started to REALLY irritate me - the lyrics could hardly even be really seen as exclusively Christian. And so many frankly glorify the individual, or they praise God only on the basis of "how He makes me feel." Or they are familiar with God in such terms as to lower Him to the status of "our buddy". I can't stomach such lyrics anymore. I stopped enjoying "worshipping God" using such problematic particular songs years ago.

I wouldn't even like to hear most of them in the fellowship hall, nor do I listen to them on my own anymore. But there are SOME that I still find to be theologically and relationally sound and I do enjoy listening to those.

Should the Church produce such music? Well ... I don't see a problem if some artist from within the Church set about to do so. If it was done well to produce music for enjoying outside of Church, then it could be a good thing.
 
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Cappadocious

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If you're asking whether the Church should incorporate CCM - (and somehow I can't think that you are?)
Were that to happen I would vandalize the poorly-calibrated amps myself. But some otherwise high-church denominations do use it, hence its presence on the poll.

Is this related to what you are asking in any way? It is a Paschal hymn, set to local traditional rhythms, using Orthodox tones.

I can't make it play here, but here's a link.

In part. Here's something else you might like:


I think that non-Christianized music is a traditional and appropriate part of the larger feast; particularly the post-liturgical element at Pascha, Dormition, etc.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Were that to happen I would vandalize the poorly-calibrated amps myself. But some otherwise high-church denominations do use it, hence its presence on the poll.

When I was seeking "liturgical worship" locally to find out what it was about (and I knew my husband wouldn't accompany me to an Orthodox Church, so I sought Lutheran, Anglican, and Methodist parishes) ... I went to some that were called "ancient services" which in reality were a mix of hymns of the past couple of centuries and contemporary worship. And the largest local Lutheran parish here offers 3-4 services, some of which range from CCM to folksy-type music.


In part. Here's something else you might like:


I think that non-Christianized music is a traditional and appropriate part of the larger feast; particularly the post-liturgical element at Pascha, Dormition, etc.

That is very interesting to me.

I am hesitant to offer an "Orthodox opinion" because I can't have formulated one yet. What I can say is that I do in fact enjoy "sacred music" set to more regional styles. And I have found the styles of different jurisdictions here in the US to be hauntingly beautiful, or like a heavenly chorus, or otherwise wonderful. I wish I could enjoy them ALL. I listen to music from various monasteries when I can find it, and other performances, and I really enjoy nearly all of them. (I'm afraid I can't quite yet wrap my taste around what I think is a type of Arabic chant but perhaps I can cultivate a taste for it eventually.)

I'm not sure of the proper place for such music though. I thought I would not like the same-ness of the service of the Divine Liturgy, but in fact, I do. A few hymns vary of course, but the order is always the same, and the music itself is within the same couple of styles (with the exception that the chanters perform differently from the choir). I don't think I would like to see every service completely different - and I don't think that will happen anyway. But then where do such things fit in? Or do they?
 
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~Anastasia~

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I should clarify: When I say post-liturgical, I mean during the meal outside, not in the nave.

It seems to me that any of that would be appropriate for coffee hour, or a meal, etc. In our Church, we don't usually have music at those times, but if any is played it is usually ethnic music (Greek in our case) or Christmas music during the season.

If the music is theologically correct, I see no problem with including it during a time of fellowship. The only concern I might have is that some people regard Orthodoxy as being ethnically closed, and if the music strongly encouraged such an impression, it might not be beneficial for inquirers, visitors, etc.

(Personally I like Greek music.)
 
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graceandpeace

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For use during the liturgy? I guess it depends on how things are presented. I visited a blended service today, & the only songs I liked were the more traditional selections.

That said, while I prefer hymns, I wouldn't object to modern praise songs if the content was decent. I prefer singing with the organ, or if that's not possible, then piano or some other instrument(s) to lead the singing. If it's too band-like or loud...it's not for me.

CCM does mimic a lot of regular radio songs. I think there are some decent artists & songs, but overall the music is not for me.
 
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ob77

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The question: How should traditional churches relate to current musical styles?

By "Christianized versions" of popular music I am thinking of how CCM is to 70's rock, rather than how Handel's Messiah is to oratorio. The distinction is that the former is the a posteriori, intentional Christianization of an existing style for "set apart" use, whereas I claim the latter is not.

It matters not how one wishes to acknowledge their love for God through music. I would hope, though, that it would be beautifully melodic to start with and at least be biblically accurate. Few of us know verbatim, the song of Moses, yet there will be a time when we all shall sing it. As long as the music is candy to the ear, I am for it.
 
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seeking.IAM

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The trouble with CCM is that some of it is not very good theology and some of it is not very good music. I prefer not to have it incorporated into liturgy-ever. I am okay with CCM use in less formal settings like coffee hour if it is good theology and good music.

It should be simple musically and lyrically. If I can't sing it in the shower or in the car on the way to work, what's the point?
 
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Korah

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I'm the outlier, sorry, let me explain.
I prefer the traditional liturgy and would attend it and not the contemporary liturgy, all other things being equal.
However, the former is at 8:30, the latter is at 10:30--did you get my drift?
Furthermore, my wife would never attend at 8:30, even were I to do so. She is even more the late sleeper (week-ends that is, she still works business hours) than I am.
The 8:30 service is--literally--dying. Yes, some people under 70 attend. Not many. The numbers of over-70's can increase as time goes by as 60-somethings become 70-somethings, but as for the current over-70-s and over-80's.... do you get the picture without being too specific?
Agreed, none of the 10:30 music is hard-rock inspired, but it is more light-hearted and fun to sing than the traditional hymns.
If even I, an over-70, get more pleasure out of singing contemporary liturgical hymns of charismatic or even evangelical origin, how much more so the under-70's who never attended "traditional" worship to start with?
We have Communion every week, and is it a profanation of Lutheranism? I don't know, maybe so. The same would apply to ALL the Roman Catholic masses (except the exceedingly few Latin?) as well, no? Most Anglican as well? Does that leave anything besides ethnic-origin masses? (Hard to find--I would attend Missouri Synod masses if I could find one where German is still spoken.)
That said, I really do object to SO LITTLE of the actual words of INSTITUTION being said at mass. And BASICALLY THAT ALONE is why I still come down PREFERRING the traditional mass, even though I never attend it except when I sing with the choir (alternate Sundays in "season" that is, and we sing both services on Palm Sunday and Easter).
In any case I would be quite the hypocrite to vote with the rest of you, not to at least PERMIT others to do what I MYSELF do.
 
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