The Torah - What is it?

Hoshiyya

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Not really

"Not really"

Yes, really.
Translating something from one language and script to another language and script necessarily involves losing some of the meaning along the way.

As for your point about something negating spiritual writing on people's hearts, I am not entirely sure what you're saying, but maybe you should see Jeremiah 31:33. TNK and NT are in harmony.
 
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Hoshiyya

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The Torah begins with a Bet for many many different reasons. .... The numerical value of 2 ....

Indeed, without "duality" life could not exist.

I once asked my teacher why some of the Sethites and some of the Cainites had so similar names.
It led me and him to undertake a study on what we, as a working title or for simplicity's sake, ended up just referring to as "Biblical Duality" or "Biblical Polarities".

Connected to the concept of polarities is the concept of the obscuration of truth.
I learned many years ago that the word Olam, world, is derived from or connected to Alam, to hide.
So for the world to even exist, the truth has to be hidden in some way, there needs to be some kind of obscuration of the truth (Prov. 25:2), or it's light would just be the only thing to exist, and there wouldn't be anything for the light to illuminate or interact with. Actually the truth can possibly be stated outright, in full, but there has to be at least some "ambiguity" involved. Hence every Hebrew word can mean at least two things.

There must be 2 genders, 2 poles, a positive and negative charge, etc. etc.
Daniel talks about people being refined like powder. For that to happen, the substance being refined must be between a mortar and a pestle, in other words, must be worked on from two directions.

2 may be the number of physical existence, but 4 seems to be the number of physical space.
2 when doubled is 4. Vertical and horizontal are two things, which when added together make four directions. The many correlations of the number 4 mostly gain significance from being in turn correlated to the four Chayyot and their four faces, and the four directional divisions of the tribes in the Sinai wandering.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Just to give some background:
I was, years ago, investigating whether the scripture had anything to say about whether the Abaddon/Antichrist mentioned in the NT would be (1) a conceptual "opposite to" the Messiah, or (2) a conceptual "counterfeit of" the Messiah.

Anyone who instantly understood the distinction between "opposite to" and "counterfeit of", give yourself a pat on the back. You have an aesthetical mind.

This was separate from but became closely related to the study in polarities I mentioned.

Returning to that topic, I can mention the Prime Polarity of the Bible:

the polarity, duality or interaction (sometimes harmonius, sometimes strained or apparently contradictory interaction) between JUSTICE and MERCY, both of which can have a positive and negative aspect.

Hence Justice and Mercy are two, but actually four, since each of them has a positive and a negative side.

"Justice" can be positively correlated to Torah, law, order, discipline, systematization, and so on.
But also negatively to strictness, harshness, automaticness, "going by the letter and not by the spirit", severity, the cross, and death.

"Mercy" can be positively correlated to salvation, Yeshua, resurrection, patience, tolerance, "good liberty", kindness, and life.
But also negatively to licentiousness, chaos, anarchy, anomianism, "bad liberty", lack of discipline, and so on.

Although I find Yeshua to be "Complete" in the sense of being a master of both Mercy and Justice, I personally find his connection to the principle of Mercy is perhaps slightly more emphatic or important. I also find the Torah to be a law filled with Mercy, so it has its feet in both camps, so to speak, but I think its conceptual connection to Justice is slightly stronger.
 
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visionary

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Moses nor David couldn't have read the OP script. Israelites acquired this new alphabet from the Persia/Babylon time period, somewhere around the 6th-7th century B.C. That 70 years of training there was very educational for the masses in reading and writing among other things.

One exception is the Samaritan Pentateuch, which continues to be written in the ancient form but not paleo-hebrew, even to this day. According to a view based on the biblical Book of Ezra (Ezra 4:11), the Samaritans are the people of Samaria who parted ways with the people of Judah (the Judahites) in the Persian period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch
which is where the branch of masoretic text came from. Masoretic scripture was written somewhere in the 700-800 AD period and used by the Jews for centuries after.
 
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AbbaLove

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I wanted to know, what you thought of the following. This is the divinely inspired first chapter of the Torah, or bible. In it's divinely inspired writing. Copied over the years to be as precise to the original as possible, preserved by the Spirit of G-d to give you the text you now see with your own eyes.

Please look at the first line. The first word. The first letter. Tell me what do you see?

The first line you see, all the way across is a single sentence. The first verse. But before you even see this sentence, what do you see. What is the first thing your eyes fall on when looking at this right to left, as if you were to begin reading it? Remember: what you are seeing is divinely inspired. Nothing therefore, is superfluous. Nothing here is man-made. What do you see?
My observation is what looks more like the insertion of the Hebrew number 2 (Vet, ב) in place of the letter Bet, בּ . At first site it looks like a Hebrew transliteration mistake. Your question "But before you even see this sentence, what do you see" suggests that what we first see has a resemblance more like that of a Vet than a Bet.

Bet with the dagesh (Bet)
When the Bet has a "dot" in its center, known as a dagesh, then it represents /b/. There are various rules in Hebrew grammar that stipulate when and why a dagesh is used.
Bet without the dagesh (Vet)
When this letter appears as ב without the dagesh ("dot") in its center then it represents a voiced labiodental fricative: /v/.

Having some familiarity with Hebrew numbers being used for verse numbers the very "first thing your/my eyes fall on" has more the resemblance of the Hebrew number 2 (Vet) than the Hebrew letter Bet. See the following link where Hebrew numbers are used for interlinear verse identification, for example א (alef) for 1 and ב (Vet) for 2 ... What caught my eye in this "Mechon Mamre" interlinear Bible is that the first letter (Bet) in Genesis 1:1 is slightly lower than the letters that follow Bet. ... http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0101.htm

Mechon Mamre, 12 Hayyim Vital St., Jerusalem, ISRAEL 95470, by phone at 972-2-652-1906, and by email at:
mtr@mechon-mamre.org.

 
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Hoshiyya

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Regardless of diacritics or dots, the Bet has the value of 2.
(Non-standard gematria like Atbash is a separate issue.)

It is true that letters are used to count the verses in place of numbers, since there were no number-glyphs.
So the "first letter" actually is an Aleph, in a sense, as it represents "verse 1". This is true, and worth being mentioned. But the versification is not part of the text of Bereshit. The first mss. would not have contained versification.
I think it still can have significance though.
 
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AbbaLove

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This is the reply just received 3 minutes ago from Israel regarding my enquiry to Mechon-Mamre.
It is not just lower, but bigger. This is not something meaningful, but
is simply one of many letters that are bigger or smaller than usual
according to the scribal traditions (if these traditions are not followed
in writing a Torah scroll, it would still be kosher). There is a page in
Hebrew that lists the odd letters in our Hebrew Bibles:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/toddlet.htm


shalom from Jerusalem, Israel,

Shelomo
The Webmaster
 
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Hoshiyya

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"Daniel read a script of Hebrew unknown to other Jews when the writing on the wall appeared. It was a holy script."

Ashuri/Aramaic was the common writing of the Babylonians at the time, or a lingua france of the whole middle east with influence and derivate alphabeths far into Asia. So I would think the script that appeared to Daniel would have been readable and recognizable to every literate person in the room, if it were the Ashuri/Aramaic script.
 
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visionary

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"Daniel read a script of Hebrew unknown to other Jews when the writing on the wall appeared. It was a holy script."

Ashuri/Aramaic was the common writing of the Babylonians at the time, or a lingua france of the whole middle east with influence and derivate alphabeths far into Asia. So I would think the script that appeared to Daniel would have been readable and recognizable to every literate person in the room, if it were the Ashuri/Aramaic script.
If it was Aramaic you think every one would have been able to read it. If it was Hebrew script of the variant used today, it would have been that which had been in use since Pershia. But if it was in a more ancient form like Paleo-Hebrew, it would have been something that Daniel would have been taught while a child back in Jerusalem in the King's Palace as a Prince at the feet of the temple priests.
 
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AbbaLove

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Every nuance in this type of scroll was put there deliberately by Masoretes, Scribes, Pharisees or Rabbis, depending on the time frame. It is as much their way of interpreting scripture to their own end as the vowel marks which they added later.
Do we know for certain that the text quoted by the author of this thread was actually ever written on a Torah Scroll? It may be a transliteration by the orthodox Saad Community. This was the first religious kibbutz established in the northern Negev on June 30, 1947 by Jews referred to as Sabras. Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is the first and (so far) only sabra Prime Minister to have been born in the modern state since Israel's declaration of independence in 1948.

The term was used by the Zionist movement, to celebrate the "New Jew" that emerged in Israel. Unlike the bourgeous "old Jew" born in the Jewish diaspora, the "New Jew" was a kibbutz member or a farmer. The "Old Jew" often spoke broken Hebrew with a heavy accent, while the sabra spoke the language as a mother tongue. Unlike the "Old Jew" who did not fight for his self-defense, the Sabra fought in the Jewish resistance movements, in the Palmach and after the establishment of Israel in the IDF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(person)

The first symbol (Bet) is apparently another representation of "Bet" that may have special significance to native Sabras and the orthodox community known today as the Kibbutz Sa'ad ... http://www.saad.org.il/klitaEng.html
For more information, please contact us at 052-2211649, 08-6800258 (24 hours) and leave your name and number, so we can call to arrange an interview. Our mailing address is: Kibbutz Sa'ad (attn: Klita Committee) D.N. Hanegev 85140 Israel
klita@saad.org.il
 
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Lulav

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"Josephus, post: 68391466, member: 411"]Granted I have not seen the original, however we can be reasonably certain that what we have that the script you see in the OP, is the original. Several factors bear this out:

1. G-d says that the revealed things "belong to us and our children forever." Meaning that G-d promises to preserve his Word. Forever.

Preserving his word (word of G-d is Yeshua) does not mean a written language.

2. Daniel read a script of Hebrew unknown to other Jews when the writing on the wall appeared. It was a holy script.

Where does it say it was unknown to other Jews? It doesn't. This is what the passage says:

And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom. 8 Then came in all the king's wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof


The Babylonians couldn't read it, not the Jews. It is interesting in Daniel reading and interpretation the difference found there but I shant digress.

3. Torah scrolls have been meticulously copied one from another since Moses's day. Errors are easily discovered between scrolls to eliminate possibility of universal corruption.

There is a big difference in the Ivri and the Ashuri. It is debated in Talmud which was the 'original'.

In terms of what script was used at Mount Sinai, there is a 3 way disagreement in the Talmud Sanhedrin 21b-22a.


    • Mar Zutra (some say it was Mar Ukva) holds that the Torah was originally given in Ivri script, but later the standard was changed to Ashuri in the times of Ezra.
    • Rebbi says that it was given in Ashuri script, but after the Jews sinned (not clear which sin is referred to) it was switched to Ivri script. Later when they repented it switched back to Ashuri script.
    • Rav Elazar HaModai says it was always in Ashuri script, and Ivri script was likely just a common handwriting used by the people but not in Torah scrolls.
However there are scrolls in existence that do have errors and were not destroyed, I have seen them personally. However to say this has been done error free since Moses day is more legendary than factual. Even if every letter was counted, there is still room for human error in counting and just because the numbers add up doesn't mean they are all correct.

4. There are two scripts, and always have been at least so. A holy script, and a mundane script. Even bibles today are written in script Hebrew and not block. Just like fragments are found, not of Torah scrolls, but of scripture written on other things in mundane script. But all the Torah scrolls and scraps from scrolls in existence so far found are written in block Hebrew. I recommend opening this up in another thread. :) end quote Josephus




Yet the Torah scrolls found at Qumran have both, the block letters or ashuri with HaShem's name in ivri.
smallSeptuagintFrag2.jpg
0_0_0_0_250_152_csupload_56835514.png
 
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pat34lee

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"Josephus, post: 68391466, member: 411"]
Preserving his word (word of G-d is Yeshua) does not mean a written language.
2. The Babylonians couldn't read it, not the Jews.

1. True
2. Not necessarily. It never says that Daniel is the only Jew in court. In fact, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo held similar posts. For all we know, it could have been an angelic script, not known on earth anywhere, but the meaning revealed to Daniel.
 
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Lulav

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1. True
2. Not necessarily. It never says that Daniel is the only Jew in court. In fact, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo held similar posts. For all we know, it could have been an angelic script, not known on earth anywhere, but the meaning revealed to Daniel.
3. That is only 'true' or passed down as true about the Masoretes beginning around 500AD. We know scribes weren't that particular with scrolls written BC. Just look at the DSS's.
Pat, read the passage, there were no other Jews present in this scenario, only Daniel was called to come interpret.
 
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pat34lee

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Pat, read the passage, there were no other Jews present in this scenario, only Daniel was called to come interpret.
Pat, read the passage, there were no other Jews present in this scenario, only Daniel was called to come interpret.

v.7, 8. Do we know that there were no Hebrews in all the king's astrologers, soothsayers and wise men, all of whom were called to see if they could read the message?

The only pertinent fact is that only Daniel could read it. Likely no other Hebrew could have read it, as none could interpret dreams like him.
 
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visionary

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MENE, MENE, TEKEL, and UPHARSIN
mē' nĭ mē' nĭ tek əl and pär' sĭn
מְנֵ֥א מְנֵ֖א תְּקֵ֥ל וּפַרְסִֽין

The problem was one of both reading (vocalization) and interpretation and in both of these many variations were possible: a. “Mina, mina, shekel and half-shekels.”

Daniel’s successful interpretation accepted both readings and, by revocalization, added a third, menâ, “he numbered.” He had already stated his belief that it was the Most High God who gives kingship (v. 18) and removes it (v. 19). He alone rules in the kingdom of men as of heaven and sets over an earthly realm whom He will (v. 21). So he interpreted mn’ to include both the numbering of the days of a reign as of life (Ps 90:12) and thus the inevitable end of it. Təqal, “he weighed,” was taken by Daniel as Pi’el təquiltâ, “thou hast been weighed.” The verb commonly is used in Babylonian to denote what is owed, and must be paid, in a debt. Peres (here sing.) is equated with the Akkad. parāsu meaning to “divide” and thus “decide, pass judgment.” So he sees the kingdom as about to be divided up and given to the combined Medes (Madai) and Persians (Parsai). The latter is a word-play on parsin. Daniel’s interpretation followed common Jewish exegetical practice and won immediate acceptance as credible. - See more at: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/mene-mene-tekel-upharsin#sthash.GsncjX70.dpuf
 
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AbbaLove

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The name Ashkenaz was applied in the Middle Ages to Jews living along the Rhine River in northern France and western Germany. Available Ashkenazic material dates from the first half of the 11th century, consisting of epitaphs, the first dated one being of 1034.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/ej/ejud_0002_0001_0_img0159.jpg
Epitaph from Mainz, Germany, in Ashkenazic square script, 1082 C.E.

By the 15th century the Ashkenazic domination of the horizontal strokes had reached its climax (figure 34, of 1432): the horizontals were longer, i.e., the letters were wider. In addition, the letters had a characteristic stance. In all groups and during all periods the downstrokes slanted somewhat to the right, so that the letters leaned slightly to the left.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/ej/ejud_0002_0001_0_img0161.jpg
Figure 34 ~ Extract from the tractate Avot in Ashkenazic square script, 1432.

When an Ashkenazim typecutter transferred the handwritten form of a Hebrew letter onto metal, they regularized them geometrically. They also diminished the preponderance of the horizontal strokes. Curves and undulating elements decreased, the forms became slightly rigid, though less so than in the printers' typeface (figure 35):
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/ej/ejud_0002_0001_0_img0162.jpg
Figure 35 ~ Fifteenth-century printers typeface in Ashkenazic square script.
One way to tell if an Ashkenazic 15th Century Torah/Bible is handwritten is when the ascenders and descenders of certain letters slightly overlap from one line to the next line. This would have been meticulously difficult and impractical with metal type printing. Another clue is the fine line ascenders of certain letters (e.g. shin) which was virtually impossible with early cut typefaces for letterpress printing. This Op Torah Scroll/Bible is an excellent example of 15th Century German Ashkenazim calligraphy from which the first metal Ashkenazi typeface was most likely modelled (e.g. fig. 35). This Torah (Genesis 1) referenced by Josephus exhibits a “regularized geometrical” handwriten appearance of unique beauty that most likely became a model for the first Ashkenazim metal type printing or possibly is a page (Genesis 1) from one of the first letterpress printings of an Ashkenazim Bible.

It would have been nearly impossible to machine print (Op Genesis 1) more than one impression before the fine ascending lines of certain metal letters (e.g. shin) would be broken by the crude printing presses of the 15th-18th Century. The term “kiss impression” to minimize damage to fine line metal serif typefaces didn’t exist until the invention of more precise platen presses after the 1850s. That's the reason why Gutenberg's typeface for his Bible was so bold with no fine lines. One reason san serif typefaces like Helvetica (1957) became so popular was its more prolonged life compared to the finer line serif typefaces like Times New Roman (1931). With the advent of Photo Offset Lithography (mid 1900s) the printing of a beautiful handwritten Ashenazic Torah Scroll is now possible, assmuning permission is granted.

The current thinking seems to be that a machine printed Torah Scroll is still not considered "kosher" by ultra orthodox Jews even if it is an exact copy letter for letter. However, Screen Printing a photographic copied Torah Scroll, using a handheld squeegee, may be considered kosher by American Ultra Orthodox Jews, if not by Israeli Ultra Orthodox Jews.
 
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Lulav

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1. True
2. Not necessarily. It never says that Daniel is the only Jew in court. In fact, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo held similar posts. For all we know, it could have been an angelic script, not known on earth anywhere, but the meaning revealed to Daniel.
3. That is only 'true' or passed down as true about the Masoretes beginning around 500AD. We know scribes weren't that particular with scrolls written BC. Just look at the DSS's.

Wait, Pat what are you doing? I quoted Josephus and put my answers in purple . Your quote of my post is disingenuous, please edit it.
 
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Lulav

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v.7, 8. Do we know that there were no Hebrews in all the king's astrologers, soothsayers and wise men, all of whom were called to see if they could read the message?

The only pertinent fact is that only Daniel could read it. Likely no other Hebrew could have read it, as none could interpret dreams like him.

They all could read the message, it was written in Aramaic, the book of Daniel is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Ezra wrote in Aramaic as well it was the language of Babylon where they both lived.

The ONLY pertinent fact here is that they could read it but couldn't understand it's meaning, it was like a riddle. Daniel was called in to interpret it, not to read it.

This is what makes Josepheus point moot, it was not even in the Hebrew language.

Do you think G-d would write a message to the Babylonians in Hebrew?, No, he wrote it so that they could read it but not understand it, Daniel was chosen to interpret it, to explain the riddle for he was the spokes man for G-d in that land. Read about what he says to the King before he interprets it, he tells him about his father and basically says you were shown the right way, yet your chose the wrong way, thus this sentence is from the L-RD.

numbered, numbered, weighed, divided

you can read that, correct? but without the bible can you interpret it's meaning? It is not a sentence, it is four words joined together. Without the G-dy interpretation one would be apt to say it was a list of mathematical terms.
 
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Lulav

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No. I shortened your post to the parts to which I was responding, then responded to them.
No. I shortened your post to the parts to which I was responding, then responded to them.

You had better do a more careful job then as you made it look like I said all of that and I didn't. What I said is in red below, sandwiched in-between Josephus (blue)words, you can't do that, it is disingenuous. You can take Josephus post and respond to his numbered points and do likewise with mine but don't combine them together.

"Josephus, post: 68391466, member: 411"]

Preserving his word (word of G-d is Yeshua) does not mean a written language.
2. The Babylonians couldn't read it, not the Jews.

3. Torah scrolls have been meticulously copied one from another since Moses's day. Errors are easily discovered between scrolls to eliminate possibility of universal corruption.
 
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