Discussion Covenants

franky67 · Aug 1, 2015

This was the statement in another thread

"I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light."

Galatians 3:16 says "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, He does not say as to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, and to your seed, that is Christ."

Rom 8:17 says we are joint heirs with Christ

Biblicist · Aug 1, 2015

franky67 said:
This was the statement in another thread

"I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light."

Amen and Amen.

How can the Old Covenant which was only a shadow of what was to come be in any way equivelant to the New Covenant where the Father chose to allow his Son to be sacrificed on our behalf and where unlike the Old Covenant we now have the Holy Spirit residing within us as an Eschatological downpayment of the future Kingdom of God.

The Old Covenant when compared to the New Covenant was akin to drinking muddy water to where we now drink of spring waters that have come from the Spirit of God.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 1, 2015

franky67 said:
This was the statement in another thread

"I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light."

Galatians 3:16 says "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, He does not say as to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, and to your seed, that is Christ."

Rom 8:17 says we are joint heirs with Christ

Here are the blessings of the 1st covenant:

Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself
If you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you.
And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.
The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand.
You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.
The Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath

I can't comprehend that God supposedly threw those promises out the door saying His past promises were worthless and then gave us His Son to die for our sins, setting us free from the law of sin and death and then have a great mass of those who claim to be His bride exude all the curses and few if any, of the blessings.

Is 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

franky67 · Aug 1, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Here are the blessings of the 1st covenant:

Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.

Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself

If you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you.

And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand.

You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.

The Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath

I can't comprehend that God supposedly threw those promises out the door saying His past promises were worthless and then gave us His Son to die for our sins, setting us free from the law of sin and death and then have a great mass of those who claim to be His bride exude all the curses and few if any, of the blessings.

AMEN

ToBeLoved · Aug 1, 2015

franky67 said:
Rom 8:17 says we are joint heirs with Christ

That seems to be saying that we are joint heirs with Christ of things given from the Father.

Biblicist · Aug 1, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Here are the blessings of the 1st covenant:

Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.

Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself

If you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you.

And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand.

You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.

The Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath

I can't comprehend that God supposedly threw those promises out the door saying His past promises were worthless and then gave us His Son to die for our sins, setting us free from the law of sin and death and then have a great mass of those who claim to be His bride exude all the curses and few if any, of the blessings.

Is 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Tell me, would you sooner live under the heavy burden of the Old Covenant which even Israel was unable to bear, or with the New Covenant where we are united as One People under God, through the Sacrifice of the Son and by the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, my question is rhetorical as there is really only one possible answer.

franky67 · Aug 1, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Tell me, would you sooner live under the heavy burden of the Old Covenant which even Israel was unable to bear, or with the New Covenant where we are united as One People under God, through the Sacrifice of the Son and by the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, my question is rhetorical as there is really only one possible answer.

In Christ we have the blessings of both, like we're grafted into the rich root of the olive tree.

Biblicist · Aug 1, 2015

franky67 said:
In Christ we have the blessings of both, like we're grafted into the rich root of the olive tree.

Well said. I take it that you view the provisions of the New Covenant and particulary with the blessings that the Holy Spirit has provided us, that this makes the New Covenant far superior to that of the old.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 1, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Tell me, would you sooner live under the heavy burden of the Old Covenant which even Israel was unable to bear, or with the New Covenant where we are united as One People under God, through the Sacrifice of the Son and by the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, my question is rhetorical as there is really only one possible answer.

1 Jn 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (Note that is a NT quote)

This one is too: Heb 8:6 "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises". It's superior in that HE is the mediator, giving better promises because He's a High Priest who is able to keep His promises because He does not sleep or slumber or die or get sick, like the priests before Him did. He IS able to forgive sin, give us a new heart and we can experience the joy of drawing near to God in Christ. His commands are only burdensome to a rebellious flesh which Paul tells us to bring under submission. 1 Cor 9:27 "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified".

Truthfrees · Aug 3, 2015

The perfect laws of the Lord were never a burden.

Jesus called the man-made laws a burden. (Matthew 23:4, Luke 11:46)

What made the OC weak was the flesh. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, the perfect laws of the OT are easily doable.

In fact Jesus says anyone who doesn't obey God's laws and teaches others to disobey is the least in the kingdom. (Matthew 5:19)

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:3-4

"The law of the LORD is perfect." - Psalms 19:7

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 3, 2015

Truthfrees said:
The perfect laws of the Lord were never a burden.

Jesus called the man-made laws a burden. (Matthew 23:4, Luke 11:46)

What made the OC weak was the flesh. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, the perfect laws of the OT are easily doable.

In fact Jesus says anyone who doesn't obey God's laws and teaches others to disobey is the least in the kingdom. (Matthew 5:19)

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:3-4

"The law of the LORD is perfect." - Psalms 19:7

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19

True, it's what man did to God's perfect laws that made them a burden. I had not thought of that before. Well, I had but I just did not say it as well as you did. Thanks :wave:

Truthfrees · Aug 3, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
True, it's what man did to God's perfect laws that made them a burden. I had not thought of that before. Well, I had but I just did not say it as well as you did. Thanks

Another misinterpretation is "the law of sin and death".

People think it means the perfect OT laws of the Lord.

It really means the spiritual law of "sin leads to death". (Romans 5:12, Romans 6:16, Romans 6:23, Romans 7:5, James 1:15) NKJV is clearer than NASV

:clap:

ToBeLoved · Aug 3, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
True, it's what man did to God's perfect laws that made them a burden. I had not thought of that before. Well, I had but I just did not say it as well as you did. Thanks

How is that so? Man did not have to do anything to God's perfect law, because perfection while we are in the flesh is hard because of our inherint sin nature. That is the sinful nature that we are born with, handed down through Adam.

God's laws are not a burden to us because of Christ's blood which brings us forgiveness. That is the ONLY reason that the Law is not a burden to us, otherwise it would send us each straight to hell.

Let's not think too much of ourselves. It is through humbleness that we know that it is Christ's strength in us that makes us overcomer's. Not us in ourselves.

Andry · Aug 3, 2015

There seems to some confusion in this thread. The Abrahamic Covenant is not the same as the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant), and the two aren't interchangeable, especially semantically. Then another topic altogether are the differences between the Old and the New Covenant - and one of them is no longer valid.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 3, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
How is that so?

You misunderstood what was being said...

What God said, was/is perfect, however, those in charge, the scribes and pharisees added things on that were burdensome to the people. That's what Yeshua got on to them about.

ToBeLoved said:
Man did not have to do anything to God's perfect law, because perfection while we are in the flesh is hard because of our inherint sin nature.

Not sure I understand your point here. True, man did not have to do anything to Gods perfect law, but he did anyway. The scribe and pharisees Yeshua dealt with were lording their power over the people by abusing the laws that God had set up. It's also true that in and of ourselves we are unable to keep God's laws. That's why we have the Holy Spirit.

ToBeLoved said:
That is the sinful nature that we are born with, handed down through Adam.

Ok

ToBeLoved said:
God's laws are not a burden to us because of Christ's blood which brings us forgiveness.

True, God's laws are not a burden. Because of the shed blood of Yeshua, we are free to walk in His laws and no longer bound to our sinful nature to do it's works. It was all the extra laws written by some of the leaders that were not part of God's heart that were a burden. That's what me and the other poster were talking about.

ToBeLoved said:
That is the ONLY reason that the Law is not a burden to us, otherwise it would send us each straight to hell.

Not arguing with you. Are you arguing in favor of law now?

ToBeLoved said:
Let's not think too much of ourselves.

Yes, let's not.

ToBeLoved said:
It is through humbleness that we know that it is Christ's strength in us that makes us overcomer's.

Because you've said this right after saying that we should not "think too much of ourselves", do you consider yelling and screaming at people and throwing hissy fits as humbleness?

ToBeLoved said:
Not us in ourselves.

No argument here

That's what I've said all along.

ToBeLoved · Aug 3, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
You misunderstood what was being said...

What God said, was/is perfect, however, those in charge, the scribes and pharisees added things on that were burdensome to the people. That's what Yeshua got on to them about.

Not sure I understand your point here. True, man did not have to do anything to Gods perfect law, but he did anyway. The scribe and pharisees Yeshua dealt with were lording their power over the people by abusing the laws that God had set up. It's also true that in and of ourselves we are unable to keep God's laws. That's why we have the Holy Spirit.

Ok

True, that's what me and the other poster were saying.

Not arguing with you. Are you arguing in favor of law now?

Yes, let's not.

Because you've said this right after saying that we should not "think too much of ourselves", do you consider yelling and screaming at people and throwing hissy fits as humbleness?

No argument here That's what I've said all along.

I'll wait for the next answer. Your answers always confuses more then clarifies. Like you can't answer without an insult or something. Really odd way to talk about Christ, with a little insult.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 3, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
I'll wait for the next answer.

What next answer?

ToBeLoved said:
Your answers always confuses more then clarifies.

I'm sorry. I try to word things as best I know how.

ToBeLoved said:
Like you can't answer without an insult or something.

I feel pretty much the same regarding your answers to me. Don't you think that you telling me that I must not think to much of myself is an insult on your part?

ToBeLoved said:
Too bad.

I agree.

franky67 · Aug 3, 2015

Andry said:
There seems to some confusion in this thread. The Abrahamic Covenant is not the same as the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant), and the two aren't interchangeable, especially semantically. Then another topic altogether are the differences between the Old and the New Covenant - and one of them is no longer valid.

Referring to Romans ch 11, how would you define, "the rich root of the olive tree"

ToBeLoved · Aug 3, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
What next answer?

I'm sorry. I try to word things as best I know how.

I feel pretty much the same regarding your answers to me. Don't you think that you telling me that I must not think to much of myself is an insult on your part?

I agree.

my post on this thread was not seeking you out. You sought me out with your reply and addressed me with your negative words. Why would you do that? That is disturbing.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 3, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
my post on this thread was not seeking you out. You sought me out with your reply and addressed me with your negative words. Why would you do that? That is disturbing.

You quoted my post and asked a question (look back for yourself). I assumed you were expecting an answer. I answered to the best of my ability. You did not like the answer. I admit the comment about yelling and screaming and throwing a hissy fit could have been left out. Please forgive me. As to the rest of my answer though, it's all I have so if you want another answer maybe you'll get it if you ask someone else.

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