Student Was So Offended by How Her School Pushed ‘Christian Beliefs’ That She’s Suing Them

pat34lee said:

Who writes the laws, schools or Congress? Tell me exactly how the schools are able to violate something that only Congress can do.

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Did you ignore all the posts about the equal protection clause?

pat34lee said:

No matter. The government has no place in the schools anyway. They should be turned over to the states who can teach religion in them or not as they see fit.

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I really wish people would read stuff they write before posting it.

pat34lee said:

Every state should be sovereign in its own territory.

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I don't think you understand what the word sovereign means.

USincognito said:

Humans (and our fellow apes) also are members of parvorder Catarrhini and thus are monkeys,

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I think it would be more accurate to say that monkeys are catarrhini.

Armoured said:

Sure one can opt out. Don't take biology.

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Now you sound like a far right, conservative Christian who will not ever compromise on anything. The cut off my nose to spite my own face type of person. The type of person who only cares about themselves and their own ideology.
Biology is a required science in every high school that I know of and necessary for every college prep. curriculum for sure. But you are willing to deprive a student in order for you to have your own way. What's that about?

There are plenty of Christians that do believe that evolution is a possibility but only by intelligent design. I'd be willingly for my child to include evolution in high school but not if it is taught in a manner that rules out intelligent design. Could you agree to that?

Hank77 said:

Actually the worth of the truth is not determined by the lies that are told to defend it. It may however determine the integrity of the person telling the lies.
There have been people who have lied and constructed major hoaxes in order to defend evolution. It would be morally and intellectually wrong for me to judge whether evolution has any truth to it or not because dishonest people lied to defend it.

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Agreed -- fortunately, evolution has a lot more going for it than the hoaxes.

Hank77 said:

Now you sound like a far right, conservative Christian who will not ever compromise on anything. The cut off my nose to spite my own face type of person. The type of person who only cares about themselves and their own ideology.
Biology is a required science in every high school that I know of and necessary for every college prep. curriculum for sure. But you are willing to deprive a student in order for you to have your own way. What's that about?
.

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in agreement but aww.. having raised a child.. I can tell you firsthand, like most Christian parents.. and probably even yourself.. the kids come home and laugh about the evolution science (theory). They are monkeys ha ha ha and I'm the queen of Sheba I know (theory). But on the other hand it tells me a lot about why so many people act like animals today and think it's just alright

LoveJesusAndLive said:

in agreement but aww.. having raised a child.. I can tell you firsthand, like most Christian parents.. and probably even yourself.. the kids come home and laugh about the evolution science (theory). They are monkeys ha ha ha and I'm the queen of Sheba I know (theory). But on the other hand it tells me a lot about why so many people act like animals today and think it's just alright

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They're being taught that they're monkeys? Sue your school district -- clearly you're not getting your money's worth.

Unless, of course, you prefer the strawman to the genuine article -- a lot easier to defend one's faith against a caricature than genuine opposition.

TLK Valentine said:

They're being taught that they're monkeys? Sue your school district -- clearly you're not getting your money's worth.

Unless, of course, you prefer the strawman to the genuine article -- a lot easier to defend one's faith against a caricature than genuine opposition.

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I don't know, perhaps you need to think a bit more like a 13 year old.. personally, evolution is a useless argument and quest in my op.. evolution does not equate with environmental adaptation, that's a stretch and that's 'science' today. There's so much evidence of a catastrophic flood, there's so much evidence of life suddenly appearing in the fossil record.. maybe you just prefer to ignore it. Seek Jesus, you'll find Him before any real proof of evolution, I guarantee it.

(but no one will believe you aw shucks)

Sistrin said:

That is not what the First Amendment says. The First Amendment was crafted to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government.

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Well that's not how the Supreme court sees it. Apparently, they think that using public funds (you know, since public schools are paid for by taxes) to promote christianity (or any religion) violates the establishment clause.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1947/1947_90

I suppose if it were just a class on various world religions...and it taught that the myths of christianity were no more true than the myths of Hinduism...there wouldn't be any problem with that. Personally, I happen to agree with our founding fathers and constitution on this one.

LoveJesusAndLive said:

I don't know, perhaps you need to think a bit more like a 13 year old.. personally, evolution is a useless argument and quest in my op.. evolution does not equate with environmental adaptation, that's a stretch and that's 'science' today. There's so much evidence of a catastrophic flood, there's so much evidence of life suddenly appearing in the fossil record.. maybe you just prefer to ignore it. Seek Jesus, you'll find Him before any real proof of evolution, I guarantee it.

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May I say that you really need to study evolution, you seem to not understand it, nor the proof, and have a lot of misconceptions. It is also unfortunate that you didn't answer the question "Is Gravity a fact?" The point of that question is it is the "Theory of Gravity", just the same as the "Theory of Evolution". Last, realize that a huge number of Christians, including most Christian scientists, believe both in a Creation and Evolution -- the two are not mutually exclusive.

Having said this, I think we should get this thread back on topic -- there is another forum for arguing evolution vs. creationism.

Maren said:

May I say that you really need to study evolution, you seem to not understand it, nor the proof, and have a lot of misconceptions. It is also unfortunate that you didn't answer the question "Is Gravity a fact?" The point of that question is it is the "Theory of Gravity", just the same as the "Theory of Evolution". Last, realize that a huge number of Christians, including most Christian scientists, believe both in a Creation and Evolution -- the two are not mutually exclusive.

Having said this, I think we should get this thread back on topic -- there is another forum for arguing evolution vs. creationism.

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well actually far as I know scientists argue the existence of gravity, even Einstein..
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?_r=0

did you have an issue with my knowledge of evolution also? Pretty sure those statements are right on target. Do some research.

Hank77 said:

Now you sound like a far right, conservative Christian who will not ever compromise on anything. The cut off my nose to spite my own face type of person. The type of person who only cares about themselves and their own ideology.
Biology is a required science in every high school that I know of and necessary for every college prep. curriculum for sure. But you are willing to deprive a student in order for you to have your own way. What's that about?

There are plenty of Christians that do believe that evolution is a possibility but only by intelligent design. I'd be willingly for my child to include evolution in high school but not if it is taught in a manner that rules out intelligent design. Could you agree to that?

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Biology is an elective course in Australia. Now, sure, it's a bit of a requirement for some courses at university, like, say, medicine, or biomedical science, but if you have an ethical objection to learning a fundamental component of high school biology I don't imagine you're going to enjoy courses with the same fundamental component at university level. It's not a "my way or the highway" thing, it's a practical problem. Saying "you should be allowed to take biology or bio derived subjects, without learning about evolution," is kind of like saying "you should be able to take advanced mathematics courses without learning subtraction". I'm not trying to keep anyone out, I just don't see how you plan to get around it practically.

Hank77 said:

There are plenty of Christians that do believe that evolution is a possibility but only by intelligent design. I'd be willingly for my child to include evolution in high school but not if it is taught in a manner that rules out intelligent design. Could you agree to that?

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I can't think of anything in evolutionary theory that rules out ID, so I'm not sure what you're asking for.

LoveJesusAndLive said:

well actually far as I know scientists argue the existence of gravity, even Einstein..
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?_r=0

did you have an issue with my knowledge of evolution also? Pretty sure those statements are right on target. Do some research.

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That's disingenuous. Now, sure, scientists argue over exactly what gravity is, how it works and what it's precise parameters are. That's not the same as suggesting scientists deny gravity as a universal principle. Similarly, while scientist may argue over the exact specifics of how evolution works, doesn't make it any less a well supported property of the real world.

LoveJesusAndLive said:

There's so much evidence of a catastrophic flood, there's so much evidence of life suddenly appearing in the fossil record..

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You have either grossly misunderstood some science, or been lied to deliberately. Neither of your claims is accurate.

USincognito said:

The Catarrhini/Platarrhini common ancestor would very much have resembled modern monkeys. Of course now we get into the problem of common parlance and taxonomy/cladistics. Humans are members of family Hominidae meaning we are apes. But apes is a common term, not a scientific one so "We are apes" or "We aren't apes" are way to vague to be considered a scientifically valid pronouncement. Humans (and our fellow apes) also are members of parvorder Catarrhini and thus are monkeys, but only in the same way that we're fish because we are members of the clade Sarcopterygii.

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I think the problem is your using the term for a group rather then what it be classified as, if we saw our ancestor in the past we would call it X monkey, not X catarrhini as it be like calling the ancestor of wolves X cannine, rather then x wolf while it still fits all the charecteristics of a wolf. the ancestor between humans and fish would be classified as a ancient fish, not a ancient chordate, or the ancestor of humans and mice, a rodent, not a mammal/placental or what ever you want to call it. It's a bit pedantic I find that we want to call ancestors by their broad terms and not their classification.

loveofourlord said:

I think the problem is your using the term for a group rather then what it be classified as, if we saw our ancestor in the past we would call it X monkey, not X catarrhini as it be like calling the ancestor of wolves X cannine, rather then x wolf while it still fits all the charecteristics of a wolf. the ancestor between humans and fish would be classified as a ancient fish, not a ancient chordate, or the ancestor of humans and mice, a rodent, not a mammal/placental or what ever you want to call it. It's a bit pedantic I find that we want to call ancestors by their broad terms and not their classification.

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Nested hierarchy, baby!

Aldebaran said:

If teachers are in school telling children that evolution is a fact, then they are essentially also telling them that God did not create the world as is taught in the bible, and saying that it is false, as both cannot be facts. Do you really think it's the place of school teachers to be telling them that the child's religious beliefs are false?

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Buddy, let me be as blunt as I possibly can. If your religious beliefs conflict with reality, particularly where this conflict with reality is important enough to modern science to be taught in school, then that is your problem. If my religious beliefs stated that the world was a flat disc with a crystal firmament, that diseases were caused by demonic possession, that the ratio between a circle's diameter and its circumference is exactly 3, and that the earth was the center of the universe, it is incumbent upon society to beat the stupid out of me with a whiffle-ball bat until I can be a productive member of society. Because at that point, my religious beliefs, while cherished and meaningful to me, are wrong. It doesn't matter how hard I believe, reality will not budge. And you know what? The literalist interpretation of the Genesis account is wrong.

And you know what? Much of modern Christianty has accepted this. The papacy has long since accepted evolution. The eastern orthodox church has no problem with it either. Countless sects see the genesis account as allegory, or hold that when the bible speaks of "days" it means "ages" (although it's still wrong in that case, but whatever). They have found a way to mold their religious beliefs around the unyielding bastion of reality in a way that is still comforting to them. But the rest of you? I'm sorry, but the fact that you believe that evolution is wrong based on your religious beliefs simply means that your religious beliefs are wrong.

Hank77 said:

All things have to have started from something, even if it was a piece of dust. But where did that piece of dust come from? Where did the smallest molecule come from? How was it created?
My problem is not with evolution per se but with how it is taught. It is trying to answer the question of how all life came into existence and developed into all the different diverse life forms, so be it.

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That is neither how evolution (or any other branch of science creationists love to refer to en masse as "evolutionism") is taught in practice or in theory. The theory of evolution deals with the development and diversification of existing life. It does not deal with how the first lifeforms came about. It does not deal with the formation of the solar system, the formation of heavier elements, or the beginning of the universe. You don't have a clue what the theory you're bashing even is.

Aldebaran said:

If teachers are in school telling children that evolution is a fact, then they are essentially also telling them that God did not create the world as is taught in the bible, and saying that it is false, as both cannot be facts. Do you really think it's the place of school teachers to be telling them that the child's religious beliefs are false?

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It really sucks that human beings have come up with beliefs which contradict reality, and that some have also forgotten that these beliefs were only constructed because humans didn't have the knowledge needed to figure out the truth, but that's not any school's fault. No one's education should be intentionally subpar just to accommodate that.