Where is the line with "playing God"?

joshua 1 9 · Jul 31, 2015

Loudmouth said:
Do you think heaven will be stuffed full with souls that never even made it one month past conception?

Jesus said Heaven is all about Children. A lot of the stories we hear about heaven is a place made for children to learn and grow.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.17"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." Luke18:16

joshua 1 9 · Jul 31, 2015

bhsmte said:
How in the world did you conclude this from what he said?

I will edit it to insert the question I am responding to.

Loudmouth · Jul 31, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
Jesus said Heaven is all about Children. A lot of the stories we hear about heaven is a place made for children to learn and grow.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.17"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." Luke18:16

When Jesus said to let the children come to him, did 3 week old embryos scurry over?

joshua 1 9 · Jul 31, 2015

Loudmouth said:
When Jesus said to let the children come to him, did 3 week old embryos scurry over?

This really is a reference to causing little children to stumble. Still the sentiment is the same, don't mess with the children. You seem to be trying to present an argument that it is perfectly acceptable to massacre unborn babies as a response to my anti abortion beliefs.

Loudmouth · Jul 31, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
This really is a reference to causing little children to stumble. Still the sentiment is the same, don't mess with the children. You seem to be trying to present an argument that it is perfectly acceptable to massacre unborn babies as a response to my anti abortion beliefs.

Actually, it was God that said it was fine to massacre children.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

What I was saying was that abortions make up a tiny percentage of the babies who die before being born. Anywhere from 25-50% of pregnancies naturally abort in the first month. Do you think heaven is going to be stuffed full of souls who never made it past the first month of embryonic development?

juvenissun · Jul 31, 2015

The Cadet said:
But without a control group, we have nothing to work with. That's why these double-blind studies were done. To determine how the control group who wasn't prayed for responded compared to the treatment group who was prayed for. And the results: a big fat nothing. There was simply no difference.

So, have a control group.

Loudmouth · Jul 31, 2015

juvenissun said:
So, have a control group.

They did. The control group did as well as the group that was prayed for.

The Cadet · Jul 31, 2015

juvenissun said:
So, have a control group.

Well... Yeah. The studies did. I'm not sure what your problem is with the published studies on prayer, honestly.

juvenissun · Aug 1, 2015

The Cadet said:
Well... Yeah. The studies did. I'm not sure what your problem is with the published studies on prayer, honestly.

A host of problems. It is simply a very very badly designed experiment. Waste time and money.
Only politicians will do such thing. And only ignorants will use the result as an argument for anything.

Gottservant · Aug 1, 2015

A difference that stresses the importance of God, in order to be made - does not make a point for God.

The Cadet · Aug 1, 2015

juvenissun said:
A host of problems. It is simply a very very badly designed experiment.

Okay, what's wrong with the design?

juvenissun · Aug 1, 2015

The Cadet said:
Okay, what's wrong with the design?

1. The purpose of praying is very diffused and unclear.
2. ...
3. ...
.
.

The Cadet · Aug 1, 2015

juvenissun said:
1. The purpose of praying is very diffused and unclear.
2. ...
3. ...
.
.

...So is there a reason I can't get a straight, clear, supported answer from you, or what?

bhsmte · Aug 1, 2015

The Cadet said:
...So is there a reason I can't get a straight, clear, supported answer from you, or what?

Probably because he doesn't have one.

juvenissun · Aug 1, 2015

The Cadet said:
...So is there a reason I can't get a straight, clear, supported answer from you, or what?

What I gave you is a pretty straight forward answer. The count of serious flaws of this stupid experiment is almost endless. I just give you one at a time and see how many would you like to see. Is the first mistake serious enough to screw up the whole experiment?

Paul of Eugene OR · Aug 1, 2015

juvenissun said:
What I gave you is a pretty straight forward answer. The count of serious flaws of this stupid experiment is almost endless. I just give you one at a time and see how many would you like to see. Is the first mistake serious enough to screw up the whole experiment?

well, for one thing, it is very difficult to prove nobody ever prayed for any particular person who is sick. We have to rule out prayer by the nurses and doctors and orderlies and cleaning staff, to begin with.

Then we have to figure out what constitutes prayer. Does it count if a sincerely good person simply wishes that someone else would be better?

DogmaHunter · Aug 2, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
"'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'"

People who go to Heaven without their works being tested will not receive any reward. 1cor14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You're not replying to what I'm actually asking.

Your whole arguement seems to be based on the furtility of life.

No, it is based on the idea theists put forward, that an "eternal afterlife" is more important then an extremely short earthly life.

Eternity is the bigger picture, yes?
Eternity in paradise is preferable to eternity in hell, yes?

Do you feel life has no value?

I'm bending over backwards here to assume your position, that there is an eternity after this very short earlthy lifespan.

Myself, I don't believe this. As far as I am concerned, this earthly life is all we get.
Obviously, I value life. I'ld even dare to say that I value it more then people who believe that an eternal life will come after this short earthly life.

Do you think that it does not make any difference if we live a full life or not?

If the idea is that babies who die go straight to paradise, then no. It doesn't make a difference. Well, yes, actually... there is a difference in the sense that a pakistani baby that dies is guaranteed a spot in (christian) heaven. While if that baby grows up, there's like 99.99% chance (s)he'll grow up to be a muslim and be guaranteed a spot in (christian) hell, for not accepting christ as his/her "saviour".

Does all our experience and all that we learn just perish and come to nothing? Sounds like the epitome of futility to me. This attitude that you seem to have.

It's not an attitude that I HAVE. It's rather the attitude that logically follows from an idea that says "babies that die go straight to paradise".

Which is exactly what I'm trying to communicate. But everybody here seems to be dancing around this obvious consequence.

DogmaHunter · Aug 2, 2015

The Cadet said:
Well... Yeah. The studies did. I'm not sure what your problem is with the published studies on prayer, honestly.

Isn't it obvious?

The problem with these studies is that Juve doesn't like the outcome.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 2, 2015

DogmaHunter said:
You're not replying to what I'm actually asking.

No, it is based on the idea theists put forward, that an "eternal afterlife" is more important then an extremely short earthly life.

Eternity is the bigger picture, yes?
Eternity in paradise is preferable to eternity in hell, yes?

I'm bending over backwards here to assume your position, that there is an eternity after this very short earlthy lifespan.

Myself, I don't believe this. As far as I am concerned, this earthly life is all we get.
Obviously, I value life. I'ld even dare to say that I value it more then people who believe that an eternal life will come after this short earthly life.

If the idea is that babies who die go straight to paradise, then no. It doesn't make a difference. Well, yes, actually... there is a difference in the sense that a pakistani baby that dies is guaranteed a spot in (christian) heaven. While if that baby grows up, there's like 99.99% chance (s)he'll grow up to be a muslim and be guaranteed a spot in (christian) hell, for not accepting christ as his/her "saviour".

It's not an attitude that I HAVE. It's rather the attitude that logically follows from an idea that says "babies that die go straight to paradise".

Which is exactly what I'm trying to communicate. But everybody here seems to be dancing around this obvious consequence.

If you have found a life apart from God that your happy with than that is fine. For me a life without God is not a life worth living.

I agree that we need to make this life worth while. I am not sure if Paul in the Bible would agree. He wanted to sacrifice this life for the hope of eternal security and reward in the next life. If there is no heaven then the benefits I gain from my sacrifices in this life is worth the cost I pay.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 2, 2015

bhsmte said:
Well, in 9 million cases of children younger than five, it fails.

What is better for a child to be born into a Christian family or a non Christian?

Where is the line with "playing God"?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

... and God saw that it was good.

Contributor

SO COOL

... and God saw that it was good.

God loves your words, may men love them also

SO COOL

... and God saw that it was good.

SO COOL

Newbie

... and God saw that it was good.

Finally Old Enough

Code Monkey

Code Monkey

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads