Discussion Salvation Requirement in the Old Testament

Biblicist

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The Holy Spirit did play a role in the OT and His role is to lead us in obedience to God:
This can only occur within the New Covenant where the individual Believer receives the Eschatological downpayment of the Holy Spirit, this is something that was completely unknown to those who were under the Old Covenant. You need to remember that our Salvation and regeneration is both Christological where Christ took our punishment on the Cross and Pneumatological where the Holy Spirit was given for our strengthening and growth; for Israel who, were under the Old Covenant, they were on their own and if they couldn't fully submit to the Law in their own strength then they were doomed, which is actually the outcome that we see in Ezekiel 36.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
I hate to have to point out the obvious flaw in your reasoning regarding Ezek 36, but this is talking about the End Days where the rebellious Israel will be returned to its own land (1948) and where sometime in the future they will leave their time of rebellion and seperation from God once they recognise that Jesus is their Messiah who they once crucified.

I sampled a number of paragraphs on differenct pages but as it seems to be more of a cessationist document where the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit is rarely understood then I will leave it alone.

It is only by faith that we can receive God's laws as a divine privilege and delight as they were intended and as the Psalmists understood (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 119) and as Paul understood (Romans 7:22). I don't know how anyone could read Psalms 119 and get the impression that God had saddled them with a horrendous burden. The Jews frequently give thanks to God for giving them the Torah as instructions for life. There's such a huge disconnect between how most Jews view the law and how most Christians view it, and after spending time studying the Jewish cultural context of the Bible, I came to the conclusion that the Jews had it right.
All I can say is that your position stands not only square against the Written Word of God but with 2000 years of church understanding on this very simple issue.
 
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franky67

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This can only occur within the New Covenant where the individual Believer receives the Eschatological downpayment of the Holy Spirit, this is something that was completely unknown to those who were under the Old Covenant. You need to remember that our Salvation and regeneration is both Christological where Christ took our punishment on the Cross and Pneumatological where the Holy Spirit was given for our strengthening and growth; for Israel who, were under the Old Covenant, they were on their own and if they couldn't fully submit to the Law in their own strength then they were doomed, which is actually the outcome that we see in Ezekiel 36.


I hate to have to point out the obvious flaw in your reasoning regarding Ezek 36, but this is talking about the End Days where the rebellious Israel will be returned to its own land (1948) and where sometime in the future they will leave their time of rebellion and seperation from God once they recognise that Jesus is their Messiah who they once crucified.

I sampled a number of paragraphs on differenct pages but as it seems to be more of a cessationist document where the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit is rarely understood then I will leave it alone.


All I can say is that your position stands not only square against the Written Word of God but with 2000 years of church understanding on this very simple issue.
This can only occur within the New Covenant where the individual Believer receives the Eschatological downpayment of the Holy Spirit, this is something that was completely unknown to those who were under the Old Covenant. You need to remember that our Salvation and regeneration is both Christological where Christ took our punishment on the Cross and Pneumatological where the Holy Spirit was given for our strengthening and growth; for Israel who, were under the Old Covenant, they were on their own and if they couldn't fully submit to the Law in their own strength then they were doomed, which is actually the outcome that we see in Ezekiel 36.


I hate to have to point out the obvious flaw in your reasoning regarding Ezek 36, but this is talking about the End Days where the rebellious Israel will be returned to its own land (1948) and where sometime in the future they will leave their time of rebellion and seperation from God once they recognise that Jesus is their Messiah who they once crucified.

I sampled a number of paragraphs on differenct pages but as it seems to be more of a cessationist document where the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit is rarely understood then I will leave it alone.


All I can say is that your position stands not only square against the Written Word of God but with 2000 years of church understanding on this very simple issue.

Could you please tell the thread where you were taught that God, the Holy Spirit had no influence in the Old Testament ?
 
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Biblicist

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Could you please tell the thread where you were taught that God, the Holy Spirit had no influence in the Old Testament ?
It seems that you have completely misunderstood the theological fundamentals that I have posted.

As for "...God, the Holy Spirit had no influence in the OT", could it be that you are maybe trying to overplay your hand as it is really a bit over the top to the degree that your question has no real place within serious discussion. You would be better off addressing each of my previous points, otherwise the question that you posted trivialises our discussion.

I've noticed your wof tag where I am more than a bit perplexed as to how you can fail to appreciate the important work that the Son of God undertook on the Cross and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. Now we would all know that the Father spoke directly to the Patriarchs and other important individuals within Israel and that the Holy Spirit also at times spoke through Prophets so these things (and others) are not in question.

Israel completely demonstrated their inability (as representative of all mankind) to maintain the obligations that God imposed on them whereby he would keep them in a Covenental relationship with him; as Paul often mentioned, the Law was simply too burdonsome and could you imagine the Father deciding to send his Son to die on the cross if the principles of the Old Covenant were in any way satisfactory where man would be able to relate to the Father - absolutely not.

Your position that the ministry of the Holy Spirit was the same in the OldTestament as it is in the New Testament is nothing less than an assault on the name of the Son and the Holy Spirit where both their Person and ministry has been diminished. Thankfully your perspective has no real support within serious theological circles.
 
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franky67

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No, I did not say that, and it is not my position that the ministries of the Holy Spirit were the same in the old and new testaments.

You said this....."for Israel who, were under the Old Covenant, they were on their own and if they couldn't fully submit to the Law in their own strength then they were doomed, which is actually the outcome that we see in Ezekiel 36.

Ezekiel 36:24 says "And I will take you from all the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land" God goes on to say that He would put His Spirit within them, and cause them to walk in His statutes. Which is the result of the new covenant mediated by Jesus.

Does this sound like a people "on their own" ?

And I still am wondering where it is taught that God's people were ever "on their own".

So I ask again, who taught the theology you believe ? I would like to know more about this, as it is new to me.
 
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Biblicist

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No, I did not say that, and it is not my position that the ministries of the Holy Spirit were the same in the old and new testaments.

You said this....."for Israel who, were under the Old Covenant, they were on their own and if they couldn't fully submit to the Law in their own strength then they were doomed, which is actually the outcome that we see in Ezekiel 36.

Ezekiel 36:24 says "And I will take you from all the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land" God goes on to say that He would put His Spirit within them, and cause them to walk in His statutes. Which is the result of the new covenant mediated by Jesus.

As I have already explained the setting for Ezekiel 36 then there is probalby little reason to go over the same ground again.

Does this sound like a people "on their own" ?
That's correct, Israel or each individual Israelite was certainly on their own where their obedience to the Laws that God imposed upon Israel relied entirely on their own human effort and strength. This is in complete contrast to the New Covenant where each Believer has recieved the Eschatological Holy Spirit which is a fortaste of the future Kindom of God. What Israel experienced under the Old Covenant was only a shadow of the experiential relationship where under the New Covenant we have become the children of God not only through the sacrifice of the Son but through the sanctifying and empowering presence of the Holy Spirit.

And I still am wondering where it is taught that God's people were ever "on their own".
So I ask again, who taught the theology you believe ? I would like to know more about this, as it is new to me.
You surprised me with "it's new to me", all you have to do is to go and pick up virtually any book on theology and take notice of 2000 years of Christian history. Over the years, I will grant that I've come the occasional person who believes similar things to you, even within Pentecostal circles, but I've always tried to keep my distance from them as their views I have always recognised and understood to be verging on or even crossing into heresy.

Now I recognise that your views regarding the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit that they seem to be common within North American fundamentalism, but how this type of perspective can be found within Full Gospel circles, even to this day, it has me at a complete loss.

Maybe I should return to the PDF article that you linked to where we can go through it point by point, this could undoubtedly help others as well. Edit: I carelessly quoted the wrong person.



Edit: After posting, I went and checked out the college where the article was found and I was not surprised to see that they are aligned with the independent Baptists. I've yet to see if the document has been endorsed by them but as they are fundy's then it would not surprise me as the theology of the independent Baptists are more bini-tarian (Father & Son alone) than Trinitarian, where maybe it even crosses into Christomonism (Jesus only).

In their statement of 'faith' they show their true colours with:
"We believe that gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to build up the body of Christ. We believe that the sign gifts of the Spirit were given only for the apostolic era, providing revelation and authenticating the ministry of the apostles".
 
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Frogster

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The faith of Abraham has always been central to the Bible and the law was always intended to be kept by faith in a way that built a relationship between God and His people, not legalistically according to the letter. The law was not intended by God to be a legalistic burden, but rather the law is spiritual and it is only by faith that it can be received as a divine privilege and a delight. Legalism according to the letter is in fact where Israel went wrong because they didn't understand that the true righteousness of the law is found in a relationship with God.
But the Abrahamic promise of the Spirit came after the age of law, after redemption from the law, here are 2 chronologies of this from Galatians.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.



Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
 
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Frogster

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YES, so very true, and God did not change when He sent His Son to take away all our sins.
So our salvation is still by faith, and not works.


God told Abraham that he was made righteous by his faith, which meant that he is now in heaven.

But then God also told Abraham and his descendants that if they were obedient, He would bless them with the blessings of His covenant. Listed in various places, but namely in Deuteronomy 28.

The new testament teaches us that God considers Jesus as the seed of Abraham, and that those in Christ are blessed with Abraham, as taught in Galatians 3:14

We Word of Faith believers are told we are wrong with our "health and welfare" gospel, and that the blessing spoken of in Gal. 3 are "spiritual" only

Why would God bless His people while they lived on earth in the old testament, and withhold those same blessing from those of us in Christ ?

Red above, because Gal 3 talks about the Spirit and Abraham, not money.


Besides, God under the Old cov did withhold, it was a merit system. Exile ring a bell?


Heb 2:2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,

Heb 10:8 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses
 
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Frogster

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The Holy Spirit did play a role in the OT and His role is to lead us in obedience to God:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

http://www.bbc.edu/council/documents/2011/5A_Stallard_ The Holy Spirit in the OT Final.pdf

It is only by faith that we can receive God's laws as a divine privilege and delight as they were intended and as the Psalmists understood (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 119) and as Paul understood (Romans 7:22). I don't know how anyone could read Psalms 119 and get the impression that God had saddled them with a horrendous burden. The Jews frequently give thanks to God for giving them the Torah as instructions for life. There's such a huge disconnect between how most Jews view the law and how most Christians view it, and after spending time studying the Jewish cultural context of the Bible, I came to the conclusion that the Jews had it right.
Peter and James James said not to burden the church with the law in Acts 15.

Did you notice that Peter was in the "we"?

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
 
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franky67

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Red above, because Gal 3 talks about the Spirit and Abraham, not money.


Besides, God under the Old cov did withhold, it was a merit system. Exile ring a bell?


Heb 2:2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,

Heb 10:8 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses

You said "Red above, because Gal 3 talks about the Spirit and Abraham, not money."

I ask you now to give scripture elsewhere that contradicts Galatians 3:16, and says Galatians is only speaking of spiritual blessings . And how would you define "spiritual blessing" ?
vs 16
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, he does not say, 'and to seeds as referring to many, but rather to one 'and to your seed' , that is Christ. "


And I repeat, why would God grant the blessings to Abraham, and all his offspring, and leave Christians out ?

Romans 11 says gentile Christians are grafted into the "rich root of the olive tree" what would you say the rich root included ?
 
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1. Repent
2. Believe
3. Confess
4. Obey
5. Endure

Same in the OT as the NT.
Old Covenant
1. Repent (repent, or should that be obey)
2. Believe (in the Law)
3. Confess (the Covenant given by God to Israel)
4. Obey (the many Laws along with its Temple obligations and sacrifices)
5. Endure (the painstaking and burdonsome Law through human strength & effort)​

New Covenant
1. Repent (of my sin)
2. Believe (that the Son of God died on my behalf)
3. Confess (my inherent sin)
4. Obey (the leading of the Spirit and with the Word of God)
5. Endure (through the Power of the Holy Spirit)
6. Receive (the Holy Spirit, this makes all the difference)

I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light.
 
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Frogster

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There is faith, like the OT people had, but there is a difference...then there is "the" faith...
You said "Red above, because Gal 3 talks about the Spirit and Abraham, not money."

I ask you now to give scripture elsewhere that contradicts Galatians 3:16, and says Galatians is only speaking of spiritual blessings . And how would you define "spiritual blessing" ?
vs 16
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, he does not say, 'and to seeds as referring to many, but rather to one 'and to your seed' , that is Christ. "


And I repeat, why would God grant the blessings to Abraham, and all his offspring, and leave Christians out ?

Romans 11 says gentile Christians are grafted into the "rich root of the olive tree" what would you say the rich root included ?
Ohhhhhh....franky
You said "Red above, because Gal 3 talks about the Spirit and Abraham, not money."

I ask you now to give scripture elsewhere that contradicts Galatians 3:16, and says Galatians is only speaking of spiritual blessings . And how would you define "spiritual blessing" ?
vs 16
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, he does not say, 'and to seeds as referring to many, but rather to one 'and to your seed' , that is Christ. "


And I repeat, why would God grant the blessings to Abraham, and all his offspring, and leave Christians out ?

Romans 11 says gentile Christians are grafted into the "rich root of the olive tree" what would you say the rich root included ?
Franky, when it says the Holy Spirit of God, lets not put money in that..lets not attach money there. thanks.
 
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Svt4Him

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Old Covenant
1. Repent (repent, or should that be obey)
2. Believe (in the Law)
3. Confess (the Covenant given by God to Israel)
4. Obey (the many Laws along with its Temple obligations and sacrifices)
5. Endure (the painstaking and burdonsome Law through human strength & effort)​

New Covenant
1. Repent (of my sin)
2. Believe (that the Son of God died on my behalf)
3. Confess (my inherent sin)
4. Obey (the leading of the Spirit and with the Word of God)
5. Endure (through the Power of the Holy Spirit)
6. Receive (the Holy Spirit, this makes all the difference)

I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light.

And I agree, yours are.

1. Repent of sin. If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways. And Jesus said, Go and sin no more.
2. Believe in what God has said, the blessings and the curses. God blesses those who fear Him, again OT and NT
3. Confess who your God is, confess your faith, Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Some NT verses? If you confess me before men...
4. Obey what God said, it's our choice to. Chose this day who you will serve. You say you love God, obey. Obedience is better than sacrifice.
5. Don't grow weary. Only two who left Egypt made it. Fight the good fight. Those who endure will be saved.
 
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Steeno7

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And I agree, yours are.

1. Repent of sin. If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways. And Jesus said, Go and sin no more.
2. Believe in what God has said, the blessings and the curses. God blesses those who fear Him, again OT and NT
3. Confess who your God is, confess your faith, Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Some NT verses? If you confess me before men...
4. Obey what God said, it's our choice to. Chose this day who you will serve. You say you love God, obey. Obedience is better than sacrifice.
5. Don't grow weary. Only two who left Egypt made it. Fight the good fight. Those who endure will be saved.


Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no One else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
 
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ToBeLoved

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May I ask why would one repent, before they believe? If one does not believe that Christ is the Savior of the world, why would one repent? Does one not need to believe first?

Could one say "I don't know if you exist and died for my sins, but just in case you are up there, let me repent for my sins now and I'll believe in step #2?"
 
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franky67

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There is faith, like the OT people had, but there is a difference...then there is "the" faith...

Ohhhhhh....franky

Franky, when it says the Holy Spirit of God, lets not put money in that..lets not attach money there. thanks.
Frog, my brother, where's the beef ?

You ignored my questions.

So I.ll put it another way, IF The new testament is absolutely brand new, and we are saved and guaranteed salvation, ie, eternity in heaven, what else is gained by being "joint heirs" with Christ ?

IOW, what else is there for us except salvation of our souls ?
 
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franky67

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That's correct, Israel or each individual Israelite was certainly on their own where their obedience to the Laws that God imposed upon Israel relied entirely on their own human effort and strength. This is in complete contrast to the New Covenant where each Believer has recieved the Eschatological Holy Spirit which is a fortaste of the future Kindom of God. What Israel experienced under the Old Covenant was only a shadow of the experiential relationship where under the New Covenant we have become the children of God not only through the sacrifice of the Son but through the sanctifying and empowering presence of the Holy Spirit.


You surprised me with "it's new to me", all you have to do is to go and pick up virtually any book on theology and take notice of 2000 years of Christian history. Over the years, I will grant that I've come across the occasional person who believes similar things as you, even within Pentecostal circles, but I've always tried to keep my distance from them as their views I have always recognised and understood to be verging on or even crossing into heresy.

Now I recognise that your views regarding the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit that they seem to be common within North American fundamentalism, but how this type of perspective can be found within Full Gospel circles, even to this day, it has me at a complete loss.

Maybe I should return to the PDF article that you linked to where we can go through it point by point, this could undoubtedly help others as well.



Edit: After posting, I went and checked out the college where the article was found and I was not surprised to see that they are aligned with the independent Baptists. I've yet to see if the document has been endorsed by them but as they are fundy's then it would not surprise me as the theology of the independent Baptists are more bini-tarian (Father & Son alone) than Trinitarian, where maybe it even crosses into Christomonism (Jesus only).

In their statement of 'faith' they show their true colours with:
"We believe that gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to build up the body of Christ. We believe that the sign gifts of the Spirit were given only for the apostolic era, providing revelation and authenticating the ministry of the apostles".

First, it wasn't me who posted the link to the article re/ "Holy Spirit in the OT ", that was a Baptist, I do not see what cessationism has to do with our subject.

I agree that the indwelling Holy Spirit was not in the OT, but the HS did closely influence and enable many OT. David said in Psalm 40:8 "..........Thy law is in my heart."

David wrote many words to tell of his closeness to God . Psalm 23 comes to mind besides hundred of others.

Please explain what it is, that you think I believe, that is heresy ?


I just don't understand your statements that The OT Jews were on their own, Israel the nation, has always been the apple of God's eye. He made an everlasting covenant with them, which we share in as grafted in branches to the rich root of the Olive tree. Rom. 11, and Gal 3.
 
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ToBeLoved

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First, it wasn't me who posted the link to the article re/ "Holy Spirit in the OT ", that was a Baptist, I do not see what cessationism has to do with our subject.

I agree that the indwelling Holy Spirit was not in the OT, but the HS did closely influence and enable many OT. David said in Psalm 40:8 "..........Thy law is in my heart."

David wrote many words to tell of his closeness to God . Psalm 23 comes to mind besides hundred of others.

Please explain what it is, that you think I believe, that is heresy ?


I just don't understand your statements that The OT Jews were on their own, Israel the nation, has always been the apple of God's eye. He made an everlasting covenant with them, which we share in as grafted in branches to the rich root of the Olive tree. Rom. 11, and Gal 3.

I would just like to ask, why do you feel that David saying in Psalm 40:8 that the law is in my heart is evidence of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? The same with Psalm 23. The Old Testament did have the Law, given to Moses, so there was guidance there as far as what God wanted from them, but I do not see in your examples, particuarly of the Psalms that is particularly saying that they were guided by God Himself in the Holy Spirit, rather than their understanding of the Law as was given to Moses?

I don't know if this will clarify what someone else said, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I can see why someone would say that to a degree the people of the Old Testament were on their own, because they did not have God Himself (HS) residing inside of them. Does that not make all the difference in the world? That is one of the things that Jesus died to give us in the New Covenant. God even said that the New Covenant in His Word was eons better than the Old Covenant. Why would we not describe and understand the same?

They had to overcome sin and the Law without the indwelling presence of God? Who can do that now with the indwelling presence of God? How can we not see that they were not at a disadvantage that is undescribable?
 
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Svt4Him

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May I ask why would one repent, before they believe? If one does not believe that Christ is the Savior of the world, why would one repent? Does one not need to believe first?

Could one say "I don't know if you exist and died for my sins, but just in case you are up there, let me repent for my sins now and I'll believe in step #2?"

"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"

I think one needs to know they need to be saved before they will look for a saviour. Repentance shows the need.
 
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franky67

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I would just like to ask, why do you feel that David saying in Psalm 40:8 that the law is in my heart is evidence of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? The same with Psalm 23. The Old Testament did have the Law, given to Moses, so there was guidance there as far as what God wanted from them, but I do not see in your examples, particuarly of the Psalms that is particularly saying that they were guided by God Himself in the Holy Spirit, rather than their understanding of the Law as was given to Moses?

I don't know if this will clarify what someone else said, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I can see why someone would say that to a degree the people of the Old Testament were on their own, because they did not have God Himself (HS) residing inside of them. Does that not make all the difference in the world? That is one of the things that Jesus died to give us in the New Covenant. God even said that the New Covenant in His Word was eons better than the Old Covenant. Why would we not describe and understand the same?

They had to overcome sin and the Law without the indwelling presence of God? Who can do that now with the indwelling presence of God? How can we not see that they were not at a disadvantage that is undescribable?

God is the Holy Spirit, He was active in the OT, in Ps 23 It was God, the Holy Spirit, who was David's Shepherd, David said, "thou art with me, Thy rod and staff, they comfort me"

It was a repentant David who asked God not to take His Holy Spirit from him in Psalm 51:11
 
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