Help with Spiritual Warfare. Question on Jude 1:9

I have followed Jesus since 1982 and wrestle with this passage also. If anyone could point to resource(s) that specifically addresses this verse it would be very helpful.

Common Laborer said:

My question is, can anyone help me understand Jude 1:8-11? I don't want to wander into error while wrestling with Powers and Principalities.

Click to expand...

How do you think that you "wrestle" with powers and principalities?

Privates only fight privates, units fight units, and so on.
The attitude is that of people that assume to know what they cannot fathom, let alone perform.
Believers should not delve into what the angelic beings do on our behalf.
The attitude problem is that of people on their way out.

Common Laborer said:

Hi All,
I'm still a fair noob to Spiritual warfare - maybe only awake to the idea for 7 years and only active for 3. God is my passion, not chasing the dark side around. However, God has recently shown me that I can't just ignore the enemy. I thought I basically could because "He who is in me is greater" but I see now that there's a reason we have the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

My question is, can anyone help me understand Jude 1:8-11? I don't want to wander into error while wrestling with Powers and Principalities.

Verses below.

Thanks in advance.

CL<><

Jude 1:8-11
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [i]angelic majesties.9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [j]destroyed.11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [k]they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Click to expand...

i think you need to rewire your logic

how comfortable are you with mark virkler ?
http://www.cwgministries.org/Four-Keys-to-Hearing-Gods-Voice

don't use the sword without listening to GOD first

Common Laborer said:

Jude 1:8-11
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [i]angelic majesties.9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [j]destroyed.11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [k]they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Click to expand...

First of all, I think you should read II Peter 2 right before or after reading this chapter, because the two chapters complement one another so well. II Peter 2:10 seems to be on the same part of the argument as Jude here.

"But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."

So the false teachers in II Peter and the false brethren in Jude are so presumptuous, that they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. It would seem, looking at both passages together, that speaking evil of the devil would be an example of this. As Christians, we should not curse Satan, call Him taunting names, pretend to 'kick the devil' (actually heard of this) call him names like old Slewfoot, etc. It's foolish and it's not the way the Bible teaches to address spiritual powers.

I'm not saying Charismatics who do this are all false believers, but Charismatics and others who do the old 1980's and 1990's so-called 'spiritual warfare' need to be careful. Some of them seem to be emulating the false believers and false teachers, IMO.

What I'm talking about is commanding and bossing around principalities, real or imagined, in the heavens. There are also these ideas that don't really make sense Biblically about casting the demons or principalities out of a city. Supposedly, you can look at what the spiritual problems are in a city and name demons after them. If a lot of people get drunk, there is a spirit of drunkenness. If a lot of people commit fornication, there is a spirit or principality of fornication. Then you pray, or drive, fly, or walk around the city while you pray, and command all those spirits to come out.

But what about this?
Matthew 12
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

So if you cast all the demons out of all the people in town, what do you do when they come back with 7 times the reinforcements? If those people aren't all filled up so the demons have no way to enter, what good is it to cast those demons out, assuming it worked?

Spiritual warfare has to be done with the word of God. The armor passage isn't about yelling at demons. It's about salvation, righteousness, truth, the preparation of the Gospel of peace, and the word of God, and we are to use these with prayer and supplication. Prayer is talking to God, not the devil, unless one is some kind of devil worshipper.

Jesus cast demons out of individuals when He perceived a demon and/or when a demon obviously manifested. That's what the apostles did, too.

I've taught on this topic a little. But I think the late John Paul Jackson's video does a top-notch job on this for conciseness and impact. I don't know about his numbering of the heavens because I can't see it in scripture clearly laid out, but otherwise, this little teaching is really excellent.
<

Optimax said:

How do you think that you "wrestle" with powers and principalities?

Click to expand...

Paul's spiritual warfare was done with prayer and preaching the word. Look at II Corinthians 10, often used as a 'spiritual warfare' passage by those who want to scream orders at real or imagined principalities. But look at it-- casting down imaginations and every high thought. Paul warred by preaching and teaching.

Some people are raving demoniacs. They need demons cast out of them. But they need to be filled, not 'empty swept and garnished.' They need to then believe the gospel, be filled with the Spirit and have their hearts filled with the word of God.
Unclean spirits come back to reinhabit places that are 'empty, swept and garnished.' So preaching and teaching is an important part of spiritual warfare, keeping the enemy from taking souls, the territory being fought for, or at least a big part of it.

Other people aren't raving demoniacs, but they are under Satan's kingdom because they believe his lies. The individual like this who encountered Paul preaching the word would have those lies challenged. Paul's preaching cast down imaginations and high thoughts that exalted him against the knowledge of God.

In the armor passage speaks of a weapon, the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

If yelling at principalities in the heavens and telling them what to do were the solution, why don't we ever read about Jesus and the apostles doing it? Why do we get these warnings in Jude and II Peter about false teachers and false brethren doing something that sounds, at the very least, very similar to this?

As far as I know, Peter Wagoner started this trend with one of his books, or gave it momentum, where he told of three cases where commanding the principalities was supposedly the catalyst to great revivals or change. I spoke with a missionary who was in India in the region he wrote about, and he said that wasn't accurate. There were many brethren laboring for a long time before revival broke out. Wagoner may have known about someone going there and doing this so-called 'spiritual warfare' stuff before the revival broke out, but that doesn't mean what they did caused it.

(Jud 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


(Jud 1:10) But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

..................

(Num 16:1) Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:

(Num 16:2) And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:


(Num 16:3) And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

(Jud 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
............................
(Num 16:4) And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:


(Num 16:5) And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

(Jud 1:13) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
(2Pe 2:4) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,

....................................
(Num 16:32) and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth them, and their houses, and all the men who are for Korah, and all the goods,


(Num 16:33) and they go down, they, and all that they have, alive to Sheol, and the earth closeth over them, and they perish from the midst of the assembly;

rdclmn7 said:

Privates only fight privates, units fight units, and so on.
The attitude is that of people that assume to know what they cannot fathom, let alone perform.
Believers should not delve into what the angelic beings do on our behalf.
The attitude problem is that of people on their way out.

Click to expand...

I want to commend Common Laborer for asking the question. You evidence a teachable heart a good attitude.

Common Laborer said:

Hi All,
I'm still a fair noob to Spiritual warfare - maybe only awake to the idea for 7 years and only active for 3. God is my passion, not chasing the dark side around. However, God has recently shown me that I can't just ignore the enemy. I thought I basically could because "He who is in me is greater" but I see now that there's a reason we have the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

My question is, can anyone help me understand Jude 1:8-11? I don't want to wander into error while wrestling with Powers and Principalities.

Verses below.

Thanks in advance.

CL<><

Jude 1:8-11
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [i]angelic majesties.9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [j]destroyed.11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [k]they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Click to expand...

The error of Baalam was that he taught the enemy to corrupt the israelites before attacking, the error of Korah was that he rebelled against the established leaders claiming everyone was holy and there should be no hierarchy, the error of Cain was that he was under the impression that he was not his brother's keeper.

So by "dreaming" as Cain did to kill his brother so he would not be number two, and defiling the flesh as Baalam did, and rejecting authority as Korah did before he was swallowed by the earth, seem to do spiritual warfare by railing insults at fallen angels, but this is carnality and in the end it will bring them to destruction.

So I think this has to do with those people in church who are obsessed with addressing the Devil and teaching on the Devil's so called deep secrets, so much that Jesus is not heard of whenever they speak. This is like the errors of Cain, Baalam, and Korah because it contains those three elements, no concern for those who cannot yet deal with the beings they are calling on, corrupting the essence of the fellowship by giving them attention instead of Jesus to whom all glory is due, and in giving more attention to these beings it gives honour to those beings instead of the True God, Jesus Christ.

Common Laborer said:

Hi All,
I'm still a fair noob to Spiritual warfare - maybe only awake to the idea for 7 years and only active for 3. God is my passion, not chasing the dark side around. However, God has recently shown me that I can't just ignore the enemy. I thought I basically could because "He who is in me is greater" but I see now that there's a reason we have the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

My question is, can anyone help me understand Jude 1:8-11? I don't want to wander into error while wrestling with Powers and Principalities.

Verses below.

Thanks in advance.

CL<><

Jude 1:8-11
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [i]angelic majesties.9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [j]destroyed.11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [k]they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Click to expand...

Jude is talking about certain men at that time who, among other things, put "stumbling blocks" or occassions for sin, in the Israelites way. In the first portion of the verse he is giving warning to those men who apparently were speaking to fallen angels in a way in which they were not smart to do. In other words, whenever Moses died we know that Satan fought over the physical body of Moses after he died (please remember that Moses body was important because he appeared along with Elijah at the transfiguation of Jesus on the mountain), and although the arch angel had authority from the Lord, he never once spoke judgment or made accusation against him, but said The Lord rebuke you!

My friend PLEASE turn away from the teachings of spiritual warfare that are beyond what the scripture teaches us, which is to resist the ememy through our will and help from the LORD. We resist the devil when we resist fullfilling the desires of our flesh because satan works by tempting us in our weakness of our flesh. We resist the devil and do spiritual warfare by being strong in the Lord and having faith which is our sheild and also the Word which is the sword of the spirit. My friend please dont leave a door open for the ememy. Unknowingly many have been led astray and have been confused and blinded by so called "spiritual warfare". Focus on the Lord, because we have already overcome the evil one according to 1 John. Be alert in prayer to God with thanksgiving and resist the temptations of the flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit. Seek the Lord and keep your eye on the hope that you have which is the salvation that the Lord will reveal the Last day.

My friend I pray the Lord will give you understanding so that you will have peace on this matter and by his mercy I pray you will not be given over to any untrue teachings. My friend do not rejoice that demons submit to you but that your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life.

God bless you

Common Laborer said:

Hi All,
I'm still a fair noob to Spiritual warfare - maybe only awake to the idea for 7 years and only active for 3. God is my passion, not chasing the dark side around. However, God has recently shown me that I can't just ignore the enemy. I thought I basically could because "He who is in me is greater" but I see now that there's a reason we have the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

My question is, can anyone help me understand Jude 1:8-11? I don't want to wander into error while wrestling with Powers and Principalities.

Verses below.

Thanks in advance.

CL<><

Jude 1:8-11
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [i]angelic majesties.9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [j]destroyed.11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [k]they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Click to expand...

Jude is talking about certain men at that time who, among other things, put "stumbling blocks" or occassions for sin, in the Israelites way. In the first portion of the verse he is giving warning to those men who apparently were speaking to fallen angels in a way in which they were not smart to do. In other words, whenever Moses died we know that Satan fought over the physical body of Moses after he died (please remember that Moses body was important because he appeared along with Elijah at the transfiguation of Jesus on the mountain), and although the arch angel had authority from the Lord, he never once spoke judgment or made accusation against him, but said The Lord rebuke you!

My friend PLEASE turn away from the teachings of spiritual warfare that are beyond what the scripture teaches us, which is to resist the ememy through our will and help from the LORD. We resist the devil when we resist fullfilling the desires of our flesh because satan works by tempting us in our weakness of our flesh. We resist the devil and do spiritual warfare by being strong in the Lord and having faith which is our sheild and also the Word which is the sword of the spirit. My friend please dont leave a door open for the ememy. Unknowingly many have been led astray and have been confused and blinded by so called "spiritual warfare"--myself included, and thats why I want u to know that Im no better than you and hope you see that I warn as sister in Christ.

Focus on the Lord, because we have already overcome the evil one according to 1 John. Be alert in prayer to God with thanksgiving and resist the temptations of the flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit. Seek the Lord and keep your eye on the hope that you have which is the salvation that the Lord will reveal the Last day.

My friend I pray the Lord will give you understanding so that you will have peace on this matter and by his mercy I pray you will not be given over to any untrue teachings. My friend do not rejoice that demons submit to you but that your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life.

God bless you

LinkH said:

First of all, I think you should read II Peter 2 right before or after reading this chapter, because the two chapters complement one another so well. II Peter 2:10 seems to be on the same part of the argument as Jude here.

"But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."

So the false teachers in II Peter and the false brethren in Jude are so presumptuous, that they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. It would seem, looking at both passages together, that speaking evil of the devil would be an example of this. As Christians, we should not curse Satan, call Him taunting names, pretend to 'kick the devil' (actually heard of this) call him names like old Slewfoot, etc. It's foolish and it's not the way the Bible teaches to address spiritual powers.

I'm not saying Charismatics who do this are all false believers, but Charismatics and others who do the old 1980's and 1990's so-called 'spiritual warfare' need to be careful. Some of them seem to be emulating the false believers and false teachers, IMO.

What I'm talking about is commanding and bossing around principalities, real or imagined, in the heavens. There are also these ideas that don't really make sense Biblically about casting the demons or principalities out of a city. Supposedly, you can look at what the spiritual problems are in a city and name demons after them. If a lot of people get drunk, there is a spirit of drunkenness. If a lot of people commit fornication, there is a spirit or principality of fornication. Then you pray, or drive, fly, or walk around the city while you pray, and command all those spirits to come out.

But what about this?
Matthew 12
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

So if you cast all the demons out of all the people in town, what do you do when they come back with 7 times the reinforcements? If those people aren't all filled up so the demons have no way to enter, what good is it to cast those demons out, assuming it worked?

Spiritual warfare has to be done with the word of God. The armor passage isn't about yelling at demons. It's about salvation, righteousness, truth, the preparation of the Gospel of peace, and the word of God, and we are to use these with prayer and supplication. Prayer is talking to God, not the devil, unless one is some kind of devil worshipper.

Jesus cast demons out of individuals when He perceived a demon and/or when a demon obviously manifested. That's what the apostles did, too.

I've taught on this topic a little. But I think the late John Paul Jackson's video does a top-notch job on this for conciseness and impact. I don't know about his numbering of the heavens because I can't see it in scripture clearly laid out, but otherwise, this little teaching is really excellent.

Click to expand...

That was a superb reply.

LinkH said:

If yelling at principalities in the heavens and telling them what to do were the solution, why don't we ever read about Jesus and the apostles doing it? Why do we get these warnings in Jude and II Peter about false teachers and false brethren doing something that sounds, at the very least, very similar to this?

As far as I know, Peter Wagoner started this trend with one of his books, or gave it momentum, where he told of three cases where commanding the principalities was supposedly the catalyst to great revivals or change. I spoke with a missionary who was in India in the region he wrote about, and he said that wasn't accurate. There were many brethren laboring for a long time before revival broke out. Wagoner may have known about someone going there and doing this so-called 'spiritual warfare' stuff before the revival broke out, but that doesn't mean what they did caused it.

Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned Peter Wagner is an academic that likes writing about Christianity.

He takes 'situations' that he feels pertains to Christians and develops them into new concepts and give it an interesting name. Wagner relies more on conducting experimentation in God's name than anything else. All Wagner cares about is does it grow a church? Doesn't matter if soul's are saved or not, just get' em in the pews so he can count 'em.

I'D NEVER READ ANOTHER OF HIS BOOKS. Wagner cares about POWER.

I've never read anything that he's written that makes me think he is spiritual and personally bonds with the Lord. He experiments with concepts and see's which have some power. He is sterile, like a new tongue deppresor wrapped in paper from a reputable hospital supply company. Nothing so special, just a stick in a wrapper. nothing I'd ever think about following or emulating or even give a second thought too.

I despise those who use Christianity as a sterile, topic to write about. Despise.

The following two PNG images of Ben Witheringtons work on Jude 1:8 & 9 might be of interest to some. As the material probably goes beyond the norms for Fair Copying when it comes to discussion purposes, I've include them as non OCR (non-readable) text and blanked out one paragraph of verse 8. It complements the post by LinkH (#6) where he explained verse 9 superbly.

If you Right-click on each image and select "View Image" then this should make each image easier to read, or even copy it for later viewing.