Regnum Caelorum

BABerean2

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Those who believe that we are already in the Millennium are self-deceived and deceiving others. When Christ literally and physically establishes His Kingdom on earth, there will be universal peace, prosperity and righteousness, while Satan and all his minions are bound.

Which of these is really the first resurrection?



Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Resurrection A ?



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. or Resurrection B ?



Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
or Resurrection C?

.
 
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Dave Watchman

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Which of these is really the first resurrection?

This is the first resurrection!


Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!

Over such the second death
has no power,

but they will be
priests of God and of Christ,

and they will reign with him for a thousand years!



(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
 
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Dialogist

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Literal Millennialism was a minority belief held by a small but vocal group in Asia minor. It was never a universal position of the church and was rejected for many reasons but the one I recall as the strongest reason for doing so was based on the idea that when a person died they had to wait in a state of soul sleep (can't remember how it was described) until Christ returned. When Christ returned the soul was resurrected with the body and lived during the millennial period.

I logged into Amazon to find the author of the title I wanted to recommend and found a great review that outlines the work. In the review you'll find ample evidence why the church rejected millennialism.

The Review: Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity: Charles E. Hill: 9780802846341: Books - Amazon.ca

There is a common misconception among Christians that the early Church's eschatology was universally premillennial and only gradually did this premillennialism (or chiliasm) fall out of favor with the credit (or blame) usually given to Origen and Augustine. This claim, often put forward by those clinging to Dispensationalist eschatology, overlooks the fact that the earliest Church Fathers have no trace of chiliasm in the eschatalogical passages of their writings. It is only in the second century that chiiasm appears and goes on to be the more widely held position - although never universally so - and then fades again in popularity.

The questions then become:

Where did chiliasm originate?

Why did it become so widespread?

What led to its demise?

In Regnum Caelorum, Charles E. Hill explores these question and in the process arrives at some ground breaking conclusions on the connection between the rise of chiliasm and the disemination of certain beliefs in the nature of the intermediate state between the believer's earthly passing and resurrection popularized by two pseudopigraphical Jewish apocalyptic writings that had attained some status within the fledgling Christian community. These two writings - II Baruch and IV Ezra - intimately linked the belief that souls would remain in Hades until the establishment of the millennial kingdom and not go to heaven as believed by others.

Hill begins by noting that during the height of chiliasm, its most ardent defenders did state that there were true believers in Christ who did not hold the chiliast position. One of the most famous was St. Irenaeus of Lyon who believed that Christians not holding to a chiliast position were troubled because they - wrongly in his mind - believed the souls of the faithful departed would go to heaven and a subsequent return to an earthly millennial kingdom would be a step back from the glories of the beatific vision. Instead, St. Irenaeus asserted that their souls would remain in Hades - located in the bowels of the earth - unitl Christ returns and not in heaven (with an exception made for the martyrs) and so such concerns were baseless.

With a possible link in Irenaeus of chiliasm and an intermediate state in Hades, Hill then examines other chiliasts for further evidence of a similar connection. Papias, a well known figure of the early second century Church whose writings we now only have in fragements quoted by St. Irenaeus and others, held eschatalogical views that were dependant upon the pseudopigraphical II Baruch. Since II Baruch ties in chiliasm and the view of an intermediate state in Hades, it is likely that Papias held a similar outlook and it was through Papias' influence that St. Irenaeus came to the a similar position.

Turning to a chiliast between St. Justin Martyr, a chiliast whose writings appeared between Papias and St. Irenaeus, Hill finds a similar connection between chiliasm and Hades as an intermediate state. There is some dispute as to the consistency in his writings on both matters, but where his he assert chiliasm, the subterranean intermediate state assertion also appears. Hill then turns to other Christian chiliasts throughout the ante-Nicene period and finds that, with one exception, all of them also hold to the belief in a subterranean intermediate state in Hades (with some but not all making an exception for the martyrs). The one exception is late - St. Methodius of Olympus at the turn of the fourth century - and was reacting to criticism by Origen by attempting to fuse elements of chiliast and non-chiliast eschatologies. Thus a strong correspondence of the two beliefs is established.

Having established a link within chiliasm - possibly through Papias - to the eschatalogical views expressed in Jewish pseudopigraphia, Hill takes a look at Jewish eschatalogical speculation in the peiod. There was a great deal of messianic fervor within Judaism prior to the time of Christ and this heightened after the shock of the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jersualem. From that date until the Roman's crushing the Bar Kochba revolt (~130 A.D.), an intense period of apocalyptic speculation occurred in Phariseeic circles and it was during this period that II Baruch and IV Ezra - the only Jewish books to link chiliasm and the subterranean intermediate state - were from this period. The interaction of early Christians with Jews during this period certainly would have familiarized them with such expectations and Papias, St. Justin Martyr, and the author of the Epistle of Barnabas all demonstrate a dependancy on one or both of these documents. It was through this influence that we see that such beliefs entered into the Christian consciousness at the turn of the second century A.D. Hill further notes that the entry of such beliefs is marked by some gnostic writers reacting to the chiliast belief and in so confirming its linkage to the belief in a subterranean intermediate state.

Hill then begins to examine the writings of non-chiliasts in the ante-Nicene Church. First examining the writings of the first century Apostolic Fathers, he demonstrates both the lack of chiliastic beliefs and a of belief in a subterranean intermediate state. In fact, there is strong evidence of a contrary belief in a heavenly intermediate state. This pattern is also reflected in the writings of non-chiliast Christians, Christian pseudopigraphia, and Christian martyrologies of the second century.

Hill then tackles the issue of the Montanists. The excesses of the Montanist movement (and its subsequent censure by the Church) are often credited with the decline of chiliasm on the assumption that Montanists were largely chiliasts. However, Hill points out that the patristic critics of Montanism - including many who ardently opposed chiliasm - did not bring up any such link. The misconception may result from the fact that Tertullian, by far the best known figure to embrace Montanism, was also a chiliast but he was a chiliast long before he was a Montanist. In fact, the description of Montanist beliefs we find in the Church Fathers indicates a variety of eschatalogical positions. There is no doubt, however, that an erroneous link between the two became established later.

The author then turns to the period when the tide begins to turn against chiliasm. He shows this change in fortunes corresponds to an eschatalogical shift to a position that increasingly looked heavenword. In the third century, the chiliast position would fall out of favor by this trend and the accompanying criticism of the theologians of the Alexandrian school who recoiled at the earthly emphasis of the chiliast eschatology.

Having established a strong connection between views on the intermediate state and position on chiliasm (chiliasm/subterranean intermediate state vs. non-chiliasm/heavenly intermediate state), Hill looks to the eschatalogical passages of the New Testament to see whether a millennial view can be clearly articulated or at least hinted at by a view of the intermediate state of the faithful departed. In demonstrating no advocacy of a chiliast position in the Epistles and the Gospels, he also points out the many references to a heavenly abode for the faithful departed. This is still further evidence that these writings were not advocating a chiliast view. With this in mind, he then tackles the Book of Revelation and shows how the imagery is best understood in the context of a Christian community that had no understanding of chiliasm. He points out how the imagery deviates greatly from that normally associated with a chiliast view and concludes that later chiliast readings were not in keeping with the original intent and were likely the result of imposing a chiliastic matrix derived from Jewish pseudopigraphia upon the text.

Hill then closes the book by tying together some loose ends from earlier chapters. He gives a summary of his findings and points out how in the revival of chiliasm in elements of the radical reformation, the same issue of a retreat from the heavenly abode was confronted and was solved by introducing the idea of soul sleep. Although not mentioned, one could also point out that contemporary dispensationalists evade this issue by dividing the people of God into God's earthly people (believing Jews) and heavenly people (Christians) and the millennium is only for the former. Hill then returns to the statement of St. Irenaeus that good Christians disagreed on this issue and from earlier studies concludes who he may have had in mind. The author also points to the evidence supporting the belief that chiliasm was not something St. Irenaeus inherited from St. Polycarp but departed from earlier beliefs to an alternate eschatology that he believed was better able to combat gnosticism. He then gives an exegesis of Revelation 20 using the writings of ante-Nicene non-chiliasts and concludes with some final remarks on New Testament Eschatology.

In its thoroughness in studying the eschatological views of the early Church, Regnum Caelorum puts to rest the idea that the earliest Christian eschatology was universally premillennial. In so doing, the linkage of millennial views with corresponding outlooks on the intermediate state links the chiliast eschatology with views that are objectively rejected by the New Testament texts. For anyone interested in the development of eschatology in the early Church, it is absolutely essential reading. [end of review]



jm

This is a lot of stuff.

What exactly is the topic being proposed/questions or comments being posed for discussion?
 
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BABerean2

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This is the first resurrection!


Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!

Over such the second death
has no power,

but they will be
priests of God and of Christ,

and they will reign with him for a thousand years!



(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)


How about the other two I gave. Do we just ignore them?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. You were spiritually dead before you were in-Christ.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Present tense. What is this and when does it happen?


Where are these "souls" reigning with Jesus?

Are we to believe that the One who conquered sin and death at the cross is going to come back to a world where sin and death continue for 1,000 years?


The New Heavens and the New Earth come in with Christ on the Day of the Lord.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


This rotten, sin cursed world is going to be burned up at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

..................................................................................

There will be one simultaneous resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Daniel said so...



Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Jesus said the same thing...


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Paul confirmed it also.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.



And so did John.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



The only logical way to resolve the conflict in scripture is to understand that the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 is the spiritual resurrection of these souls, when they are born-again.

The other way to resolve the conflict is to ignore the other passages, which does not resolve the issue at all.

.




 
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Dave Watchman

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him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Present tense. What is this and when does it happen?

It means, it's all good. Don't worry about it. It's like money in the bank. It's a sure thing. It's as good as done. Even though it hasn't happened yet. Not everyone can understand it. It's like having eyes to see and ears to hear. It's a Calvinist thing.
If a person reads the Gospels and believes in Jesus it means that they were picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. Consider it a done deal.

Where are these "souls" reigning with Jesus?

Are we to believe that the One who conquered sin and death at the cross is going to come back to a world where sin and death continue for 1,000 years?

I don't know about "we" but you can if you want. Jesus is coming back here to get me and take me back to His Father's House.

"If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also"
The New Heavens and the New Earth come in with Christ on the Day of the Lord.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This rotten, sin cursed world is going to be burned up at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I'm sorry to disappoint you old boy but you're about 1000 years premature on your prediction.

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire"<--This happens after the 1000 years. Can't blow up the world until this is finished, can we?
There will be one simultaneous resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Daniel said so...



Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Jesus said the same thing...


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Paul confirmed it also.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.



And so did John.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



The only logical way to resolve the conflict in scripture is to understand that the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 is the spiritual resurrection of these souls, when they are born-again.

The other way to resolve the conflict is to ignore the other passages, which does not resolve the issue at all.

Daniel rules, he's one of my most favorites. A man loved by God. That's like hearing God say "a man after my own heart", imagine that.

The Old Daniel verse and the New Testament verses including our Saviour's Word are in no way violated by the new Revelation of 1000 years in between these two resurrection events.

Soon the hour will come and the angels will gather His Elect from the four winds.

1000 years latter another "hour" will arrive and we will look out of the Holy City into the faces of the lost who are about to be annihilated.

I can't say that I'm looking forward to it, it's keeping me up at night.

 
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Dave Watchman

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This is a lot of stuff.

What exactly is the topic being proposed/questions or comments being posed for discussion?

I agree. To much to address.

The questions then become:

Where did chiliasm originate?

Why did it become so widespread?

What led to its demise?

In Regnum Caelorum, Charles E. Hill explores these question and in the process arrives at some ground breaking conclusions on the connection between the rise of chiliasm and the disemination of certain beliefs in the nature of the intermediate state between the believer's earthly passing and resurrection popularized by two pseudopigraphical Jewish apocalyptic writings that had attained some status within the fledgling Christian community. These two writings - II Baruch and IV Ezra - intimately linked the belief that souls would remain in Hades until the establishment of the millennial kingdom and not go to heaven as believed by others.

chil•i•asm (ˈkɪl iˌæz əm)

the doctrine of Christ's expected return to reign on earth for 1000 years; millennialism.
[1600–10; < Greek chīliasmós=chili(oi) 1000 + -asmos, variant of -ismos -ism before stems ending in -i-]
chil′i•ast` (-ˌæst) n.
chil`i•as′tic, adj.
 
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mmksparbud

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Revelation clearly states that THE CITY comes down from heaven. So the city is in heaven and He is preparing it for us--just like it says. I do believe He must be about done now! But the city doesn't come down and touch earth until after the 1000 years. He will bring the city down to a remade earth after the 1000 years. Neither God, nor the city, are going to touch this used up, decaying sinful world until it has been cleansed and remade.
 
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Berean777

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Revelation clearly states that THE CITY comes down from heaven. So the city is in heaven and He is preparing it for us--just like it says. I do believe He must be about done now! But the city doesn't come down and touch earth until after the 1000 years. He will bring the city down to a remade earth after the 1000 years. Neither God, nor the city, are going to touch this used up, decaying sinful world until it has been cleansed and remade.

Remade into what, the same dirt that we call earth which is earthy or as Paul states the heavenly as the Lord from Heaven.
 
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Berean777

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The questions then become:

Where did chiliasm originate?

Why did it become so widespread?

What led to its demise?

In Regnum Caelorum, Charles E. Hill explores these question and in the process arrives at some ground breaking conclusions on the connection between the rise of chiliasm and the disemination of certain beliefs in the nature of the intermediate state between the believer's earthly passing and resurrection popularized by two pseudopigraphical Jewish apocalyptic writings that had attained some status within the fledgling Christian community. These two writings - II Baruch and IV Ezra - intimately linked the belief that souls would remain in Hades until the establishment of the millennial kingdom and not go to heaven as believed by others.

chil•i•asm (ˈkɪl iˌæz əm)

the doctrine of Christ's expected return to reign on earth for 1000 years; millennialism.
[1600–10; < Greek chīliasmós=chili(oi) 1000 + -asmos, variant of -ismos -ism before stems ending in -i-]
chil′i•ast` (-ˌæst) n.
chil`i•as′tic, adj.

Millennium reign on earth is a notion that has the believers who left this God forsaken planet through trails and tribulation to only say here we go again.

It failed because believers look towards a better place than being respawned on earth in a matter of speak. Jesus says where I am there you shall also be. Jesus pointed to his Father's house that has many rooms, as to say that it would more than accomodate you in comparison to the ghetto of this world.

I know the church of Babylon rejected it from 34AD and continues to reject it today.

I believe it became widespread because it appealed to the earthly reigned, that originated from the Jewish mentality and their interpretations, that the misguided few accepted on face value and parroted to their hearts content. The saying goes if you repeat a lie long enough soon it will be assumed to be the truth. Humans operate by repetitive behaviour and hearings the same interpretation from misguided few that are high ranking amongst ecclesiastical authority certainly dragged the sheep into this quagmire.
 
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mmksparbud

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Remade into what, the same dirt that we call earth which is earthy or as Paul states the heavenly as the Lord from Heaven.


Hardly. Anymore than this is the same old dirt that Adam and Eve had. God is the same God that called this world into existence that will cleanse this earth with fire and call forth a newly remade planet. It will be as before sin ever entered. Yes, there is the spiritual side of things---however, as for me, it was a real planet He made to begin with, and it will be a real planet He gives us again. The city is His Spiritual bride, as is the church--however, it is a real city and Jesus has been preparing it for us.
 
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Berean777

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Hardly. Anymore than this is the same old dirt that Adam and Eve had. God is the same God that called this world into existence that will cleanse this earth with fire and call forth a newly remade planet. It will be as before sin ever entered. Yes, there is the spiritual side of things---however, as for me, it was a real planet He made to begin with, and it will be a real planet He gives us again. The city is His Spiritual bride, as is the church--however, it is a real city and Jesus has been preparing it for us.

I believe that it will be a real and tangible realm. Are you saying that this planet will be reverted back to the state it was in the Garden of Eden?
 
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mmksparbud

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I believe that it will be a real and tangible realm. Are you saying that this planet will be reverted back to the state it was in the Garden of Eden?

It doesn't say specifically--it does say made new. You do not take something from God--His creation was commandeered by sin--by Satan---He takes it back. I'm believing, if it is possible, that it will be better than what Adam and Eve knew.
 
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Berean777

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It doesn't say specifically--it does say made new. You do not take something from God--His creation was commandeered by sin--by Satan---He takes it back. I'm believing, if it is possible, that it will be better than what Adam and Eve knew.

I don't doubt that one but. However have you read what Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection Body

35But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

40There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

Adam was made from the dirt of the earthy and is a terrestrial body, hence earthy. Paul writes that in the resurrection we will put on the heavenly body from heaven.

The question that I want to ask you is:

If in the resurrection the body is not earthy but heavenly, then why must the heavenly be tied to the earthy in a remade earth as you are insisting it must be?

In short does the heavenly body require the earthy realm like that of Adam? Yes/No. even if you say it will be better in every aspect, but however it is still earthy.
 
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BABerean2

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Soon the hour will come and the angels will gather His Elect from the four winds.

1000 years latter another "hour" will arrive and we will look out of the Holy City into the faces of the lost who are about to be annihilated.

Dave,

You are changing a simultaneous resurrection foretold by Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John into two separate resurrections separated by 1,000 years, by changing the word "hour" to "hours".

A 1,000 year hour is a long one.

You have also changed the "last day" in the resurrection of John chapter 6 to 1,000 years before the last day.

Jesus did not day in the last "days".



Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.



Another problem is we know wicked angels are presently bound.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Present tense


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Present tense

The beast comes out of the bottomless pit. Therefore he must be there now. Present tense

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



You also have Jesus defeating the forces of Satan at the battle of Armageddon so that Satan can be bound and then released 1,000 years later, so that Christ can defeat the forces of Satan again.
..........................................................................

That Holy city you are referring to is the New Jerusalem, which is now above and comes in with the New Heavens and the New Earth at Christ's Second Coming. This fallen world will be burned up at that point.


This verse from Job clearly states that the resurrection occurs when the heavens be no more.

Job_14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.



The following occur in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
The end of the passage sounds much like the Garden of Eden.



Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. The present earth will no longer be remembered, because it will be burned up. (2nd Pet. 3:10)


Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. The New Jerusalem, which is now above


Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.


Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

The 1,000 year carnal kingdom creates tremendous conflict in the text, that must be ignored to get it to work.

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mmksparbud

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I don't doubt that one but. However have you read what Paul said:



Adam was made from the dirt of the earthy and is a terrestrial body, hence earthy. Paul writes that in the resurrection we will put on the heavenly body from heaven.

The question that I want to ask you is:

If in the resurrection the body is not earthy but heavenly, then why must the heavenly be tied to the earthy in a remade earth as you are insisting it must be?

In short does the heavenly body require the earthy realm like that of Adam? Yes/No. even if you say it will be better in every aspect, but however it is still earthy.


I do not insist on anything, I am stating what thee bible says. Adam and Eve are the only ones that God formed individually from dirt (,and a rib)---Everyone else has come from Adam and Eve. The heavenly body merely means that it is the remade physical body---it is no longer imperfect, it will no longer be maimed or diseased, the brain will have it's full potential available to us. Every part will be absolutely perfect as God intended. Christ's body after the resurrection was still fully human--- but it was a heavenly body, remade and glorified.
(Luk 24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

It's good enough for Chris, I'll take it, too!
 
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Job8

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I don't believe we need to go off on a tangent about the first and second resurrections. This thread is about the validity of a literal, physical Millennium, and Scripture makes it perfectly clear that this is a literal period of one thousand years (Gk chilia ete) when Christ personally rules the earth and Satan is bound and cannot interfere. Whether the Amillennialists accept it or reject it, Scripture stands. The earth has never experienced such a period in history, therefore it is yet future, and occurs only after the Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory".
 
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Dave Watchman

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Millennium reign on earth is a notion that has the believers who left this God forsaken planet through trails and tribulation to only say here we go again.

It might work out OK if we could try it without the Devil this time.

It failed because believers look towards a better place than being respawned on earth in a matter of speak. Jesus says where I am there you shall also be. Jesus pointed to his Father's house that has many rooms, as to say that it would more than accomodate you in comparison to the ghetto of this world.

Bingo, that's where I think we'll be for the 1000 years.
There’s a better home a-waiting
In the sky, lord, in the sky

I know the church of Babylon rejected it from 34AD and continues to reject it today.

Which ones the church of Babylon? I don't get out much.

I believe it became widespread because it appealed to the earthly reigned, that originated from the Jewish mentality and their interpretations, that the misguided few accepted on face value and parroted to their hearts content. The saying goes if you repeat a lie long enough soon it will be assumed to be the truth. Humans operate by repetitive behaviour and hearings the same interpretation from misguided few that are high ranking amongst ecclesiastical authority certainly dragged the sheep into this quagmire.

I also think they had to find a place to put all the Old Testament end time prophecies. Things like the wolf shall dwell with the lamb and a little child shall lead them. Those extra puzzle pieces had to go somewhere. Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven doesn't sound like all that bad of a thing.
 
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Berean777

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I do not insist on anything, I am stating what thee bible says. Adam and Eve are the only ones that God formed individually from dirt (,and a rib)---Everyone else has come from Adam and Eve. The heavenly body merely means that it is the remade physical body---it is no longer imperfect, it will no longer be maimed or diseased, the brain will have it's full potential available to us. Every part will be absolutely perfect as God intended. Christ's body after the resurrection was still fully human--- but it was a heavenly body, remade and glorified.
(Luk 24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

It's good enough for Chris, I'll take it, too!

Yes but the Lord's resurrection body went through walls defying time and space. He showed he was not a spirit and had flesh and bone and sat down to eat broiled fish, but that heavenly body doesn't require sustenance or the Garden of Eden fruits to sustain this body. Jesus was doing this to prove that he was not a spirit, not that he needed to eat to sustain his body.
 
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Dave Watchman

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Dave,

You are changing a simultaneous resurrection foretold by Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John into two separate resurrections separated by 1,000 years, by changing the word "hour" to "hours".
A 1,000 year hour is a long one.

What? How can I change a simultaneous resurrection? Now I'm the bad guy?<--No Way.

"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
Is it possible that the resurrection only sounded "simultaneous" until Revelation 20 came along and provided for some added detail?
Is it also possible that even with the added detail that we now have, there could still be some belief systems who can't let go of their long held doctrines?
You have also changed the "last day" in the resurrection of John chapter 6 to 1,000 years before the last day.
Jesus did not day in the last "days".


Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It depends on how you define "last day". "Last day" of our lives, "last day" of the tribulation, "last day" of 6000 years of sin or the "last day" of the 1000 years of Rev. 20

I don't think that it's too far out to consider that Daniel, John, Paul and even Jesus himself did not know, prior to the Revelation, the detail of separate resurrections separated by 1000 years.
I've always thought that our resurrection would be on the "last day" of the end time tribulation at the start of the 1000 years.

Another problem is we know wicked angels are presently bound.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Present tense
Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Present tense

The beast comes out of the bottomless pit. Therefore he must be there now. Present tense

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



I don't see the problem, do you see a problem? I agree that they are presently in the abyss but will be released soon enough about half way through our end time tribulation:

"And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth."

"They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon"

You also have Jesus defeating the forces of Satan at the battle of Armageddon so that Satan can be bound and then released 1,000 years later, so that Christ can defeat the forces of Satan again.

Yep, that's how it's looking to me. Lucifer is defeated, the wicked are killed by a command from the Rider on the white horse and the birds eat them up for 1000 years. Lucifer will have 1000 years to think about things then God comes back and annihilates him, his demons and all the human wicked.

That Holy city you are referring to is the New Jerusalem, which is now above and comes in with the New Heavens and the New Earth at Christ's Second Coming. This fallen world will be burned up at that point.

The main reason I see where this can't work is that the wicked are not destroyed until after the 1000 years at the "second death". Don't forget this detail: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
At the Second Coming the wicked will only be killed, not annihilated. And we go to New Jerusalem, the Father's house, 1000 years before Jesus brings the whole City back with us in it. That's when the "rest of the dead" are resurrected, judged at the White Throne and then annihilated. That process will in all likelihood result in the earth being destroyed and then requiring re-creation by the Lord: “Behold, I am making all things new.”

This verse from Job clearly states that the resurrection occurs when the heavens be no more.

Job_14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.



The following occur in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
The end of the passage sounds much like the Garden of Eden.



Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. The present earth will no longer be remembered, because it will be burned up. (2nd Pet. 3:10)



Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. The New Jerusalem, which is now above


Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.


Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

I have a theory on why the Old Testament end time prophecies don't mix with the story from Daniel and Revelation. I believe that the detail of Revelation has superseded some of the Old Testament detail. I don't think that we're going to see an infant stick his hand into a viper den or that we'll ever have to burn weapons for seven years.

The 1,000 year carnal kingdom creates tremendous conflict in the text, that must be ignored to get it to work.

I shouldn't say it because I know that it's upsetting for some but I ignore the "carnal kingdom" too. I know that the "carnal kingdom" is a frustration for many of the more intelligent Christians. There does seem to be tremendous conflict built into the text so I understand why the old school Hal Lindsey style guys had to assume that "the leopard will lie down with the baby goat and a little child shall lead them" during the "carnal kingdom". The tremendous conflict in the text is probably just our human brains not being able to understand a Book written by God.

I believe that Revelation 20 is for real because Jesus said so and we shall reign with him a thousand years. The 1000 years is mentioned 6 times but I wonder why God wanted us to know about it now. He could have waited and told us about it in person on the last day.
I'm afraid that the 1000 years is going to be taken up with the thing Paul was talking about:

"Do you not know that we will judge angels"

And the thing Jesus was talking about:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes"

After the 1000 years when fire annihilates the wicked, I don't think they'll all be destroyed instantly.
 
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