word of faith?

_Jordan_ · Jul 31, 2015

I have two Christian friends, which only recently I discovered and confronted their beliefs. You could call them standard word of faith and prosperity believers; here are some of their views

- God wants us to be prosperous in this life (health, wealth, relationships etc)
- If we don't receive we don't have enough faith (faith is a like a force)
- we are little gods; we have creative power to speak things into reality (i.e think positively and that thing will come to pass - often related to success) (name it, claim it)
- The are multiple other niches of questionable theology they believe but these are the main ones

After confronting these beliefs as well as some of the huge mega-church pastors who preach these teachings/ they listen to, without any evaluation they both agreed that I'm mislead and they would convenience me or God would eventually. I can honestly say I have evaluated this doctrine (even before talking to my friends) and I'm still not convinced. I will accept there is a possibility that this is correct doctrine and i'm being extremely stubborn/close minded(only based on the fact that i am a finite being and not all knowing) however After everything I've seen, I highly doubt it's the teaching of the bible. I really did challenge them to look into the possibility of them being wrong and i would look more into their beliefs as well. Trust me I have looked into this a lot and I'm interested to heard what other people think, am I too stubborn/close minded? or are my friends in error. In this light:

Is word of faith and prosperity teaching biblical?

and how should I approach my friends about it considering it isn't? (with great respect for them, they are very stubborn; previous conversations simply go nowhere)

Cappadocious · Jul 31, 2015

It's anti-Christian. As for how to approach your friends about it, there is no hard and fast rule or apologetic hook that convinces people. Convincing people or responding properly to them isn't something you can formalize, despite what Romans Road sectarians would have you believe.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 31, 2015

This is a bit of irony, perhaps, but I saw this in response to a very common catch-phrase. Simply, look at what happened through the early centuries of Christianity - and indeed, what Christians are enduring in other parts of the world today for their testimony to Christ.

This isn't swimming pools and personal jets and expensive vacations ...

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 31, 2015

No, it is not Biblical, it is self serving, self centered.

Tigger45 · Jul 31, 2015

This cracked me up

RC1970 · Jul 31, 2015

The Bible tells us (on every other page) that as Christians we are likely to suffer in this world.

"Let The Good Times Roll" is a song by the Cars, it's not in the Bible.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 31, 2015

Tigger45 said:
This cracked me up

I love the guys from Lutheran Satire, they are always on the mark!

MoreCoffee · Aug 4, 2015

_Jordan_ said:
I have two Christian friends, which only recently I discovered and confronted their beliefs. You could call them standard word of faith and prosperity believers; here are some of their views

- God wants us to be prosperous in this life (health, wealth, relationships etc)
- If we don't receive we don't have enough faith (faith is a like a force)
- we are little gods; we have creative power to speak things into reality (i.e think positively and that thing will come to pass - often related to success) (name it, claim it)
- The are multiple other niches of questionable theology they believe but these are the main ones

After confronting these beliefs as well as some of the huge mega-church pastors who preach these teachings/ they listen to, without any evaluation they both agreed that I'm mislead and they would convenience me or God would eventually. I can honestly say I have evaluated this doctrine (even before talking to my friends) and I'm still not convinced. I will accept there is a possibility that this is correct doctrine and i'm being extremely stubborn/close minded(only based on the fact that i am a finite being and not all knowing) however After everything I've seen, I highly doubt it's the teaching of the bible. I really did challenge them to look into the possibility of them being wrong and i would look more into their beliefs as well. Trust me I have looked into this a lot and I'm interested to heard what other people think, am I too stubborn/close minded? or are my friends in error. In this light:

Is word of faith and prosperity teaching biblical?

and how should I approach my friends about it considering it isn't? (with great respect for them, they are very stubborn; previous conversations simply go nowhere)

Next time one of them has a cold, or a flu, or an injury ask them why they have it if healing and such are all part of the atonement and if God wants them to be healthy as well as wealthy. If they say it was lack of faith then take note and the next time it happens ask again ... reality is a good antidote to the stupidity of these Doctrines.

~Anastasia~ · Aug 4, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Next time one of them has a cold, or a flu, or an injury ask them why they have it if healing and such are all part of the atonement and if God wants them to be healthy as well as wealthy. If they say it was lack of faith then take note and the next time it happens ask again ... reality is a good antidote to the stupidity of these Doctrines.

Good point.

But I mostly wanted to say - it's great to see you, MC!

Merlin · Aug 4, 2015

Does it always work?
Or just sometimes?
Does it ever work?
Was Abraham rich? Did he own thousands of square miles of land (Israel)
What about Isaac or Jacob
What about king David
It is not a sin to be rich
Neither is it a sin to be healthy

Cappadocious · Aug 4, 2015

Merlin said:
It is not a sin to be rich

It is when one's brother goes without.

Dialogist · Aug 4, 2015

_Jordan_ said:
I have two Christian friends, which only recently I discovered and confronted their beliefs. You could call them standard word of faith and prosperity believers; here are some of their views

- God wants us to be prosperous in this life (health, wealth, relationships etc)
- If we don't receive we don't have enough faith (faith is a like a force)
- we are little gods; we have creative power to speak things into reality (i.e think positively and that thing will come to pass - often related to success) (name it, claim it)
- The are multiple other niches of questionable theology they believe but these are the main ones

After confronting these beliefs as well as some of the huge mega-church pastors who preach these teachings/ they listen to, without any evaluation they both agreed that I'm mislead and they would convenience me or God would eventually. I can honestly say I have evaluated this doctrine (even before talking to my friends) and I'm still not convinced. I will accept there is a possibility that this is correct doctrine and i'm being extremely stubborn/close minded(only based on the fact that i am a finite being and not all knowing) however After everything I've seen, I highly doubt it's the teaching of the bible. I really did challenge them to look into the possibility of them being wrong and i would look more into their beliefs as well. Trust me I have looked into this a lot and I'm interested to heard what other people think, am I too stubborn/close minded? or are my friends in error. In this light:

Is word of faith and prosperity teaching biblical?

and how should I approach my friends about it considering it isn't? (with great respect for them, they are very stubborn; previous conversations simply go nowhere)

What Biblical support are THEY claiming for their beliefs?

To my mind, #3 sounds like something Dwayne Dyer could have written, who inherited most of his beliefs from Helen Blavatsky, an occultist who founded something called the Theosophical Society in America, whose aims, according to its charter, included "the investigation of the unexplained laws of nature and the psychic powers latent in man."

I have absolutely no doubt that the followers of the prosperity cult do, in fact, achieve their aims (i.e. material success) and fully attribute their success to God. But that's probably not where it comes from.

Merlin · Aug 4, 2015

Cappadocious said:
It is when one's brother goes without.

But how can u help him unless you have something to give?

Was Abraham a sinner because God prospered him?
Is it ever a sin if God provides you with his riches?

Was Jesus wrong when he said
Luk 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

MoreCoffee · Aug 4, 2015

Kylissa said:
Good point.

But I mostly wanted to say - it's great to see you, MC!

Thanks dear Kylissa

I've been here all along, mostly in the chat box ...

MoreCoffee · Aug 4, 2015

Merlin said:
Does it always work?
Or just sometimes?
Does it ever work?
Was Abraham rich? Did he own thousands of square miles of land (Israel)
What about Isaac or Jacob
What about king David
It is not a sin to be rich
Neither is it a sin to be healthy

Does God always keep his promises? Yes, he does. So obviously name it and claim it is not a promise God ever made.

Does name-it-and-claim-it ever work? No, not even once, but sometimes sheer stupid coincidence makes a fool believe it does. It's like magic and voodoo seem to work to foolish folk who believe such things.

Was Jesus born in a palace? Did he have great wealth in worldly goods? No to both. God came into this world the son of a poor woman whose husband was also poor even though he descended from David.

Was saint Peter or saint Paul rich in this world goods? No neither was. Yet they are both great heroes of the faith.

It's not a sin to be poor. And poverty, injury, ill health, and persecution are not due to lack of faith which is one of many infallible proofs that name-it-and-claim-it theology is in error, it is a lie. Beware of it.

~Anastasia~ · Aug 4, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Thanks dear Kylissa

I've been here all along, mostly in the chat box ...

That explains why I didn't know ... I usually just load "alerts" and only go to the forums I follow. Limited time so I never see the main page anymore. I'll try to drop by.

Cappadocious · Aug 4, 2015

Merlin said:
But how can u help him unless you have something to give?

By giving what you have once you have it, of course.

Merlin said:
Was Abraham a sinner because God prospered him?

Abraham was not given the fullness of the truth, otherwise he would have known of the Crucified Christ.

Merlin said:
Is it ever a sin if God provides you with his riches?

It is a sin to hoard them for oneself, or treat them as belonging to oneself ultimately.

Merlin said:
Was Jesus wrong when he said
Luk 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

The return need not be of the same kind as the gift; and good thing, for if it were we would perish.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 4, 2015

Merlin said:
But how can u help him unless you have something to give?

Was Abraham a sinner because God prospered him?
Is it ever a sin if God provides you with his riches?

Was Jesus wrong when he said
Luk 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

The sin is not in being prosperous, or in being generous; it is a sin when we expect a temporal reward in return for our faith.

It seem to me that the prosperity gospel of WoF and the Theology of Glory are very closely related.

One of the most faithful proponents of the Prosperity Gospel was Schuller. Where is the Crystal Cathedral today; it is now a Catholic Church. Where are all of his followers? Who knows?

God can give me what I need (always more than I deserve); and we all do what we can. These are a given for all the faithful.

Dialogist · Aug 4, 2015

Merlin said:
Was Jesus wrong when he said
Luk 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

You are taking this verse out of context. It has nothing to do with material welfare. It refers back to the Lord's admonition, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not and ye shall not be condemned; forgive, and ye shall be forgiven (v.37). The meaning of For with the same measure by which ye measure it shall be measured to you again is that you will be judged to the extent that you judged, condemned to the extent that you condemned, forgiven to the extent that you forgave.

Gnarwhal · Aug 4, 2015

I'm glad there's a consensus here (at least going by the poll there is, I skimmed the thread itself). My perspective on the prosperity gospel is that it reduces the essence of the gospel to a get-rich-quick scheme. You want to climb out of that housing project you're living in and buy an oversized track home in that new neighborhood? Just obey Jesus and give all of your disposable income to 'my' church!

It's an entire repackaging of the Christian faith into a marketable commodity that encourages growth and an increased revenue steam, but it's not the gospel. It's a different god, a different salvation, a different religion.

word of faith?

Is the prosperity/ word of faith movement biblical?

yes

no

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