If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfeclty?

SAAN said:

We do obey much of the Torah that still applies. We may not be perfect at it, but that is where grace comes in when we mess up.

There is no where in the entire bible that says, since you cant keep the commandments perfectly, dont bother to try at all. As long as you are not trying to get saved and gain salvation soley from commandment keeping and ignoring the sacrifice of Jesus, we are still required to keep the commandments that apply to us t the best of our abilities.

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Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

disciple1 said:

YOU DON'T OBEY THE LAW YOUR A SINNER THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE, SO WHY DO YOU PREACH SOMETHING YOU DON'T OBEY, .

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Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

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12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
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20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul says in 1Cor 6 - "Be not deceived"

7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I can keep going along this line in the NT - but it only gets worse for anyone opposed to the Law of God.

BobRyan said:

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

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I thought I already gave it to you here it is again.
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388908, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[/QUOTE]

disciple1 said:

I thought I already gave it to you here it is again.

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I you would like me to quote Romans 8 again - I am happy to do it.

As I pointed out with Romans 3 - and in Gal 3 - the purpose of the Law for the lost - is to show that the Law of God still exists, is still binding... it still defines sin - it still shows that the lost need to accept salvation.


Here it is from Gal 3 -
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

But Gal 3 makes it even more clear here - The LAW of God -- IS scripture AND it shuts up ALL - EVERYONE "under sin" -- as Romans 3 points out - it defines what sin IS.

BEFORE faith -- comes all you have is the law to tell you that you are bound for the second death - and need salvation.
That is not the purpose of the law AFTER you are saved.

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

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all of this was already pointed out to us here -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68387718, member: 235244"]
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


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SAAN said:

Psalm 19:7(NKJV)
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;


Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

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This is probably an obscure point, but there seems also to be some ambiguity in how the KJV (and NKJV) translates Psalm 19:7.

If you have access to a copy of the KJV with the original footnotes, you will see that the translators provided "doctrine" as an alternative translation for "law". The Jewish scholars that translated the Jewish Publication Society Tanakh translate the Psalm:


Perhaps the confusion arose because the Apostles used one word - nomos - to refer to law and another word - didache - to refer to teaching. At the time that the Greek Septuagint was written, some 200 years before the New Testament, the word nomos was used to signify both "law" and "teaching" and didache was very rare (For example, didache appears 29 times in the New Testament, but only once in the Old Testament).

In any case, the two verses are probably referring to two different things.

SAAN said:

We do obey much of the Torah that still applies. We may not be perfect at it, but that is where grace comes in when we mess up.

There is no where in the entire bible that says, since you cant keep the commandments perfectly, dont bother to try at all. As long as you are not trying to get saved and gain salvation soley from commandment keeping and ignoring the sacrifice of Jesus, we are still required to keep the commandments that apply to us t the best of our abilities.

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There is no such thing as "keeping the Law imperfectly". Imperfection, by definition, negates any claim to "keeping".

SAAN said:

I no where said we rely on the law for salvation and my post made it pretty clear our salvation comes through Jesus only, but part of salvation is repentance and turning from your ways and the only way to turn from your sinful ways is to keep the commandments of God. We may not be perfect at doing it, but that is where grace covers us.

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However true the bold is I don't believe you understand the commandment of God to place faith and your entire life in the hands of the Spirit of God that dwells within you.

I am noticing that those who promote observance to Torah commands as the goal of Messiah's message continue to make this glaring contradiction in their posts. And I'm beginning to realize that they probably are not or can not see it. But it's always there, and it's probably what continues others to counter against their message.

SAAN, you said you never rely on the law for salvation; then in the same breath to explain this you say "but part of salvation is" "to keep the commandments of God, i.e. the law. You just spoke out of both sides of your mouth! You don't rely on the law for salvation; but the only way to repent is to keep the law. Keeping the law is part of salvation. THAT is really what you just communicated, as you attempted to proclaim the opposite. I would suggest not doing this if you want others to not only understand but accept your posts. You're saying No I Can, or Yes I can't!

SAAN said:

Jesus himself said to keep the commandments, if you dont agree, you reject the teaching of Christ.

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Actually he said "My commands" and 'My Words'. He never said he came to teach others to keep the law given Moses like Jews/Israel. To claim that is to twist Messiah's teachings.

SAAN said:

Jesus himself said to keep the commandments, if you dont agree, you reject the teaching of Christ.

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It is you who admits to not keeping the commandments. You fail.

In trying to keep the Law one sets themselves up making it the standard of their righteousness and it is a dead end because nobody but God can keep the Law. The only alternative is to trust God's own keeping the of Law and dwell in his righteousness and not consider the Law as a standard of such because in doing so you are REPLACING Jesus with the Law, a perfect righteousness with a failed attempt at righteousness.

Sophrosyne said:

In trying to keep the Law one sets themselves up making it the standard of their righteousness and it is a dead end because nobody but God can keep the Law. The only alternative is to trust God's own keeping the of Law and dwell in his righteousness and not consider the Law as a standard of such because in doing so you are REPLACING Jesus with the Law, a perfect righteousness with a failed attempt at righteousness.

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Yet, it really doesn't seem like you understand Jesus or the law because you continue to identify them as opposed to each other. Jesus, king of the Jews, king of Israel, the Holy One of Israel, the redeemer of Jacob...he came to 'do away' with all that he identified with before? I do not recognize this Jesus you speak of. I do not find him in the (Jewish) Scriptures nor do I find him in the writing of the Jewish apostles. Those who said "look we found the Messiah, the one the Torah and the prophets wrote about!!", did not teach that his coming REPLACED all that has come before. With Christianity no less......

ErezY said:

Actually he said "My commands" and 'My Words'. He never said he came to teach others to keep the law given Moses like Jews/Israel. To claim that is to twist Messiah's teachings.

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Jesus made it clear He was NEVER speaking His own words. He said HIS words were HIS FATHER'S WORDS. The law given to Moses is God's words. The words given to Jesus are likewise God's words.

IOW, when Jesus says keep my commandments He's talking about the words of God.

See what Jesus says about the law in Matthew 5:17-19. I think Jesus' words trump anyone else's words.

IOW, Paul's words need to be interpreted IN LINE WITH Jesus' words, not against.

IF an interpretation disagrees with Jesus' words, the interpretation is wrong.

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." - John 12:49

"Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." - John 5:19

"Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." - John 8:28

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19