The Trinity

Der Alte · Jul 30, 2015

justlookinla said:
Where in Phil 2:9-11 did God exalt Jesus to the status of God? Please post the passage.

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article

justlookinla · Jul 30, 2015

Der Alter said:
Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

I agree. His form here on earth was not His form pre-incarnate.

I have trouble responding to a wall of text but will be glad to take smaller steps in discussion. Trying to respond to too much information gets unwieldy.

Der Alte · Jul 30, 2015

justlookinla said:
I agree. His form here on earth was not His form pre-incarnate.

I have trouble responding to a wall of text but will be glad to take smaller steps in discussion. Trying to respond to too much information gets unwieldy.

That is a common excuse for avoiding a discussion. When you read the Bible do you just read a few out-of-context proof texts and decide what the chapter or section means? I don't! I read it from beginning to end then I refer back to preceding verses to have a more complete understanding what the author intended. Now in the passage I quoted above you formulated a response to vs. 9 while essentially ignoring vss. 6-8. It is impossible to have a full understanding of vs. 9 without knowing/understanding what Paul said in the preceding and following vss. Here is how the, native Greek speaking, early church, interpreted Philip 2:6-11, and put it into practice.

Clement of Alexandria-- Exhortation to the Heathen [153 - 217 AD]

Thus also the apostle of the Lord, beseeching the Macedonians, . . .But are ye so devoid of fear, or rather of faith, as not to believe the Lord Himself, or Paul, who in Christ's stead thus entreats: "Taste and see that Christ is God?

He says to those that have newly abandoned wickedness, "He pities them, and fills them with righteousness." Believe Him who is man and God[/u]; believe, O man. Believe, O man, the living God, who suffered and is adored. Believe, ye slaves, Him who died; believe, all ye of human kind, Him who alone is God of all men.

. . .who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Saviour, the clement, the Divine Word , He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, . . .assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, . . .

But if thou dost not believe the prophets, but supposest both the men and the fire a myth, the Lord Himself shall speak to thee, "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Himself,"[1]-- "He, the merciful God, exerting Himself to save man." And now the Word Himself clearly speaks to thee, Shaming thy unbelief; yea, I say, the Word of God became man, . . .

Fragments Of Clemens Alexandrinus 1

From The Latin Translation Of Cassiodorus.

3. — Comments On The First Epistle Of John.

Chapter 1:1.

What therefore he says, “from the beginning,” the Presbyter explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, “That which was from the beginning,” he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, “In the beginning was the Word.” But by the expression, “we have seen with our eyes,” he signifies the Lord’s presence in the flesh, “and our hands have handled,” he says, “of the Word of life.”

Tertullian -- Against Praxeas [145-220 AD]

Chap. Vii.--The Son By Being Designated Word And Wisdom, (According To The Imperfection Of Human Thought And Language) Liable To Be Deemed A Mere Attribute. He Is Shown To Be A Personal Being.

Is that Word of God, then, a void and empty thing, which is called the Son, who Himself is designated God? "The Word was with God, and the Word was God."[9] It is written, " Thou shalt not take God's name in vain."[10] This for certain is He "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."[11] . . . Now, even if invisible things, whatsoever they be, have both their substance and their form in God, whereby they are visible to God alone, how much more shall that which has been sent forth from His [God’s] substance not be without substance!

Tertullian -- Against Marcion, Bk V [145-220 AD]

But since he is truly God,, as the Son of the Father, in His fashion and image, He has been already by the force of this conclusion determined to be truly man, as the Son of man, " found in the fashion "and image" of a man ." . . . Therefore, as He was found to be God by His mighty power, so was He found to be man by reason of His flesh, because the apostle could not have pronounced Him to have "become obedient unto death,"(4) if He had not been constituted of a mortal substance. Still more plainly does this appear from the apostle's additional words, "even the death of the cross., "(5).

A Treatise of Novatian -- Concerning the Trinity.– [210-280. AD]

Chapter XXI.165 Argument.-That the Same Divine Majesty is Again Confirmed in Christ by Other Scriptures.

. . . He is the Word who is from the Father, who is with the Father, "by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made; "168 the imitator169 of His Father's works and powers, "the image of the invisible God; "170 "who came down from heaven; "171 . . . He might unfold to us the laws of the heavenly mysteries; and who as the Word made flesh dwelt among us, of us this Christ is proved to be not man only, because He was the son of man, but also God, because He is the Son of God?

. . . He is revealed as a man, even as from the authority of the Word who washed it He is manifested to be God.

Novatian -- Chap. XXII.(3) Argument--That The Same Divine Majesty Is In Christ, He Once More Asserts By Other Scriptures.

But why, although we appear to hasten to another branch of the argument, should we pass over that passage in the apostle: " Who, although He was in the form of God, did not think it robbery that He should be equal with God; but emptied Himself, taking up the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore also God hath highly exalted Him, and hath given Him a name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bent, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, in the glory of God the Father?"(4) "Who, although He was in the form of God ,"he says. If Christ had been only man, He would have been spoken of as in "the image" of God, not "in the form" of God. . . . "He is--as we have declared--in the form of God the Father. “”And He is reasonably affirmed to be in the form of God, in that He Himself, being above all things, and having the divine power over every creature, is also God after the example of the Father" . Yet He obtained, this from His own Father, that "He should be both God of all and should be Lord, and be begotten and made known from Himself as God in the form of God the Father. He then, although He was in the form of God, thought it not robbery that He should be equal with God" . For although He remembered that "He was God from God the Father" ,
[…]
For He has "received a name which is above every name," which assuredly we understand to be none other than the name of God. For since it belongs to God alone to be above all things, it follows that the name which is that God's who is above all things, is above every name; which name by consequence is certainly His who, although "He was "in the form of God, thought it not robbery for Him to be equal with God." For neither, if Christ were not God, would every knee bend itself in His name, "of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;" nor would things visible and invisible, even every creature of all things, be subjected or be placed under man, when they might remember that they were before man". Whence, since Christ is said to be in the form of God, and since it is shown that for His nativity according to the flesh He emptied Himself;. and since it is declared that He received from the Father that name which is above every name; and since it is shown that in His name "every knee of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, bend and bow" themselves; and this very thing is asserted to be a furtherance of the glory of God the Father; consequently He is not man only, from the fact that He became obedient to the Father, even to death, yea, the death of the cross;. but, moreover, from the proclamation by these higher matters of the divinity of Christ, Christ Jesus is shown to be Lord and God, which the heretics will not have.

Novatian -- Testimonies

Also Paul to the Philippians: "Who, being appointed in the figure of God, thought it not robbery that He was equal with God; but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, He was made in the likeness of man, and was found in fashion as a man. He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and the death of the cross. For which cause also God hath exalted Him, and hath given Him a name, that it may be above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowed, of things heavenly, and earthly, and infernal; and that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in glory of God the Father."(6)

7xlightray · Jul 30, 2015

razzelflabben said:
.

I know you were speaking of spiritual death, but there was a sentence in there which sounded like Jesus Spirit did not die, because otherwise it would have been contradictory when you said “nor could He die in the spirit,” and then saying “He would have been able to die spiritual,” but now that you cleared it up, I guess it was contradictory. Either you are able to die spiritually, or your not, can't be both.

7xlightray · Jul 30, 2015

razzelflabben said:
and yet, the grave could not hold Him, nor His body....iow's the flesh died but didn't stay dead because as you said, God cannot die. You see, Jesus didn't stay dead, He rose from the grave, which is in and of itself a testimony to the truth of Jesus deity, but I digress, one point at a time. Jesus flesh died, then was raised, why? Because death couldn't hold Him, why not? Because He was God in the flesh.

Your missing the fact that Jesus raised from the dead...that fact changes everything you are trying to claim right off the bat

Are you trying to tell me, because Jesus did not stay dead, that this means he was immortal?
I guess those that are changed in a twinkling of an eye, are more immortal then God, because if they do die, it's in a twinkling of an eye.

If that's what you are trying to tell me ...No ...no! You could not be trying to convince me of this, I must be reading it wrong.

Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

That passage says this is when he became immortal, raised from the dead, no more to return to corruption. That is becoming immortal!

7xlightray · Jul 30, 2015

As for his spiritual death, or soul death. This passage...

Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

...we know this speaks of Jesus, and is from Isaiah 55:3...

Isaiah 55
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

“and your soul shall live,” what does it mean, but that his soul also died, as to Paul's point, that he will no more return to corruption. So, did his soul die, or did he die spiritually?

I'll just throw in a few more verses.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God [Father], and for the Holy One of Israel [Father is the Holy One, and this why the angels said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest (Father. The Holy Ghost is the power of the Father) shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”]; for he hath glorified thee [this speaks of the glory Jesus had with the Father before the foundation of the world, but would not receive this glory until he was raised from the dead].

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

Der Alter said:
That is a common excuse for avoiding a discussion. When you read the Bible do you just read a few out-of-context proof texts and decide what the chapter or section means? I don't! I read it from beginning to end then I refer back to preceding verses to have a more complete understanding what the author intended.

I find that posting a wall of text is a common excuse for avoiding a discussion. When I discuss issues, I take it one piece at a time least something is missed or misunderstood. I can post a wall of text for my position if I so choose, but the response will be an even bigger wall of text and the discussion quickly deteriorates and nothing is gained in understanding by either party.

I'm not going to do the wall of text type discussion. If you wish to discuss the issue scripture by scripture, piece by piece, I look forward to it. If not, we're not going to be able to continue.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

7xlightray said:
I know you were speaking of spiritual death, but there was a sentence in there which sounded like Jesus Spirit did not die, because otherwise it would have been contradictory when you said “nor could He die in the spirit,” and then saying “He would have been able to die spiritual,” but now that you cleared it up, I guess it was contradictory. Either you are able to die spiritually, or your not, can't be both.

sure it can, I am able to die spiritual, but I won't therefore it is impossible because I have believed unto salvation and nothing, not even death can separate me from my Lord and King. So, where it is possible for me to die spiritually, it is impossible for me while I am in Christ and HE is in me.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

7xlightray said:
Are you trying to tell me, because Jesus did not stay dead, that this means he was immortal?
I guess those that are changed in a twinkling of an eye, are more immortal then God, because if they do die, it's in a twinkling of an eye.

I guess I can see how you can twist that into what you are claiming here, most twisting of this kind I struggle to even follow how one got there, but if I try really hard, I guess I can see where you would be able to twist it that hard.

What I am saying is that JEsus didn't die in the spiritual since, thus being consistent with being God in the flesh. As to His physical death, that to was addressed by the inability of Satan to hold Him. You see, according to scripture (I think this is where I am failing to understand how some things are being twisted, cause I assume people know scripture, assuming might be a bad idea) Satan can hold us in the grave, or in physical death without the power of God. So, if Jesus flesh was not able to be held by Satan it was because of a supernatural not a natural power at work within Him, thus again, evidence of His deity as well as His human nature....fully man and fully God.

If that's what you are trying to tell me ...No ...no! You could not be trying to convince me of this, I must be reading it wrong.

Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

That passage says this is when he became immortal, raised from the dead, no more to return to corruption. That is becoming immortal!

see above, your trying to prove that Jesus couldn't be God by showing that HE could be.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

7xlightray said:
As for his spiritual death, or soul death. This passage...

Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

...we know this speaks of Jesus, and is from Isaiah 55:3...

Isaiah 55
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

“and your soul shall live,” what does it mean, but that his soul also died, as to Paul's point, that he will no more return to corruption. So, did his soul die, or did he die spiritually?

I'll just throw in a few more verses.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God [Father], and for the Holy One of Israel [Father is the Holy One, and this why the angels said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest (Father. The Holy Ghost is the power of the Father) shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”]; for he hath glorified thee [this speaks of the glory Jesus had with the Father before the foundation of the world, but would not receive this glory until he was raised from the dead].

It is a common spiritual understanding that for 3 days, Jesus was in hell....but as I previously said, where hell/satan could hold a mere man, he/it could not hold a deity. So, your claim here that Jesus couldn't be God is evidenced by you to be that Jesus could in fact and probably from this evidence alone be God.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

justlookinla said:
I find that posting a wall of text is a common excuse for avoiding a discussion. When I discuss issues, I take it one piece at a time least something is missed or misunderstood. I can post a wall of text for my position if I so choose, but the response will be an even bigger wall of text and the discussion quickly deteriorates and nothing is gained in understanding by either party.

I'm not going to do the wall of text type discussion. If you wish to discuss the issue scripture by scripture, piece by piece, I look forward to it. If not, we're not going to be able to continue.

So why then do you refuse to answer my question about your interpretation of Philippians 2? Scripture tells us NOT to worship anyone or anything but God alone, yet here, God anoints Jesus to position of being worshiped, why? Why would He command us not to worship anyone but Him then turn around and anoint a non god, exalting Him to position of being worshiped by all of us?

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

Dup Post

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

razzelflabben said:
So why then do you refuse to answer my question about your interpretation of Philippians 2? Scripture tells us NOT to worship anyone or anything but God alone, yet here, God anoints Jesus to position of being worshiped, why? Why would He command us not to worship anyone but Him then turn around and anoint a non god, exalting Him to position of being worshiped by all of us?

I've answered your question over and over.

Once more.

Jesus' God doesn't command the angels, or anyone else, to worship Jesus as God. Nothing in the passage about Jesus' God commanding anyone to worship Jesus as God.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

justlookinla said:
I've answered your question over and over.

Once more.

Jesus' God doesn't command the angels, or anyone else, to worship Jesus as God. Nothing in the passage about Jesus' God commanding anyone to worship Jesus as God.

so, you really want us to believe that when it says "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" that this is only a suggestion, that the will there doesn't really mean will as in it will happen but rather it means that if we want to we can but if we don't want to we don't have to? Will bow, kanpto meaning

to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
1. to one
  1. in honour of one
  2. in religious veneration
2. used of worshippers
to bow one's self

I am totally stunned that you don't know that every knee will bow is a command that everyone will worship Jesus....and thus, the question remains unanswered....so apparently you cannot answer the question of why we are commanded in scripture to not worship other gods but here God exalts Jesus to position of deity, position of being worshiped.

OKAY, So last night, I thought maybe it was time to let you off the hook and just assume that you couldn't answer the question but were just too prideful to acknowledge that little fact that even in this one passage alone, your interpretation is not consistent with the totality of scripture thus not from God in that scripture says that God is always 100% right 100% of the time.

So, since you have already proven your interpretation false, let's talk about the question you asked of my interpretation...did God anoint God to be worshiped as deity....yes and no...You see, in fleshly form, Jesus did not consider Himself equal to God....iow's Jesus when He accepted the flesh that He wore on this earth, accepted it with it's limitations and temptations and thus, He knew that humility was vital to remaining without sin, a humility so complete that He wouldn't even accept equality with "Himself" that is to say the Godhead, something to be grasped. But after He fulfilled the law, God as in the Godhead exalted the God in flesh to equality, kind of like a coming together....or returning to most vulnerable part of Himself to Himself and in that, showing the world that He was in fact both Jesus and the Father but only One God. It really is a simple concept but only one the spirit can understand.

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

razzelflabben said:
so, you really want us to believe that when it says "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" that this is only a suggestion, that the will there doesn't really mean will as in it will happen but rather it means that if we want to we can but if we don't want to we don't have to? Will bow, kanpto meaning

to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)

to one

in honour of one

in religious veneration

used of worshippers

to bow one's self

I am totally stunned that you don't know that every knee will bow is a command that everyone will worship Jesus....and thus, the question remains unanswered....so apparently you cannot answer the question of why we are commanded in scripture to not worship other gods but here God exalts Jesus to position of deity, position of being worshiped.

No, God does not exalt Jesus to position of God....nothing in the scripture indicates that Jesus' God (God the Father) exalting Jesus makes Him God.

OKAY, So last night, I thought maybe it was time to let you off the hook and just assume that you couldn't answer the question but were just too prideful to acknowledge that little fact that even in this one passage alone, your interpretation is not consistent with the totality of scripture thus not from God in that scripture says that God is always 100% right 100% of the time.

I've repeatedly answered the question. I've answered it again and I suspect you'll ask the question yet again. And I'll give the same answer.

So, since you have already proven your interpretation false,

Not at all. You've not given scripture where Jesus' God (God the Father) exalting him makes Jesus God.

let's talk about the question you asked of my interpretation...did God anoint God to be worshiped as deity....yes and no...You see, in fleshly form, Jesus did not consider Himself equal to God....iow's Jesus when He accepted the flesh that He wore on this earth, accepted it with it's limitations and temptations and thus, He knew that humility was vital to remaining without sin, a humility so complete that He wouldn't even accept equality with "Himself" that is to say the Godhead, something to be grasped. But after He fulfilled the law, God as in the Godhead exalted the God in flesh to equality, kind of like a coming together....or returning to most vulnerable part of Himself to Himself and in that, showing the world that He was in fact both Jesus and the Father but only One God. It really is a simple concept but only one the spirit can understand.

Wait. You're saying that, yes, God anointed God with an anointing that God didn't have before God anointed God? Are you serious? And Jesus is the Father? Do you have the slightest scripture to support such a view?

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

justlookinla said:
No, God does not exalt Jesus to position of God....nothing in the scripture indicates that Jesus' God (God the Father) exalting Jesus makes Him God.

right, He exalted Him to position of being worshiped, a worship that is reserved for deity alone.

I've repeatedly answered the question. I've answered it again and I suspect you'll ask the question yet again. And I'll give the same answer.

I will keep asking until I either give you grace like I did and assume you can't answer it and are just too proud to admit you can't or until you answer it. All you have done is try to dismiss the question with slight of hands. I get that that is something you have been taught to do, but it does not help your case at all when talking to someone who is willing to think it through and not just believe what is being said.

Not at all. You've not given scripture where Jesus' God (God the Father) exalting him makes Jesus God.

Actually I claimed that God exalted Jesus to position of worship with is a worship reserved for deity, you are postulating the rest because that is how you feel justified to avoid the question.

Wait. You're saying that, yes, God anointed God with an anointing that God didn't have before God anointed God? Are you serious? And Jesus is the Father? Do you have the slightest scripture to support such a view?

That isn't exactly what I said, but you know that, you are just trying to find something to invent so that you think you can make me sound wrong.

So, instead of me falling for your inflammatory remarks, let me give you an example. Let's say that I am owner of a company (I believer there is a show similar to the example I am about to give but since I don't have TV I can't be sure) As the owner and boss, I go to the factory or store I own and run and pretend to be just an ordinary worker. After I find out what I need to know about how the business is operating, I announce that I am the owner of the business. I just did what I am telling you God did in this verse....In this case, I just anointed or exalted myself, who was thought to be just a random employee as owner of the business. I didn't change, but I did reveal to all that change.

what passage do you want? The one about Jesus humbling Himself, the one about Jesus being God in the flesh, or the one about God exalting Him to position of worship reserved for God alone? I think all three have been presented already but I did refer to all three in this explanation, so you just have to tell me which one you want and I'll get it to you.

In fact, if memory serves all three were referenced in scripture in just the last few posts, not presented by me, but presented none the less.

7xlightray · Jul 31, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Isaiah 48:12-17 clearly shows the Lord God speaking of the Lord God and His Spirit sending him.
“the Word was God.” John 1:14 and the Word was made flesh
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

I think I should be able to give understanding to all these from this one passage.

Isaiah 48
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I [Father's living Word that comes out of His mouth, and expresses Him. 1 John 1 would be of help here, and explains John 1] am He [The living Word that became flesh, the son of God. The only way to become a son of God is if He makes you. The Father hid Himself in Christ Isaiah 45:15 and verse 14 saying “Surely God is in thee,” “and the world knew him not John 1:10” this is why when Thomas realized (for he was there with Philip just before his arrest) said, my lord (Jesus) and my God (Father), because he seen the work of God the Father John 14:10-11, by God the Father raising Christ from the dead. God the Father spoke (His Word) in time past in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) His Son)], I am the First, I am also the Last [It's the Fathers Spirit, written Word, the fullness of God, the Law that was written in Jesus, and He took His Spirit that was in His son, and put it in us Numbers 11:17. The Father is the first from Jesus to the last, for it is His Spirit, His Word. And the son's Spirit (which is the Father's Spirit, for there is only one Spirit) is in all the rest Numbers 11:17].

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together [speaking of the Word of God, but God's Word is not a person. His Word became the foundation of the earth, but the earth is not God. And His Word will become flesh, which Adam was not made in this way, Adam was taken from the earth].

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord [Father] loves him [Jesus];
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I [the Word, Spirit, God's power, His wisdom, what God is like, the Father], even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him [Jesus],
I [the Father's Word, Him] have brought [H935 – bo - to come in, come, go in, go] him [Jesus], and his way will prosper [Isaiah 55:11. And the enemy will not deceive, or defile him Psalm 89:22].

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I [Word of Life, that was with God the Father, and is God the Father] was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me [His Word that now became flesh, and will accomplish all that He sent it to do Isaiah 55:11, for it is God the Father leading, and working in him].”

17 Thus says the Lord [Father], your Redeemer [Father, for He was in Christ reconciling the wold to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:19, as also Jesus said it was the Father doing the works in him, as the Father should be doing our works in us, that He planed before the foundation of the world that we should walk in. It also speaks of Christ, for he made him to be sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 and the Father redeemed him from the grave as a kinsman for he knew no sin],
The Holy One of Israel [Father]:
“I am the Lord your God [Father],
Who teaches you [Us, and Jesus] to profit,
Who leads you [Us, and Jesus Isaiah 45:13, Psalm 89:22] by the way you should go.

Isaiah 44 and 45, should aid in understanding, that it is the Father working in Christ, which I've also posted somewhere in this thread.

Once you get this, you will never go back, for not only will you understand Isaiah 14:12-14, and 2 Thessalonians 2, but you will see the love of God like you've never seen it before. God cannot leave heaven, to earth His footstool, and take up residence in a house, never mind a man that lives in the house, nor can the immortal God die. He had to send a son, His Word, that would do His will. Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness 1 Timothy 3:16.

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

razzelflabben said:
right, He exalted Him to position of being worshiped, a worship that is reserved for deity alone.

Nope, there's nothing but your imagination which concludes this. It's not supported by scripture.

I will keep asking until I either give you grace like I did and assume you can't answer it and are just too proud to admit you can't or until you answer it. All you have done is try to dismiss the question with slight of hands. I get that that is something you have been taught to do, but it does not help your case at all when talking to someone who is willing to think it through and not just believe what is being said.

I'll keep answering you.....I'm in noways tired. Ask again and I'll answer again, per scripture.

Actually I claimed that God exalted Jesus to position of worship with is a worship reserved for deity, you are postulating the rest because that is how you feel justified to avoid the question. That isn't exactly what I said, but you know that, you are just trying to find something to invent so that you think you can make me sound wrong.

Yes, I've addressed what you claimed several times now. You've yet to give anything but your personal conclusion unsupported by scripture.

So, instead of me falling for your inflammatory remarks, let me give you an example.

What inflammatory remarks? Give an example. You on the other hand have constantly responded in a condescending manner. Does't matter to me though, I simply keep the issue in focus.

Let's say that I am owner of a company (I believer there is a show similar to the example I am about to give but since I don't have TV I can't be sure) As the owner and boss, I go to the factory or store I own and run and pretend to be just an ordinary worker. After I find out what I need to know about how the business is operating, I announce that I am the owner of the business. I just did what I am telling you God did in this verse....In this case, I just anointed or exalted myself, who was thought to be just a random employee as owner of the business. I didn't change, but I did reveal to all that change.

I ask that you stick with scripture.

what passage do you want? The one about Jesus humbling Himself, the one about Jesus being God in the flesh, or the one about God exalting Him to position of worship reserved for God alone? I think all three have been presented already but I did refer to all three in this explanation, so you just have to tell me which one you want and I'll get it to you.

Let's start with the one about Jesus' God exalting Him to the position of God, Jesus' God anointing Jesus God who did not have the anointing before His God and Father anointed Him.

Scripture supporting that view, please.

In fact, if memory serves all three were referenced in scripture in just the last few posts, not presented by me, but presented none the less.

I haven't found a scripture you've provided which supports such a view.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

7xlightray said:
I think I should be able to give understanding to all these from this one passage.

Isaiah 48
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I [Father's living Word that comes out of His mouth, and expresses Him. 1 John 1 would be of help here, and explains John 1] am He [The living Word that became flesh, the son of God. The only way to become a son of God is if He makes you. The Father hid Himself in Christ Isaiah 45:15 and verse 14 saying “Surely God is in thee,” “and the world knew him not John 1:10” this is why when Thomas realized (for he was there with Philip just before his arrest) said, my lord (Jesus) and my God (Father), because he seen the work of God the Father John 14:10-11, by God the Father raising Christ from the dead. God the Father spoke (His Word) in time past in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) His Son)], I am the First, I am also the Last [It's the Fathers Spirit, written Word, the fullness of God, the Law that was written in Jesus, and He took His Spirit that was in His son, and put it in us Numbers 11:17. The Father is the first from Jesus to the last, for it is His Spirit, His Word. And the son's Spirit (which is the Father's Spirit, for there is only one Spirit) is in all the rest Numbers 11:17].

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together [speaking of the Word of God, but God's Word is not a person. His Word became the foundation of the earth, but the earth is not God. And His Word will become flesh, which Adam was not made in this way, Adam was taken from the earth].

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord [Father] loves him [Jesus];
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I [the Word, Spirit, God's power, His wisdom, what God is like, the Father], even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him [Jesus],
I [the Father's Word, Him] have brought [H935 – bo - to come in, come, go in, go] him [Jesus], and his way will prosper [Isaiah 55:11. And the enemy will not deceive, or defile him Psalm 89:22].

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I [Word of Life, that was with God the Father, and is God the Father] was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me [His Word that now became flesh, and will accomplish all that He sent it to do Isaiah 55:11, for it is God the Father leading, and working in him].”

17 Thus says the Lord [Father], your Redeemer [Father, for He was in Christ reconciling the wold to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:19, as also Jesus said it was the Father doing the works in him, as the Father should be doing our works in us, that He planed before the foundation of the world that we should walk in. It also speaks of Christ, for he made him to be sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 and the Father redeemed him from the grave as a kinsman for he knew no sin],
The Holy One of Israel [Father]:
“I am the Lord your God [Father],
Who teaches you [Us, and Jesus] to profit,
Who leads you [Us, and Jesus Isaiah 45:13, Psalm 89:22] by the way you should go.

Isaiah 44 and 45, should aid in understanding, that it is the Father working in Christ, which I've also posted somewhere in this thread.

Once you get this, you will never go back, for not only will you understand Isaiah 14:12-14, and 2 Thessalonians 2, but you will see the love of God like you've never seen it before. God cannot leave heaven, to earth His footstool,

so are you really trying as it seems here, to try to convince us that God can't sit on His footstool like the rest of us can? or

and take up residence in a house,

that He cannot reside in His temple on earth? both the physical temple and the body of His people, as His word says He does?

never mind a man that lives in the house, nor can the immortal God die.

and we are back to the immortal nature of God which we already talked about but you didn't respond to other than to say your right and we are wrong...no I am not talking about the whole case you laid out, I am talking about the manageable portion you were asked to talk about and refused, so that we could take it step by step and find understanding.

He had to send a son, His Word, that would do His will. Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness 1 Timothy 3:16.

Well, the I Timothy passage is one of my absolute favorites, but it doesn't say that Jesus isn't God in that passage, it says that the path to godliness is Jesus Christ...so...it seems to me that you don't offer anything substantial to base all this on, hopefully you will do better with the response you get from the person you directed this to.

razzelflabben · Jul 31, 2015

justlookinla said:
Nope, there's nothing but your imagination which concludes this. It's not supported by scripture

wow...what then does it mean when everyone and everything has to bow to you if not worship? What would bowing mean? even websters says this about bow...
: to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame

compare that to websters definition for worship....
: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

Notice the reverence...in fact, scripture talks about falling prostrate before God. So, you don't think that everything and everyone having no choice but to bow before Jesus and confess that He is Lord is not worship? Hum...what would it be then?

I'll keep answering you.....I'm in noways tired. Ask again and I'll answer again, per scripture.

If you have answered it, where is the answer? You even deny that when we are told that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, we are not talking about worship, which is about as (looking for a nice word) messed up as it gets. I couldn't even imagine what else it could mean, so I am waiting anxiously.

Yes, I've addressed what you claimed several times now. You've yet to give anything but your personal conclusion unsupported by scripture.

well now, that simply isn't true, I have provided all kinds of scripture, just because you don't acknowledge they are provided doesn't mean they weren't...so how about being honest about your accusations against me?

What inflammatory remarks? Give an example. You on the other hand have constantly responded in a condescending manner. Does't matter to me though, I simply keep the issue in focus.

what ever, I point out exactly and you just keep saying, where, show me exactly...so I show you exactly and you say, where, show me exactly...seriously, you need some help with reading if you can't do better than that.

I ask that you stick with scripture.

that is exactly what I have done and keep asking you to...You even claimed to use context but didn't even know what the context said....in fact, time and time and time again I showed you the entire sentence and all you could do is say, what sentence, I don't see a sentence, show me a sentence...

Let's start with the one about Jesus' God exalting Him to the position of God, Jesus' God anointing Jesus God who did not have the anointing before His God and Father anointed Him.

I already explained that, pointed out scriptures though I didn't quote them, ask which scripture you wanted me to show specifically since they had already been presented in a different post and all you did was reinvent what I said and then accuse me of not offering scripture. This is inflammatory. I can't be any more specific than that about where you are flaming. Your refusal to accept what is said, your dismissing of scripture so you can accuse it of not being given, these are specific ways you are trying to flame.

Scripture supporting that view, please.

now, when you asked the first time, what did I say? Did you read it? I asked you to tell me specifically which passage you needed, cause all were given and so I didn't know which you were requesting. Instead of providing me with the specifics of what you need, you misrepresented what I said by claiming that I said that Jesus God and Father God were one and the same...where they are all the same God, they have different roles in our lives, so not the same, and yet the same. Now, once again, I showed you where you are misrepresenting me and I will wait for you to ask me to be specific and round and round we go...this is why I have pointed out you are being very difficult and sound like you are brainwashed, cause you always try to argue this way. IOW's specific reasons I suggest that you might have a problem.

I haven't found a scripture you've provided which supports such a view.

Actually, I asked you which ones you wanted me to point out, now you sound like you are trying to falsely accuse me again. this is getting old and why I say that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. See, again, a specific so that you can ignore me and ask for specifics.

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