Kinzer's A BIBLICAL DEFENSE OF ORAL TORAH

Open Heart said:

Sure, and when I reply, a certain individual accuses me of teaching.

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One way around that is to put your statement in the form of a question.
It may also get them to put out more information.

Open Heart said:

BTW - there is a 3rd group in the UMJC headed up by Rabbi Jeff Feinberg of Chicago called "Dayenu."

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This one I vaguely remember, but I don't recall what they stood for. Briefly?

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I do not know that much about them either. I do know Feinberg was really tired of the bickering between Tikkun and Hashveinu. I think it was more of a place to go for those who wanted to stay away from either "extreme."

Open Heart said:

Whatever you think is important about them.

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Well - A bit of history I suppose.

IN the 1970s Dan Juster was a leader in the MJAA - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, and good friends with its leader (Moshe?) Chernoff, father of David and Joel Chernoff. IN the late 70s Chernoff commented that since the MJAA was aimed at individual believers, they needed an organization for congregations as well. So in 1979 Dan Juster, Russ Resenk, Marty Waldman and a few others started a congregational association and presented it to Chernoff.

He was really upset by their "going behind his back" and doing such a thing and he kicked them out. Thus was born the Union of Messianic Jewish Synagogues (UMJS) which eventually changed names to the UMJC. About 5 years later (mid 1980s) Dan Juster was Sr Congregational Leader of Beth Messiah Congregation (BMC) in Rockville MD. Tensions inside the UMJC started brewing between charismatic and non-charismatic factions. Juster was/is very charismatic. About the same time some of the leaders at BMC were planning to make Aliah - move to Israel. So Juster started a small network of UMJC groups as a training/discipling structure (structurally similar to Derek Prince's network) and to support leaders moving to Israel to start congregations there. Thus Tikkun was born.

It continues with these foci: Support for evangelical outreach in Israel (and other major Jewish centers around the world) and the integration of charismatic gifting into Judaism.

http://www.tikkuninternational.org/aboutus.php

Are those who are involved in Tikkun using Is 53 to start and get people thinking?

visionary said:

Are those who are involved in Tikkun using Is 53 to start and get people thinking?

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Of course, among other scriptures.

Open Heart said:

You all may find this article very interesting. A lot of Messianics are against Oral Torah because they agree with the Protestant teaching of Bible only. But can you have Bible only and follow the Torah?

"Is the Written Torah sufficient for instructing the Jewish people in how we should live as individuals, families, and local communities? While it is certainly foundational and indispensable, it is not sufficient. The Torah requires a living tradition of interpretation and application if it is to be practiced in daily life. This is due in part to the lack of detail in its legislation. As Michael Fishbane notes, “frequent lacunae or ambiguities in their legal formulation tend to render [biblical]…laws exceedingly problematic – if not functionally inoperative – without interpretation.” Thus, the Torah forbids all work (melachah) on Shabbat, but it nowhere defines the meaning of melachah. Similarly, it commands that we “afflict ourselves” on Yom Kippur, but it does not tell us what this means in practice. When the Torah teaches about unclean birds, it does not provide any criteria for distinguishing the clean from unclean (as it does for mammals and for fish), but only lists examples. Is this a complete list? What about birds of prey that are not listed?
file:///C:/Users/Owners/Desktop/2003_Jewish_Tradition_Kinzer.pdf

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Tradition, realistically speaking, is a necessity.

But which tradition ?

Jewish, or Catholic, or Protestant ?

To understand the Bible, the Jewish tradition is actually a necessary subject of study. Roman-Catholic and Roman-German (Protestant) traditions are ultimately irrelevant to the study of the ancient middle eastern Scriptures.

Change of priesthood ....
changed from Levi lineage back to Melchizedek version by inspiration... which is the same thing as saying from Moses back to Abraham. ...

The laws themselves don't really change... the necessity of the priesthood branch changed because of the temple is not on earth but the services are now performed in the heavenly sanctuary with Yeshua officiating. So the word "change" doesn't mean void. . Its value in the daily services is decreased... Just like John the Baptist stated that his vocation in God's services must diminish because something better has come.

Eze 5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

On the note regarding Yeshua saying all "foods" clean... First "foods" are all the kosher variety or they would not be considered "food". Second you can not present the argument final answer if you don't present the situation in which is answered.

Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Hoshiyya said:

To understand the Bible, the Jewish tradition is actually a necessary subject of study. Roman-Catholic and Roman-German (Protestant) traditions are ultimately irrelevant to the study of the ancient middle eastern Scriptures.

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I don't think Protestant tradition makes any such claim to being the key to unlock the scriptures. In fact, it is Protestant tradition that would drive one to study other traditional interpretations of the Bible- but it also teaches to question those traditions with the plain reading as the filter and final authority. Rather than being ultimately irrelevant, I think it is rather useful.

One more point: not all Jewish tradition is useful to understand the Bible. Some is absolute garbage.

Hoshiyya said:

I don't throw my brain out the window when reading the Bible.

1) God said certain things are unclean.
2) God does not contradict himself,
3) so OBVIOUSLY you must be misinterpreting Paul. (Unclean things are still unclean.)

It's not complex, guys.

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Absolutely.

There's no RED words saying the law changed. Yeshua is YHWH's exact representation. (Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:15)

Paul is not Yeshua's exact representation. He's doing the best he can to explain God's words to people who have no Torah training. (1 Corinthians 7:40, 2 Peter 3:15-16)

Whatever Paul meant, it can't contradict Yeshua or YHWH.

Also clean and unclean has to do with something being tainted or spoiled by being in contact with something tainted.

IOW an acceptable food (kosher food) can be made unclean (tainted) by coming in contact with something unclean.

But a forbidden food (pork) can't be taken off the forbidden list.

IOW, FORBIDDEN and UNCLEAN are 2 different things.

When Yeshua said all FOODS are clean, HE meant unwashed hands can't make ACCEPTABLE food tainted and unclean.

He never meant forbidden foods now came off the forbidden list.

staff edit

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Look, just read what the Holy Writings say. Begin at the beginning. If you begin half-way through there's no chance you're gonna get it right. It's like walking into the cinema half-way through the movie. You're gonna think the hero is the villain, and whatnot !

God told us to keep certain laws and he also declared certain things unclean.
God told us he would not change his mind.
You disagree with God, or rather, hold to a belief system that disagrees with God.

Again, let's try this very simple excercise:

On Monday, Dad tells you not to smoke cigarettes.
He SPECIFICALLY tells you that he will not change his mind, and that if anyone tells you he's changed his mind, don't believe them.

On Tuesday, someone said something in Hebrew, while you were in the other room, and your buddy Nick from school tells you that what was said in Hebrew was: your dad's wrong.

You now have the choice to obey Dad or not.

It's never too late to turn to Torah. It's never to late to obey Dad.

Truthfrees said:

Whatever Paul meant, it can't contradict Yeshua or YHWH.

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Indeed. As you know I have sometimes wished Paul phrased things differently.

My own teacher really liked James, because, as he said, James doesn't pull any punches. He speaks directly.

But to be honest, if Paul was not in line with Torah, I hope the spirit would have testified of it to me sooner. Sometimes we mistake our own intuition/instinct for the Spirit, but I think Paul's writings have been allowed to become part of the Bible for a reason. I hope he will be in the millennial kingdom, as an immortal administrator/prince along with Moses our Teacher, and all the great ones. But I wonder what he will make of his legacy.

JLB777 said:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4

...end of the law!

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Yes. Fulfillment. He is what you get when you keep the law.

Just like a plant is the end - the result - of watering and caring for the seed.
Babies are the end of procreation.
Now what? Do you throw the baby out ?
NO - the journey simply goes on.

"Christ did not keep the law of Moses,
for He never sinned."

What a gigantic, massive error. I cannot emphasize how wrong you are, strongly enough.

To KEEP the law means you are not a criminal.
To BREAK (not keep) the law makes you a criminal.

Comprende ?
Didn't you learn this in school ?

If he didn't keep the law, he was not the Messiah. It's as simple as that.

Seriosusly, is this all the antinomians have to offer ?
This has been pleasant. A nice little demonstration of how utterly - UTTERLY - illogical the antinomian position is. It sounds like I am exaggerating. But I am not. It (the antinomian position) makes less sense than just about any proposition a man has come up with, ever.

Years ago, I'd maybe worry about this. But when you are on the side of truth, or to the extent you are on the side of truth, there is nothing to worry about. If there is untruth in me, that will be contradicted, and I'll get past it. But the Torah is time-honored. Its validity, over and above the human systems that seek to replace it, is proven every single day, every single week, every single year, since the creation of this blessed globe.

JLB, I think you need to re-read the MJ SOP

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-mj-sop-messianic-statement-of-purpose.7797477/

"No anti-Torah theology. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are ‘under the law’, or re-erecting the ‘wall of partition’, or that Torah has been made null and void, or done away with."

Open Heart said:

I think it depends on what you are studying. If you are studying the Law, who knows the Law better than the Jews? But the Rabbis are unconcerned with any understanding of the New Testament. In the interpretation of the New Testament, we are dependent upon the Early Church Fathers.

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That is changing with Messianic Judaism which takes wisdom from OT, NT, Sages, etc.