Animal rights come before religion

Oafman · Jul 30, 2015

Denmark bans kosher and halal slaughter as minister says ‘animal rights come before religion’

Personally, I'm very much undecided on this. I would rather animals were stunned before being killed, but I do think that what happens in the last ten seconds of an animal's life is almost irrelevant in comparison to how it is treated throughout the rest of its life.

So how do people feel about this? Is this Danish doctrine discerning, or is something rotten in the state of Denmark?!

Do you stand with PETA or with the MUSLIMS?!

ken777 · Jul 30, 2015

Oafman said:
Denmark bans kosher and halal slaughter as minister says ‘animal rights come before religion’

Personally, I'm very much undecided on this. I would rather animals were stunned before being killed, but I do think that what happens in the last ten seconds of an animal's life is almost irrelevant in comparison to how it is treated throughout the rest of its life.

So how do people feel about this? Is this Danish doctrine discerning, or is something rotten in the state of Denmark?!

Do you stand with PETA or with the MUSLIMS?!

Here in Australia we have found a compromise:

The main concern with halal slaughter is whether or not pre-slaughter stunning is used. In Australia, the national standard for meat production requires that all animals must be effectively stunned (unconscious) prior to slaughter. The vast majority of halal slaughter in Australia (including at export abattoirs) complies with this standard, that is, all animals are stunned prior to slaughter. The only difference is that a reversible stunning method is used, while conventional humane slaughter may use an irreversible stunning method. The time to regain consciousness following a reversible stun may vary depending on the intensity of the stun. At Australian abattoirs, the aim is to ensure that reversible stunning is done in a way that depth of unconsciousness is sufficient to allow for the animal to bleed out and die before there is a chance of regaining consciousness.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/what-is-halal-slaughter-in-australia_116.html

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grasping the after wind · Jul 30, 2015

I do not consider that animals have rights at all. The idea of rights is something that has come about to keep proper order in relationship to the interactions of human beings among themselves and does not have any real application to animals that frankly have no clue or thought about rights of themselves and would not afford them to you if they did. animals understand dominance and submission and that is about it. A reasonable person does not treat any creature cruelly or abusively but that is not a matter of some rights possessed by an animal but a matter of a human being acting in a humane manner. There is something mentally disturbed about anyone that acts cruelly to another living being not because of some right the being possesses but because cruelty is simply a reprehensible thing by innate human standards of conduct.

LionL · Jul 30, 2015

Well done Denmark. I hope that the UK follows suit soon.

grasping the after wind said:
I do not consider that animals have rights at all.

Then would you not prosecute someone who deliberately tortured, for example, cats?

Dave-W · Jul 30, 2015

Oafman said:
Do you stand with PETA or with the MUSLIMS?!

I cannot stand with either. Christians are forbidden to eat meat that meets a violent death and to have nothing sacrificed to idols. All hallel meat is sacrificed to an idol of islam.

LionL · Jul 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Christians are forbidden to eat meat that meets a violent death.

Which meat does not suffer a violent death? Does any slaughterhouse administer an anaesthetic prior to killing its animals?

Dave-W · Jul 30, 2015

LionL said:
Which meat does not suffer a violent death? Does any slaughterhouse administer an anaesthetic prior to killing its animals?

Probably not allowed by the fda. But I know of Kosher butchers who "hypnotize" the animals before they are slaughtered so there is no big negative reaction by the animals (even the chickens do not flop around) and with very sharp knives, the pain is minimal.

Holoman · Jul 30, 2015

I don't have a problem with this, Muslims don't have to eat meat, so if Denmark doesn't want animals killed in that way then they'll just have to stop killing and eating meat.

That said, human rights should trump animal rights, I just don't consider eating meat a human right.

LionL · Jul 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Probably not allowed by the fda. But I know of Kosher butchers who "hypnotize" the animals before they are slaughtered so there is no big negative reaction by the animals (even the chickens do not flop around) and with very sharp knives, the pain is minimal.

You're right. The British equivalent of the FDA most likely bans anaesthetic too. However, the death, though not painful, is still violent.

Oafman · Jul 30, 2015

grasping the after wind said:
I do not consider that animals have rights at all. The idea of rights is something that has come about to keep proper order in relationship to the interactions of human beings among themselves and does not have any real application to animals that frankly have no clue or thought about rights of themselves and would not afford them to you if they did. animals understand dominance and submission and that is about it. A reasonable person does not treat any creature cruelly or abusively but that is not a matter of some rights possessed by an animal but a matter of a human being acting in a humane manner. There is something mentally disturbed about anyone that acts cruelly to another living being not because of some right the being possesses but because cruelty is simply a reprehensible thing by innate human standards of conduct.

So, given that it is very straightforward to stun animals before killing them, do you consider it cruel not to do so?

Oafman · Jul 30, 2015

Holoman said:
I don't have a problem with this, Muslims don't have to eat meat, so if Denmark doesn't want animals killed in that way then they'll just have to stop killing and eating meat.

That said, human rights should trump animal rights, I just don't consider eating meat a human right.

Apparently Danish Muslims and Jews have been importing halal and kosher meat for the last 10 years anyway, as for some reason (not made clear in the article) no conscious animal has been killed in Denmark in that period of time, even though the EU exemption in the law did apply.

grasping the after wind · Jul 30, 2015

LionL said:
Well done Denmark. I hope that the UK follows suit soon.

Then would you not prosecute someone who deliberately tortured, for example, cats?

I would prosecute them. Not because cats have rights but because it is a crime to torture cats. Vandalism is also a crime not because buildings have rights though.

bhsmte · Jul 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I cannot stand with either. Christians are forbidden to eat meat that meets a violent death and to have nothing sacrificed to idols. All hallel meat is sacrificed to an idol of islam.

Does this mean, Christians should only eat meat from animals that die of natural causes?

grasping the after wind · Jul 30, 2015

Oafman said:
So, given that it is very straightforward to stun animals before killing them, do you consider it cruel not to do so?

I'm not sure as I am not an expert on animal physiology or animal psychology. If stunning is indeed the more humane treatment i would advocate that people butcher their prey in that way . I do not know that the difference between stunning and doing it the way Muslims are bound by their religion to do it is large enough to infringe upon their religious freedom. It is not an easy determination to make but I would err on the side of an actual human right if it were up to me, which it is not.

ViaCrucis · Jul 30, 2015

I was under the impression that both kosher and halal methods of animal slaughter were, generally, more humane.

I certainly do support the humane treatment of animals and I am more than willing to speak against the cruel practices we see, for example, here in the States (such that, I've regularly considered vegetarianism an option); but that doesn't overrule the rights of persons to practice their religion. So this is an easy choice, I would stand with Jews and Muslims.

I believe it is possible to support the religious liberties of people and treat animals humanely. That should never be an either/or decision.

-CryptoLutheran

Messy · Jul 30, 2015

I understand that Jews want to do it kosher and animal rights should not come before that. What I find disgusting is that in Holland the biggest supermarket had all the cattle slaughtered hallal just for the money, because it was easier. So people bought something which didn't say it was hallal, but it was.

Messy · Jul 30, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
I was under the impression that both kosher and halal methods of animal slaughter were, generally, more humane.

I certainly do support the humane treatment of animals and I am more than willing to speak against the cruel practices we see, for example, here in the States (such that, I've regularly considered vegetarianism an option); but that doesn't overrule the rights of persons to practice their religion. So this is an easy choice, I would stand with Jews and Muslims.

I believe it is possible to support the religious liberties of people and treat animals humanely. That should never be an either/or decision.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't know. My nephew was a Slaughter and the normal method was only animal friendly if they did it right and a lot of times it went wrong. He got depressed from having to Slaughter a cow in the middle of the night and got nightmares, so he found another job.

Dave-W · Jul 30, 2015

bhsmte said:
Does this mean, Christians should only eat meat from animals that die of natural causes?

No - that would be forbidden also as it is not properly drained of blood.

bhsmte · Jul 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
No - that would be forbidden also as it is not properly drained of blood.

What kind of death would be acceptable then, for a christian to eat meat from that animal?

Dave-W · Jul 30, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
I was under the impression that both kosher and halal methods of animal slaughter were, generally, more humane.

Probably so. The only reason halal meat is forbidden is that it is sacrificed to the idol of islam.

Animal rights come before religion

Try telling that to these bog brained murphys

"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

That's grasping after the wind

Believer in God, doubter of religion

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Believer in God, doubter of religion

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Credo

Believer in God, doubter of religion

Try telling that to these bog brained murphys

Try telling that to these bog brained murphys

That's grasping after the wind

Newbie

That's grasping after the wind

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Newbie

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

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