Do past and current LDS leaders knowingly continue a fraud?

Tigger45 · Jul 29, 2015

smaneck said:
I see Christians saying this all the time.

Good look it up yourself.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

Tigger45 said:
You were attacking Christianity. That's personal to me.

First off, that's a cop out. And baloney. My faith is constantly attacked and you don't see me resorting to personal attacks on the people making those comments.

That being said, point out which of my statement attacks Christianity and in what way.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

mmksparbud said:
LOL---"Either the splintering of a faith system is a problem or it is not"

I'm glad you find statements of logic so funny.

mmksparbud said:
We're splintered, you're splintered---why is you being splintered ok and our being splintered a problem??

It might help your argument if I had said something along those lines, but I haven't. This is something that you have come up with and are tossing it at me. I have no need to defend a stance that I haven't made. Why would you even think I should?

mmksparbud said:
Are you saying that you do not believe that our bible is corrupted and needed Joseph Smith to get us back to where it's supposed to be??? Maybe that point needs to be straightened out first so we can be sure we are discussing things at the same level. Can you please set me straight as to your believe about accuracy of our bible and why we need the BOM?? I do not wish to have inaccurate information.

The funny thing about the whole "Are you saying" bit is that what is presented the vast majority of the time does not resemble what the other person said, let alone meant. Being that as it may, I will state again (I seem to have to do that a lot) that I am not moving in a new direction with this discussion until the first point is settled.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

Tigger45 said:
He comes from a tradition that's whole meaning for existence from one of their founders first vision(s) 'which by the way is an oxymoron' was that all religions were an abomination to God and then he comes to forum set up by those very religions and casts aspersions against them is only asking for at least the history of that tradition be examined for what it is.

CFR. What aspersion have I cast against any religion in this discussion? Or pretty much any discussion I've been involved in? This is bearing false witness against me.

mmksparbud · Jul 30, 2015

Ran77 said:
I'm glad you find statements of logic so funny.

It might help your argument if I had said something along those lines, but I haven't. This is something that you have come up with and are tossing it at me. I have no need to defend a stance that I haven't made. Why would you even think I should?

The funny thing about the whole "Are you saying" bit is that what is presented the vast majority of the time does not resemble what the other person said, let alone meant. Being that as it may, I will state again (I seem to have to do that a lot) that I am not moving in a new direction with this discussion until the first point is settled.

If by first point you mean this:
[QUOTE="Ran77, post: 68384895, member: 29539"Splinter groups within the LDS faith = problem.
Splinter groups with the Christian faith = no problem.[/QUOTE]

I posted why I turned it around---because of what has been said here by other Mormons--that we are splintered because we have a corrupted bible---nobody said being splintered was a problem until the Mormons brought it up here first making this claim. I don't care whether you personally said it or not---that is the sentiment expressed, and it was said first by Mormons here--so I merely pointed out that, by that very same logic, now that I'm, finding about you guys being splintered also (this guy had me believing you all were basically in unity---silly me)--I am a saying that then ,means that you must have a corrupted BOM----like you said---if it's good for one, then it's good for the other. So, in other words, no one should have a double standard.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

mmksparbud said:
If by first point you mean this:

Ran77 said:
I posted why I turned it around---because of what has been said here by other Mormons--that we are splintered because we have a corrupted bible---nobody said being splintered was a problem until the Mormons brought it up here first making this claim. I don't care whether you personally said it or not---that is the sentiment expressed, and it was said first by Mormons here--so I merely pointed out that, by that very same logic, now that I'm, finding about you guys being splintered also (this guy had me believing you all were basically in unity---silly me)--I am a saying that then ,means that you must have a corrupted BOM----like you said---if it's good for one, then it's good for the other. So, in other words, no one should have a double standard.

I haven't proposed a double standard. If someone else has then I suggest you discuss it with them. In the meantime, I'll wait for an actual response to my point.

Cactus Jack · Jul 30, 2015

Ran77 said:
There is a logic problem happening here.
Splinter groups within the LDS faith = problem.
Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith = no problem.
Scientifically and mathematically this stance is indefensible. It defies logic and reason. Yet it is the stance that our critics take.

The Christian groups have their own set of splinters, that’s for sure. As much as Christians are talking about the LDS being unChristian, I suppose they forgot to look at themselves first (I forget the scripture about the splinter in your brother’s eye versus a log in yours....?). If a Christian church accepts gays or women as clergy, guess what? They themselves aren’t very Christian.

Reference:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons)
Titus 1:5-9 (Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good)

Tigger45 said:
You were attacking Christianity. That's personal to me.

Yeah, as if your hands are clean. Come on. We can discuss and debate, but let’s leave out the attacks, ok?

Tigger45 · Jul 30, 2015

Ran77 said:
First off, that's a cop out. And baloney. My faith is constantly attacked and you don't see me resorting to personal attacks on the people making those comments.

That being said, point out which of my statement attacks Christianity and in what way.

Ran77 said:
So it is the Protestant fruits of Christianity.

No thanks. They seem quite bitter to me.

Pretty simple really.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
The Christian groups have their own set of splinters, that’s for sure. As much as Christians are talking about the LDS being unChristian, I suppose they forgot to look at themselves first (I forget the scripture about the splinter in your brother’s eye versus a log in yours....?). If a Christian church accepts gays or women as clergy, guess what? They themselves aren’t very Christian.

Reference:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons)
Titus 1:5-9 (Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good)

Yeah, as if your hands are clean. Come on. We can discuss and debate, but let’s leave out the attacks, ok?

Thank you.

Supreme · Jul 30, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
The Christian groups have their own set of splinters, that’s for sure. As much as Christians are talking about the LDS being unChristian, I suppose they forgot to look at themselves first (I forget the scripture about the splinter in your brother’s eye versus a log in yours....?). If a Christian church accepts gays or women as clergy, guess what? They themselves aren’t very Christian.

Reference:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Women in churches)
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons)
Titus 1:5-9 (Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good)

Yeah, as if your hands are clean. Come on. We can discuss and debate, but let’s leave out the attacks, ok?

'Christian' is defined on this site very clearly; the acceptance of the Nicene Creed and the CF Statement of Faith. We don't define Christians as someone who 'accepts every part of Scripture', because that's a matter for debate, as a cursory glance at our Christian debate forums shows.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

Tigger45 said:
Pretty simple really.

Not simple enough. In this thread, I have offered my view on the subject and explained that the actions of men do not determine the truthfulness or falseness of a religion. That is what I believe and that is my stance. However, the example set by members of any given denomination will have an impact on how people react to their religion. What you copied was a tongue-in-cheek reminder of that fact. Or to put it another way, I was pointing out behavior that I felt certain did not fit within the scope of what the Protestant church teaches.

Unless you are telling me that the Protestants actually advocate personally attacking those who believe differently from themselves. Is that the case?

Tigger45 · Jul 30, 2015

Ran77 said:
Not simple enough. In this thread, I have offered my view on the subject and explained that the actions of men do not determine the truthfulness or falseness of a religion. That is what I believe and that is my stance. However, the example set by members of any given denomination will have an impact on how people react to their religion. What you copied was a tongue-in-cheek reminder of that fact. Or to put it another way, I was pointing out behavior that I felt certain did not fit within the scope of what the Protestant church teaches.

Unless you are telling me that the Protestants actually advocate personally attacking those who believe differently from themselves. Is that the case?

Again see post #529. Particularly the bold text.

seashale76 · Jul 30, 2015

Christus Discipulus said:
Mormons claim to be Christians and claiming to be that which you are not is the very definition of FRAUD.

Is Ironhold now saying otherwise again? She already agreed that we don't believe or worship the same way in another thread.

Red Fox · Jul 30, 2015

Christus Discipulus said:
Mormons claim to be Christians and claiming to be that which you are not is the very definition of FRAUD.

I know I'm not the only one who has noticed this apparent contradiction but according to one of the very rules of this site itself....

● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

smaneck · Jul 30, 2015

katerinah1947 said:
And now you want to discuss the Denominational issues within the Christian Community, but I do not know if you have that authority and permisssions to switch from a Mormon Conversation to a Christian Denominational discussion.

I believe it is up to the person who starts the thread (Fatboys in this case) to decide whether a thread is being derailed.

seashale76 · Jul 30, 2015

Red Fox said:
I know I'm not the only one who has noticed this apparent contradiction but according to one of the very rules of this site itself....

● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Christian is defined here at CF as those that accept the Nicene Creed. Mormons do NOT.

smaneck · Jul 30, 2015

Red Fox said:
I know I'm not the only one who has noticed this apparent contradiction but according to one of the very rules of this site itself....

● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

I think the mods decided to make an exception to any groups that don't accept the Nicaean Creed, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses in this case. That's why they got banished here to the World Religion Forum. However, one the rules of this forum is that religions of others are not to be degraded, belittled or mocked. That's means Christians can't engage in the same kind of attacks as they did in the "unorthodox" folder, at least they cannot do this and pretend to be following the list rules.

Ran77 · Jul 30, 2015

Tigger45 said:
Again see post #529. Particularly the bold text.

Saw it the first time. Saw it again. Bitter words make for a bad example. If the goal is to push people away then bitter words are exactly on target. Otherwise--Not!

RC1970 · Jul 30, 2015

seashale76 said:
Is Ironhold now saying otherwise again? She already agreed that we don't believe or worship the same way in another thread.

I have found that Mormons are always trying to be accepted as Christians. This is one of their primary tactics. If they can sneak in the backdoor, then they have a foothold. The Scriptures says "resist the devil and he will flee" and so I will try.

However, the CF staff seems to be forming a more pluralistic stance on the issue of Mormons, so who knows what will happen.

FredVB · Jul 30, 2015

fatboys said:
And what would be the purpose of presenting the documentation since a person can twist truth. I remember watching a documentary about the cattle industry. They were criticizing all aspects industry. They begin with the part of the industry I was part of, the cow calf industry. I use to run about 270 momma cows. They depicted this industry as abusing animal rights. They showed how calves were born and then how they were handle which included vaccination branding dehorning and casteration. I had no problem with how they depicted it but they needed to show why it was done. It is for the health of the animal and the herd. Then they showed hoe cattlemen beat and abused animals. That I had a problem with. They depicted a cow that was down she had had a hard labor and was temporily paralyzed. It show the hired hands hitting her and using electric shot prods to get her up. What they failed to say was that if the cow did not get up many times they just keep pushing as if the calf had not been born and push her uterus out which will cause the buttons where the placenta was attached to bleed and the cow will bleed out in a few minutes. So cattlemen would use everything they had to encourage her stand. I have done it many times myself. Another reason is that the cow needs to stand and get the circulation started in those rear legs or she may take weeks to get up or never at all. So they took a truth and chose to place their attitudes of humanizing animals and put their value on the same level as humans. What got me upset is that they showed cattlemen as uncaring people. It was if we were on the same level as hitler. I cared for my cattle and spent thousands of dollars to keep them heathy. Not just because of the almighty dollar but because I cared for them. I knew every animal and I am not the exception. There are those who do abuse. I use to run cattle on the nation forest in common with several other herds in the summer. During fall roundup which takes a couple of weeks I was loading cattle on my truck. Just as the last one was loaded I heard screaming and yelling as if someone was going nuts. I went over to where this young man was just going nuts beating on this cow that would not go up the loading chute. I asked him what in the "blank are you doing"? He just said the cow will not go up the chute. I said lets unload a few cows off your truck. He said why? I said just do it. So we did and after getting them aimed in the right direction all of them loaded up perfectly. He learned a valuable lesson. Most cattlemen care for animals like they are more than just money.
Anyway just because there are documents does not translated on either side that the story is 100% the truth. You have to take the whole of the story to get as close to the truth as possible. It's like cherry picking scriptures.

This account is at the least just as deceptive. The industry does have such abuse, extensively, very few are exceptional from that, and the industry and many with vested interests invest heavily to keep knowledge of facts about it away from the general public, and take advantage of concerns with hype for some animal meat being "humane meat", that those so concerned will continue being consumers with demand for meat and pay much more for. There is real basis for the idustry and those with vested interests to move Agriculture Gag laws to be in effect. The business, interested in the demand, meeting it and keeping it up, moves animals through for slaughter quickly and in reality without any careful regard for ethical handling of all the animals, it attracts such people who are uncaring to such extent, and it encourage those in it toward being uncaring with animals there not thought of other than as products, and an inconvenience that can be abused if there is any deviance from anything that is considered in line with cooperation. Such animals are not inferior to those valued as pets. Animal lives too have value, even if human lives have the highest value, which is supposed to be with our ethical and humane capacity for that to mean anything, scriptures go along with this, such as in Proverbs 12:10. The few that are exceptions to being uncaring as such are mostly not in the farm factories where it is that 99% of meat being purchased comes from, they are away in the few open farms from where animal products are still available for purchase. There are cases of such owners who see what is involved, these are real exceptions, and come to changing their life over that and becoming vegan. There is documentation online of such. There is a healthier way very possible with that. An honest position would recognise in the early history of the Mormon movement under Joseph Smith there was emphasis on compassion towards animals from them too, and to not choose having animal meat unless it was really necessary. But leaders in the church came to moving away from that position which maybe they found convenient for them.

Documents do show some things to take seriously. A hard look at Mormon beliefs with their book doesn't stand up to standards that are with the Bible and those which the Bible meets.

Me FredVB said:
With having the truth provided, those who come to repentance with faith in Christ have relationship with Yahweh God available with their salvation. There are people who don't know enough of this, and they are likely to fall for other beliefs, such as happens with people going to Mormonism.

fatboys said:
Are you saying I don't have a relationship with Christ? Even though I feel that your understanding of Christ and his atonement is not complete I would never say you that you do not have a relationship with Christ.

Nothing is said about you personally in this. Even elect might be deceived in some error. There is documentation for what is true, and relationship is with truth and vital with having the truth, in faith.

Do past and current LDS leaders knowingly continue a fraud?

Pray like your life depends on it!

Senior Contributor

Senior Contributor

Senior Contributor

Well-Known Member

Senior Contributor

Well-Known Member

Pray like your life depends on it!

Senior Contributor

British

Senior Contributor

Pray like your life depends on it!

Unapologetic Iconodule

Well-Known Member

Baha'i

Unapologetic Iconodule

Baha'i

Senior Contributor

post tenebras lux

Regular Member

Similar threads