Chicken Little
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Why do people believe in a Rapture?
- Thread starter Bro.T
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"Please quote the scripture for the statement."
This is for you JLB
I have looked over your above views .... classic post-tribulation dribble
And you can argue against this [Revelation 3:10] until you are blue in the face
Your theology is one of ignoring related many scriptures .... very shallow
And the real death knell to your idea are the mortals of believing humanity that will survive the coming tribulation and will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals .... who will not be deceived by Satan because of his absence
Learn this truth and then return to your drawing board .... you are on a road that has risk for you
No need to respond .... there really is nothing else for you and I to discuss on the matter
This is for you JLB
I have looked over your above views .... classic post-tribulation dribble
And you can argue against this [Revelation 3:10] until you are blue in the face
Your theology is one of ignoring related many scriptures .... very shallow
And the real death knell to your idea are the mortals of believing humanity that will survive the coming tribulation and will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals .... who will not be deceived by Satan because of his absence
Learn this truth and then return to your drawing board .... you are on a road that has risk for you
No need to respond .... there really is nothing else for you and I to discuss on the matter
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It is my understanding that we read the words of the text and use those words to understand the message that we are to get from that passage of God's Word.
No scripture is subject to any private interpretation. Once we go down that road, we are lost...
If there is plenty of room for it in the passage, please show us where it is located.
.
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Marvin Knox
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The principle is pretty simple. Let me illustrate.
Say you don't believe in sanctification.
You select a passage that tells about the process of salvation - in this case, Romans 8:30-31.
"and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
You tell me that I cannot find sanctification in the salvation process. You give me this verse to prove that the order of salvation does not included sanctification.
I tell you that you can't find sanctification in this passage alone.
But I do tell you in passing that there is plenty of room in the passage for sanctification. In other words your selected passage doesn't in any way preclude the existence of sanctification.
This is the case in your choice of the Thessalonians passage.
Besides that the rapture is right there in the last paragraph of what we call chapter 4.
The 5th chapter, on the other hand, starts with telling us of the "Day of the Lord".
The Day of the Lord is not the rapture. No theologian that I know of would say so. It is associated with wrath and judgment in both the old and new testaments.
Isa. 2:12 and Rev. 16:14 can serve as examples.
"For the Lord of hosts will have a day of reckoning against everyone who is proud and lofty and against everyone who is lifted up, that he may be abased."
"for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty."
It is exactly those kinds of judgments and the wrath of God found in the Tribulation period that the doctrine of a pre-trib. rapture comforts believers with by showing us that we are not destined for wrath.
(As if He should have to tell a child of God that twice.)
This is all pretty basic. I don't know that I will have enough time to lead you through these kinds of principles many more times.
Many good systematic theologies should be able to help you.
Post Darby of course.
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Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Why would you need to ask what the purpose is if you don't believe there will be a rapture?
I'm not avoiding your question. I'm trying to understand your logic. It's like someone who refuses to believe in God asking a question on how to find God.
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Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Of course. There will be no rapture for those in darkness. Regardless what they read in the bible, they won't believe it, they won't know it, they won't understand it, they won't even see it after millions of people vanished. They're in darkness as Paul said.
They'll just wander in circles during the tribulation asking why, why, why, why is everything falling apart at the seam, why is the world in chaos, why are so many people dying left and right? These people are just in darkness: lost souls waiting for things to be revealed to them after the judgement.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1 Timothy 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Combine the scriptures together and this is what it looks like and what will happen to those who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those "speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned. "
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Delusion is present
And the great controversy between the Lord and Satan is raging
And this condition will move up the scale during the coming tribulation
.... this why the number one argument today is over the subject of this topic
The Lord holds .... and the devil is in a panic
And the great controversy between the Lord and Satan is raging
And this condition will move up the scale during the coming tribulation
.... this why the number one argument today is over the subject of this topic
The Lord holds .... and the devil is in a panic
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It is exactly those kinds of judgments and the wrath of God found in the Tribulation period that the doctrine of a pre-trib. rapture comforts believers with by showing us that we are not destined for wrath.
(As if He should have to tell a child of God that twice.)
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This is all pretty basic. I don't know that I will have enough time to lead you through these kinds of principles many more times.
Many good systematic theologies should be able to help you.
Post Darby of course.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain the basics to me.
If you are happy with your 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ 2 ways of Salvation (Grace and later Law Keeping)/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Rebuilding the Middle Wall of Separation/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds doctrine, then you will not need to tell me again.
Thanks for the conversation.
Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
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You do err
I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."
Do you get the meaning of the above?Why is it that Day can't overtake those in the light?Simple because He told us the signs to watch for before His return..I never said I knew the Day,but you can best believe I know the season,how? Again He told us.....
One problem among many with this doctrine is,it teaches Christ can return at any time,and that's simply not true,how do I know
Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
My question to you is,how can He return before any of the signs He's about to give in this chapter,answer,He can't and won't
Jesus went to great detail of what the events and signs would be just before His second advent, that would mark the end of this flesh age.
Where is the rapture in this chapter?
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
You're welcome.
It's always a pleasure to try to school people on the basics of systematic theology even if they choose to ignore the education
Good luck with your internet cut and paste theology.
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"Do you get the meaning of the above?Why is it that Day can't overtake those in the light?Simple because He told us the signs to watch for before His return"
Nay ..... the believer already knows in advance .... do you read your Bible?
The believer already knows the Lord's intent to keep His true ecclesia from His coming wrath and judgment
If you are around when the signs and events of the tribulation began roll you can know that you have missed something
He has warned you to be "ready" [saved] .... if you ignore this and at the same time refute warning you are at risk [Matthew 24:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
Do not second guess Him
Can you "get" this truth?
Nay ..... the believer already knows in advance .... do you read your Bible?
The believer already knows the Lord's intent to keep His true ecclesia from His coming wrath and judgment
If you are around when the signs and events of the tribulation began roll you can know that you have missed something
He has warned you to be "ready" [saved] .... if you ignore this and at the same time refute warning you are at risk [Matthew 24:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
Do not second guess Him
Can you "get" this truth?
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Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
What part of after don't you get?After what?
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I am just a babe still feeding on milk and not yet ready for the meat from your Dispensationalist pantry.
Thanks for the education. I have met a few humble Dispensationalists, but not many.
Thank you, for leaving out step 3.
.................................................................................
Debate Strategy of Some Dispensational Futurists:
1. Deny or ridicule the origin of the doctrine.
2. Divide, ignore, cherry-pick, twist, or change scripture to make the doctrine work.
3. Make a personal attack on those who dare to oppose the doctrine.
.
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Whete is there a seven year span of time between the Rapture and Resurrection in this verse ?
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:1
The raptures ones will be caught up TOGETHER with the resurrected ones.
The Ressurrection is after the tribulation at Jesus Second Coming.
The resurrection is before the rapture.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
The dead in Christ rise first!
Then we who are alive and remain... Are caught up TOGETHER with them.
Checkmate.
JLB
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Soooooo you're saying Rev 3:10 to be kept, means to be raptured?The Isrealites were kept from the plagues did they get raptured?They were kept by the blood....In the endtimes we are kept by the seal...
Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."
You will either have the seal of God or the Mark of the beast,no in betweens....
Now about these mortals during the millennium
First no one will be born during the millennium,as the age of the flesh shall be over and all shall have been changed to their spiritual bodies...Christ kingdom shall be here on earth and flesh and blood cannot enter into that...
When we are changed at the 7th trump the difference will be wheather or not we receive a mortal soul or an immortal one....
To have a mortal one means you stand a chance of dying the 2nd death,which is the death of that soul in the lake of fire...
Not to say no one shall die during the trib but the only way to survive is to have the seal of God.........Not hope to escape......
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Marvin, do you realize that your above statement is RATHER the confirmation that the rapture (caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air) will happen when Jesus will come as a thief in Revelation 16:15... WE ie(THOSE of us who hold the Testimony of Jesus and the Word of God - are not in darkness KNOW that this is the End of the Tribulation mentioned in Rev 16:17 "it is done"...
WE know that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord come immediately after the Tribulation culminating with the total earthquake Rev 16:18-20...,the battle of that great day of God Almighty ....,then 2Peter 3:10
Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Are you sure about that? It would sure seem odd to have the two witnesses begin their testimony after the tribulation.
Malachi 4:4-5
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the
Lord.
And they will preach for the whole 42 months the temple is up, which means the two witnesses arrives on the first Day of the Lord at the beginning of the tribulation.
Revelation 11:1-3
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
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The two witnesses will preach 42 months DURING the Tribulation.The Day of the Lord come IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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You would be wise to study and understand what the tribulation is.....As for the witnesses
They testify during the tribe not starting on the Day of the Lord,for that is the day Christ returns,which He clearly stated in Matt 24........
Revelation 11:1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God,"
This "reed" John was given, was not for making a measurement. The reed was a "scepter"; a rod not for building something, but for destruction. The destruction is for the tearing down of the temple of God, the altar, and all of them that worship within. The reason for this destruction is because at this time the Antichrist will be sitting on the throne of God in the temple, making sacrifice to himself, and the people of the world will believe he is God.
This is the time of the "abomination by the desolator", spoken of in Daniel 9:27, and at that time, Satan, the "son of perdition" will be revealed in the temple at Jerusalem, as recorded in II Thessalonians 2:2-4.
II Thessalonians 2:2"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
This warning by Paul the Apostle is to alert those living in our generation, that generation living here on earth in their flesh bodies just prior to Jesus second coming that another event shall happen first. If you know in your mind and expect it to happen, then the things that are going on around us at this time will not shake our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. It is given so that we will not be taken in by Satan when he moves to take control with the authority that God shall give him for that short period of time.
II Thessalonians 2:3"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"
The day that is the subject here is "the day of the Lord", also called "the day of Christ". That is the day that Jesus Christ returns to earth and all flesh is changed into their incorruptible bodies, and the Millennium kingdom of Christ begins. Paul is telling us this, because Jesus had revealed this fact to him, and our Heavenly Father expects all of his elect to be aware of this knowledge. The "man of sin" is "the son of perdition" and he is also know as "Lucifer", the "great dragon" and by many other names for the roles that he plays. Of course we are talking about Satan. Satan will be the person that must be revealed in this role before Jesus Christ returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and on that day, Satan's role of the Antichrist is over.
So Paul is warning us; "Let no man deceive you by any means", not by some revelation of a evil spirit that appears to be from God, not by some church minister or tradition that seems so right or any other means that the men and women of this world age might use to draw you to Satan upon his coming to this earth. Sure Satan is coming to earth, and he is bringing all his spiritual forces with him. We will read of this in the next chapter.
II Thessalonians 2:4"Who [Satan] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Satan will come to earth and play the role that is expect of Jesus Christ. He will exalt himself from Jerusalem, and build his temple like the people expect Jesus to build His. He will say the words and do miracles and wonders just as people expect Jesus to do them. Satan will also demand worship by all the people just as our Lord Jesus Christ will do. Satan in his role as the Antichrist will be a copy of what people expect Jesus Christ to be, only he will be the false Christ, the instead of Christ, a cheap imitation that will last for only five months, and was given in Revelation 9:5, 10.
This spiritual destruction will allow it to happen, and even give Satan his authority for this five month period of time. Jesus also spoke of this destruction in Matthew 24:15, when He was telling His disciples what Christians could expect before His coming back to earth.
So it is during this shortened five month period of time that these two witness will be present on earth and doing the things that are spoken of in this eleventh chapter of Revelations. Remember that "months" are in reference to Satan and his times and the children of the night, while "days and years" are in reference to God and the children of light.
Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gen'-tiles [nations]: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
The lamentations of Jeremiah recorded this future destruction about 588 B.C., in Lamentations 2:8. "The line" that was stretched out is the scepter that John has been given. Lamentations 2:9, "Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars; her king and her princes are among the Gen'-tiles [nations]: The law is no more [where the law is not]; her prophets also find no vision from the Lord."
Notice that this future destruction is complete, and the king is spelt with a small "k". The princes of Zion in fact today call themselves Gentiles. For they simply do not know who they are. Even today God's laws are being so altered by religious men that they go against the Word of God.
The prophets of the house of Israel have no vision from God, because they truly will believe Satan to be God. Their preachers and doctrines are leading them to believe so.
"Measure the temple", is referring to the religious form, and all Satan's followers are to be measured for destruction. Though the inner part is destroyed, the Gentile part of the temple will be left standing. This part includes much of the Christian world, because they still think they are Gentile.
We see the time period of this rule of Satan is forty two months. Again, all time dealing with Satan and his children are given in months. Don't get anxious about this three an a half year period, because we read in Revelation 9:5, 10, that this time is shortened to five months, during Satan's rule.
Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
This chapter will focus on the last three and an half days which brings about the last days before our Lord Jesus Christ's return. The church of God is still here on earth during this period of time. However, the witnesses will be witnessing for the entire thousand two hundred and threescore days during this final period. God is placing these two witnesses on earth for the sole purpose of witnessing for Him. They will warn all of mankind, and the "sackcloth" indicates that this warning of their sins is to be their only mission.
Notice also that the time of the two witnesses witnessing are given in days. These witnesses are of the children of light, and their message is of God. When you compare the forty two months of Antichrist from Daniel 9, with the 1,260 days of the two witnesses, they are the same.
Revelation 11:4 "These are thetwo olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of this earth."
In Zechariah 4:3, 11, and 14, these two witnesses are the "olive trees" that are spoken of there. The "candlesticks" represent the churches, and we saw in Revelation 2, and 3, that there are only two churches, or types of churches that God will respect at the close of this earth age. Those were the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. This is because they knew who the "Kenites" are, and would not allow the false doctrine of the Kenites to come into their churches.
So we see, when Satan the Antichrist is upon the earth, the witnesses for God will be the two witnesses [olive trees]. The churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia and churches that give their type of doctrine, are the "candlesticks". The "elect" will come from those types of churches and also all those saints which understand that doctrine
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