Can someone genuinely want to be saved but not be, as they aren't elect/predestined Explanation

Can someone genuinely want to be saved and repent but not be saved, as they aren't elect/predestined

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 7 70.0%
  • depends

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • don't know

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • this situation can't happen/doesn't make sense

    Votes: 2 20.0%

  • Total voters
    10

_Jordan_

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Having been raised in a Christian home, only recently/ within the past year have I actually wanted to find the answers to a lot of questions - this is relevant as some of the answers to these questions lead to the question I asked above. One of these, you've probably had asked, is whether the bible preaches salvation by works or by grace. certain sceptics would claim this to be a contradiction; Ephesians 2:8 explains that by faith and not of works and James 2:24explains that we are justified by works. My understanding of this as of now is that everyone saved, is saved by grace and evidence of this salvation is seen by good works.

After watching the following video by John piper
he sort of touched on this topic, however to a very deep extent. He talked about Romans 8:13 in the sermon and how if we live by the flesh or we would die(go to hell). John also pointed that this message/warning is in other passages, except easier to hear such, as Hebrews 12:14 were it explains without holiness/sanctification, no one will see god. In my head, I initially thought this was salvations by works, but back to before, it's not; rather it's the sanctification by grace that true believers go through, and it seems very thorough. I could (probably) be wrong but it seems as if true Christians, from this text, must succeed in overcoming sin in their life or there're not really a believer. This also seems a lot like Lordship salvation which apparently is heresy to a lot of people. It also put a lot of concern on me, not that I want to continue in my remaining sin; the complete opposite in fact. The concern came that I still have this remaining and can't seem to overcome it. After studying the issue, nearly everyone says the reason people like me can't overcome sin is due to a misunderstanding of Christ's power; we can't stop and only by the power of the holy spirit is it even possible. I really tried to apply this and also prayed to god a lot to help me, and this has gone on a long time. One question that came to mind is that maybe I'm not actually saved. There was some logic to this as if I wasn't saved, then the holy spirit isn't indwelling within me and this obviously meant that my current/previous/ongoing efforts to kill sin had been just that; my own effort; completely insufficient.

If this were true then this would mean I had never been saved all this time and I am a false convert and simply just intellectually understand but have no actual saving faith, just an acknowledgement. From this prospective Gods will becomes very scary as I believe that God the Father choices everyone who will be saved, but despite this thought pattern, I still genuinely want to be saved and may even be. Above anything this question comes from assurance problems.

I agree with John Piper when he says that behind every discontentment there is some sort of deception. I greatly assume that in my situation anyway there has to be some misunderstanding somewhere - which may even make the question illogical, but I hope you can at least see were it came from and any help to answer it would be great. Thank you very much for your time reading this.
 

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Well, for one, your question says:

"Can someone genuinely want to be saved and repent but not be saved, as they aren't elect/predestined?"


Which forces us to equivocate between being part of the elect and predestination to election. There are no poll options that allow us to disagree with this equivocation.
 
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I didn't answer the poll either - you're asking if God would slam the door in the face of someone who comes to Him, just because that person was not "elect"?

No. That won't happen.

The rest of your post seems to be concerned with the idea that if one struggles with sin, one must not be "saved" / not "have the Holy Spirit".

I would say that having to struggle against sin ought not come as a surprise to any of us. When one is newly converted, it tends to be a wonderful time, and it MAY be that conscious sin is easily avoided. Or it may be that the person still struggles mightily with certain temptations. That is an individual situation, depending on what kinds of effects sin has had on the person up to that point. Neither "proves" anything as far as "being saved".

Where one goes from there is individual as well. But I can tell you this. Even if a person no longer is tempted to steal, or to lie, or never lusts, and so on -- when compared with a Holy God - and when one's thoughts and inclinations are examined in that light - one ALWAYS falls short, and this should not cause despair. We make efforts to avoid sin, and when we happen to fail, we ask forgiveness, get up, and make more efforts to avoid sin. Lather, rinse, repeat. It is an ongoing cycle.

The closer to God we get, the more we see our own sinfulness - so we are never "perfect" ... if we think we are, we either misunderstand, or we are in prideful delusion.
 
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_Jordan_

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Well, for one, your question says:

"Can someone genuinely want to be saved and repent but not be saved, as they aren't elect/predestined?"


Which forces us to equivocate between being part of the elect and predestination to election. There are no poll options that allow us to disagree with this equivocation.
I understand, I too think it's a loaded question rooted in misunderstanding. Sorry for this, I literally made an account here about 10 minutes ago and made a discussion post first, then I seen the poll thing and thought "sure". Read the full post to see where I was coming from. In reality, I assume this is nothing more than a hypothetical which can't exist; at least I hope it is. I just wanted someone to walk me through the question, based on the long post I put up.
 
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Winken

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One question that came to mind is that maybe I'm not actually saved. There was some logic to this as if I wasn't saved, then the holy spirit isn't indwelling within me and this obviously meant that my current/previous/ongoing efforts to kill sin had been just that; my own effort; completely insufficient. If this were true then this would mean I had never been saved all this time and I am a false convert and simply just intellectually understand but have no actual saving faith, just an acknowledgement. From this prospective Gods will becomes very scary as I believe that God the Father choices everyone who will be saved, but despite this thought pattern, I still genuinely want to be saved and may even be. Above anything this question comes from assurance problems.

I'm glad you are here and asking these questions. The Bible is your source, and it is quite clear: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved. Follow this path: John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, Romans 10:8-13. Do you believe that? To believe is to place your trust in His promise: Believe, receive. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. God offers the free gift, no strings attached. You respond, in faith believing.

Once you've done that, be grateful. Walk in newness of life. Give God the glory.... give Him thanks.
 
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_Jordan_

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I'm glad you are here and asking these questions. The Bible is your source, and it is quite clear: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved. Follow this path: John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, Romans 10:8-13. Do you believe that? To believe is to place your trust in His promise: Believe, receive. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. God offers the free gift, no strings attached. You respond, in faith believing.

Once you've done that, be grateful. Walk in newness of life. Give God the glory.... give Him thanks.
Thank you for the reply. yes I do believe that, but in believing this, I see how bad I am; this one sin in particular. I know even if I could get it under control this still could never save me, but it's habitual and difently isn't walking in the spirit, rather walking in the flesh. Romans 8:13 sticks out to me in this situation, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" God promises to sanctify us too and From this, I was getting a worried about my assurance simply based on the fact that so many people claim to be Christian but aren't. The bible tells us it's by the fruits you will know them (not that these fruits/acts justify us, but that they are evidence that true faith is at work). Maybe I'm in error in my thought as I am assuming god must cleanse me from this sin completely now? I don't now, think I need to go back to the basics; I'm a little confused
 
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Winken

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Thank you for the reply. yes I do believe that, but in believing this, I see how bad I am; this one sin in particular. I know even if I could get it under control this still could never save me, but it's habitual and difently isn't walking in the spirit, rather walking in the flesh. Romans 8:13 sticks out to me in this situation, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" God promises to sanctify us too and From this, I was getting a worried about my assurance simply based on the fact that so many people claim to be Christian but aren't. The bible tells us it's by the fruits you will know them (not that these fruits/acts justify us, but that they are evidence that true faith is at work). Maybe I'm in error in my thought as I am assuming god must cleanse me from this sin completely now? I don't now, think I need to go back to the basics; I'm a little confused

I see how bad I am on a daily basis. We all have a sinful nature that intrudes in our Christian walk far too often. Paul says that if we live after the flesh, we'll die. He is indicating that one who does not receive Jesus as Savior will be eternally separated from God. He isn't saying that you must live sinlessly 24/7/365 in order to maintain salvation. Salvation is a free gift that will never be withdrawn.
 
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_Jordan_

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I didn't answer the poll either - you're asking if God would slam the door in the face of someone who comes to Him, just because that person was not "elect"?

No. That won't happen.

The rest of your post seems to be concerned with the idea that if one struggles with sin, one must not be "saved" / not "have the Holy Spirit".

I would say that having to struggle against sin ought not come as a surprise to any of us. When one is newly converted, it tends to be a wonderful time, and it MAY be that conscious sin is easily avoided. Or it may be that the person still struggles mightily with certain temptations. That is an individual situation, depending on what kinds of effects sin has had on the person up to that point. Neither "proves" anything as far as "being saved".

Where one goes from there is individual as well. But I can tell you this. Even if a person no longer is tempted to steal, or to lie, or never lusts, and so on -- when compared with a Holy God - and when one's thoughts and inclinations are examined in that light - one ALWAYS falls short, and this should not cause despair. We make efforts to avoid sin, and when we happen to fail, we ask forgiveness, get up, and make more efforts to avoid sin. Lather, rinse, repeat. It is an ongoing cycle.

The closer to God we get, the more we see our own sinfulness - so we are never "perfect" ... if we think we are, we either misunderstand, or we are in prideful delusion.
Thank you so much for the reply, much needed and I agree completely with all you said! It is just my current situation has been going on for a long time and appears to be habitual which seems more like walking in the flesh than the spirit. Is it enough for me to hate it, i want to stop so much but i fail so often it makes me wonder if the spirit dwells in me and is working in me or am i just a false convert.
 
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Winken

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You said that you believe those scriptures that I posted. Therefore, you cannot possibly be a "false" convert.

The Spirit is working in you. He is asking you to walk in faith, believing that He loves you and wants you to listen. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. You got that strength when you were saved. It doesn't go away, it falters. When you falter, go to 1 John 1:9. That's not about getting saved again, it is about your fellowship. Your habitual sin interrupts your fellowship ....... it does not remove your salvation.
 
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_Jordan_

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You said that you believe those scriptures that I posted. Therefore, you cannot possibly be a "false" convert.

The Spirit is working in you. He is asking you to walk in faith, believing that He loves you and wants you to listen. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. You got that strength when you were saved. It doesn't go away, it falters. When you falter, go to 1 John 1:9. That's not about getting saved again, it is about your fellowship. Your habitual sin interrupts your fellowship ....... it does not remove your salvation.
Thank you for this, very helpful and I appreciate it very much! I suppose I've over thought a lot of things and forgot to release some very important truths. just remembered Philippines 1:6 which is also helpful for any concern I still have, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Thank you very much. God bless :)
 
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Chicken Little

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everyone who asked and meaning it will be saved .. be they his family or just street people because the family wouldn't come. it didn't matter if they are
predestined or not or whatever.
it only matter if you overcome by his definitions.
But the predestined part has to do with Office or inheritances gifts and positions / rewards/ promises .. . so an example.

OK so like Eve there is a promise that women will crush the serpent heads that is not talking about just Mary.. . what we are not getting there is both the righteous woman and the unrighteous woman riding the beast in REV is that of their own free will , and by their own free wheels.. they will accomplish his will and together will crush the enemy . that is crush is predestined to happen . and we will still accomplish his promises no matter which way we choose to do it.
if we all choose good or bad matters not to it happening just as he said.



some it will take just a minute "as though by fire" to be purified ..
but that is exactly what everyone who overcomes before that day must go through too , his holy fire, his purifying breath that rebuilds us and tears us down brick by brick, overcoming lie by lie .
to choose the hard way now , through pain and carrying through by his and our cross ..
so if you want to be saved you have the choice to do it fast and ugly later or slow now . but slow and working with him by your free will now gives you also time to earn rewards. not salvation! but a better rewards by overcoming now and by doing the will of the father now.
this example of late fast and ugly would be Samson and the example of slow and deep and wide with Big rewards.. king David, Abraham and Joseph .
 
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topcare

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Having been raised in a Christian home, only recently/ within the past year have I actually wanted to find the answers to a lot of questions - this is relevant as some of the answers to these questions lead to the question I asked above. One of these, you've probably had asked, is whether the bible preaches salvation by works or by grace. certain sceptics would claim this to be a contradiction; Ephesians 2:8 explains that by faith and not of works and James 2:24explains that we are justified by works. My understanding of this as of now is that everyone saved, is saved by grace and evidence of this salvation is seen by good works.

After watching the following video by John piper
he sort of touched on this topic, however to a very deep extent. He talked about Romans 8:13 in the sermon and how if we live by the flesh or we would die(go to hell). John also pointed that this message/warning is in other passages, except easier to hear such, as Hebrews 12:14 were it explains without holiness/sanctification, no one will see god. In my head, I initially thought this was salvations by works, but back to before, it's not; rather it's the sanctification by grace that true believers go through, and it seems very thorough. I could (probably) be wrong but it seems as if true Christians, from this text, must succeed in overcoming sin in their life or there're not really a believer. This also seems a lot like Lordship salvation which apparently is heresy to a lot of people. It also put a lot of concern on me, not that I want to continue in my remaining sin; the complete opposite in fact. The concern came that I still have this remaining and can't seem to overcome it. After studying the issue, nearly everyone says the reason people like me can't overcome sin is due to a misunderstanding of Christ's power; we can't stop and only by the power of the holy spirit is it even possible. I really tried to apply this and also prayed to god a lot to help me, and this has gone on a long time. One question that came to mind is that maybe I'm not actually saved. There was some logic to this as if I wasn't saved, then the holy spirit isn't indwelling within me and this obviously meant that my current/previous/ongoing efforts to kill sin had been just that; my own effort; completely insufficient.

If this were true then this would mean I had never been saved all this time and I am a false convert and simply just intellectually understand but have no actual saving faith, just an acknowledgement. From this prospective Gods will becomes very scary as I believe that God the Father choices everyone who will be saved, but despite this thought pattern, I still genuinely want to be saved and may even be. Above anything this question comes from assurance problems.

I agree with John Piper when he says that behind every discontentment there is some sort of deception. I greatly assume that in my situation anyway there has to be some misunderstanding somewhere - which may even make the question illogical, but I hope you can at least see were it came from and any help to answer it would be great. Thank you very much for your time reading this.

I nor many Traditional Christians could vote in your poll because we do not know man's heart. Now many Protestants assume they can. I am not sure you will find much agreement in the Traditional Theology forum with Piper because he is just not Traditional and we can be never 100 percent we can only fight the good fight and race the good race and work out our salvation with fear and trembling before God.
 
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I will say that our view of salvation (I am Orthodox, and this is generally true of the Traditional Church) ... is not a simple one-moment transaction. Here, say this prayer, you're now signed, sealed, and practically delivered, no matter what happens. Scripture does not support such easy-believism.

However, we also do not "work" for or "earn" our salvation, which is a common misunderstanding of what we do teach.

Salvation is a process. It is a race we run, as Paul says. We fight the good fight, we run the race, we are CHANGED back into the likeness of Christ, being changed from glory to glory, so that we are made true sons and daughters.

One who simply speaks a few words, and even "believes" cannot then turn their back and go on their way with assurance. Scripture tells us that even the demons believe, and tremble. They know exactly who Christ is, and that does not "save" them.

But it is not something God wants to make difficult or hide from us. He desires that all men come to repentance and be saved. He loves you and WANTS you to be saved, even more than you want it. We cooperate with Him, allowing the Holy Spirit to work God's grace within us, and change us. And in the end, we will be judged by whether we are like Christ. Read the passage in Revelation about judgment - did we love others (and in so doing love Christ)? Are we sheep, or are we goats?

God doesn't just throw us away because we fall down in sin, even again and again, even in the same sins. But what happens when we do that? Do we excuse ourselves, saying it's ok because we are "already saved anyway"? Do we think we can hide it from God, or do we love our sin more than we love God? I'm not talking about facing extreme temptation, and struggling. The struggle can purify us, through the acting grace of the Holy Spirit, even if we fall. But as I said, we ask forgiveness, get back up, and struggle again.

It's very important to remember that no matter how much we sin, God's mercy is greater than our sins. And no matter how many wonderful "works" we might do, they will never save us - it only matters if we bear the likeness of Christ within ourselves.

Hating your sin is a good sign. The Church also offers tools, and teaching, to help us deal with these things. It does of course depend on what the exact nature of the struggle is (and please don't tell me - I'm not asking). But generally speaking, there is a point where it's much easier to cut it off (before even interacting with it in our minds). Not always - there are SOME things that are especially difficult to overcome. This is where we seek the help of a priest, or spiritual father, who can offer great help and wisdom in rooting out sins.
 
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Thank you so much for the reply, much needed and I agree completely with all you said! It is just my current situation has been going on for a long time and appears to be habitual which seems more like walking in the flesh than the spirit. Is it enough for me to hate it, i want to stop so much but i fail so often it makes me wonder if the spirit dwells in me and is working in me or am i just a false convert.

Jordan,
The very fact that you see it as sin is showing that you are on the journey to salvation. To make an absurd analogy, let's say that you are born with a third arm; but you live in a world without light. To you the third arm is just the way you were made and seems like a handy thing to have. Then suddenly someone shines a light on your world and you see that you are the only person with a third arm. You recognize the abnormality of it and suddenly you start seeing it for what it truly is. Sin, particularly habitual sin, has probably seemed like just a part of your life up to now. You did not see it as sin and so did not have any reason to avoid it. Now God is shining his light on you and your viewpoint has changed. This can't help but have you questioning what you believed before. This can cause a loss of self-esteem; because you no longer are allowed to ignore your faults.

The good news is that all of us have experienced this and are still fighting the battle. Some of the greatest saints in Christianity have written about this feeling of darkness and lack of self-worth.

I think that it is easier for us to change our beliefs than our habits. If I could give you some advice, I would say continue to pray but realize that we must work with God in this endeavor. Habits can be changed; but it is a long process. The first thing is to really look at yourself and analyze when the habitual behaviour kicks in. There is usually a trigger, something in your life that pulls you into the sinful behaviour. To use an alcoholic as an example, maybe passing a bar that he likes or maybe he always had an evening cocktail. Avoiding the triggers will help you avoid the behavior. The other thing to watch is if this desire seems strongest when you are tired or stressed out. At these times our spiritual defenses can be low and we fall. If you can recognize these times, then you can call for God's help then. This will allow you to consciously turn away from sin and that is a great feeling. Temptation is as old as Adam. We all live with it. We cannot be conscientious objectors in this battle for it is fought within us. So perhaps you are worrying too much about the destination and not focusing on what you can do this moment.

May God's Grace be always with you,
Byron
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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God created us, we are His, He only desires that we all be saved; so we are all predestined to salvation (He did send His Son Jesus Christ to die for us all). We, however, are all "Prodigal Sons" and rebel because God gave us free will. Like the Prodigal son, if we repent we will be saved. I also believe that the stain of original sin makes it impossible for us to decide or choose to follow God; only to choose to defy God. This is where the third person of the trinity comes in. I like how Martin Luther explains it in the small Catechism; in his explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles Creed:

The Third Article.

Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?--Answer.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.
 
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