The Trinity

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
when did you look at the entire passage? I missed that post. You didn't even look at the entire sentence. In fact, here is the sentence.....
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Right, God the Father exalted someone who isn't God, Jesus Christ, thus the writer distinguished between God and one who isn't God in the passage.

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
and the passage currently on the table, in the context of the biblical discussion as well as the complete sentence in question, shows Jesus having the same authority as God...iow's same power, same authority, etc. It is only when we remove context and word study that we can even pretend to come to an understanding of non trinity proportions here.

Yes, Jesus had the authority someone else gave Him. If Jesus was God, He would not need to be given authority....but since He wasn't God, God the Father (Jesus and Mary's God and Father) gave Him authority.

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
Right, God the Father exalted someone who isn't God, Jesus Christ, thus the writer distinguished between God and one who isn't God in the passage.

and yet the word used to describe Jesus means "God the Messiah" and to discussion is about His God nature...so what you want us to believe is that Jesus is equal to God but not God....how exactly does that work? Jesus Himself didn't think He was equal to God, but God, you know the jealous God who says not to have any other God's before Him, puts Jesus equal with Him? This doesn't seem like the God of the bible at all. Please show how this fits what we know of God, to put another equal to God but to tell us not to put any other god in that place

at least make your argument sound convincing.

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
Yes, Jesus had the authority someone else gave Him. If Jesus was God, He would not need to be given authority....but since He wasn't God, God the Father (Jesus and Mary's God and Father) gave Him authority.

Hum...Jesus is the one who limited His authority...but again, make your argument sound convincing at the very least. God tells us not to put any God's before He, yet here He is according to you putting another god before Him for us to worship. Why would He contradict Himself like that? Make it convincing at least...to be convincing you need to show some scripture that challenges God's command to not put any gods before Him....

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
and yet the word used to describe Jesus means "God the Messiah" and to discussion is about His God nature...so what you want us to believe is that Jesus is equal to God but not God....how exactly does that work? Jesus Himself didn't think He was equal to God, but God, you know the jealous God who says not to have any other God's before Him, puts Jesus equal with Him? This doesn't seem like the God of the bible at all. Please show how this fits what we know of God, to put another equal to God but to tell us not to put any other god in that place

at least make your argument sound convincing.

The word does not mean Jesus is God or Paul would have identified Jesus as God as he did with God the Father. God anointed Jesus, God did not anoint God as you would like your rewrite to say. There was an anointer, God the Father and there was an anointee, Jesus the Christ. God doesn't need to be anointed, but Jesus did. That's because he's not God.

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
The word does not mean Jesus is God or Paul would have identified Jesus as God as he did with God the Father.

man you are dense...the word study shows that any time kyrios is used to describe Jesus it always means "God the Messiah" that is exactly what word study shows us....not sure why you don't get that other than willful blindness.

God anointed Jesus, God did not anoint God as you would like your rewrite to say.

I asked you a question about your interpretation in respect for something I might have missed and you go off on me rather than answer the question...why so ungodly of a response? Especially from someone who claims to be understanding through the HS.

There was an anointer, God the Father and there was an anointee, Jesus the Christ. God doesn't need to be anointed, but Jesus did. That's because he's not God.

that wasn't the question....the question was why would God who tells us to put no other god before Him, lift Jesus to the same position as Him if Jesus is not God?

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
man you are dense...the word study shows that any time kyrios is used to describe Jesus it always means "God the Messiah" that is exactly what word study shows us....not sure why you don't get that other than willful blindness.

No, it does not mean "God the messiah" or Paul would have identified Jesus as God just as he identified the Father as God.

I asked you a question about your interpretation in respect for something

You ignore just about every post I make, not choosing to comment on it. For example, in my last post I pointed out that God did not anoint God, yet God did anoint Jesus. This is only one of the problems if we embrace your personal rewrite of the passage. There's more

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
that wasn't the question....the question was why would God who tells us to put no other god before Him, lift Jesus to the same position as Him if Jesus is not God?

God lifting Jesus to an exalted position is the business of God. He did it, we accept it.

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
No, it does not mean "God the messiah" or Paul would have identified Jesus as God just as he identified the Father as God.

so you refuse context and word study...how do you plan on knowing truth if you can't allow either context or word study to influence your beliefs? I just don't get it, I want to know all of God I can know, not the God I am told He is or that I want Him to be.

You ignore just about every post I make, not choosing to comment on it. For example, in my last post I pointed out that God did not anoint God, yet God did anoint Jesus. This is only one of the problems if we embrace your personal rewrite of the passage. There's more

Now, how did I possibly ignore your post when it is this very claim that spurred my question about why God, you know the God that tells us to not put anyone above Him, would put a non god Jesus equal to HIm....see that question is a direct response to your claims, not an ignoring of them...so how about trying to answer?

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
so you refuse context and word study...how do you plan on knowing truth if you can't allow either context or word study to influence your beliefs? I just don't get it, I want to know all of God I can know, not the God I am told He is or that I want Him to be.

I'm not ignoring context or word study. In both context and word usage, there is only one God in the passage.....God the Father.

Now, how did I possibly ignore your post when it is this very claim that spurred my question about why God, you know the God that tells us to not put anyone above Him, would put a non god Jesus equal to HIm....see that question is a direct response to your claims, not an ignoring of them...so how about trying to answer?

Do you believe God anointed God? That God empowered God?

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
God lifting Jesus to an exalted position is the business of God. He did it, we accept it.

But it is counter to what God commands...scripture says that God is not a liar, that He can't tell a lie, yet here you are calling Him a liar...why would you do that? I don't get it, seriously, why would you think you are justified to call God a liar when He says not to put any gods before Him then suggest He puts Jesus an non god in His place? That is making God out to be a liar.

Look, I can overlook you refusing context. I can overlook your refusing word study. But I can't overlook you calling God a liar.....

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
I'm not ignoring context or word study. In both context and word usage, there is only one God in the passage.....God the Father.

the word study shows that when speaking of Jesus Kyrios always means God the Messiah and you refuse that, so you refuse word study.

As to context, you refused that too....showed you that many times over.

Do you believe God anointed God? That God empowered God?

Yep...because God was also fully man, I have shown you this repeatedly. Now, I answered your question, why do you refuse to answer mine?

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
But it is counter to what God commands...scripture says that God is not a liar, that He can't tell a lie, yet here you are calling Him a liar...why would you do that? I don't get it, seriously, why would you think you are justified to call God a liar when He says not to put any gods before Him then suggest He puts Jesus an non god in His place? That is making God out to be a liar.

Look, I can overlook you refusing context. I can overlook your refusing word study. But I can't overlook you calling God a liar.....

I'm not calling God a liar. I'm pointing out that there is one God in the passage in question, and that this one God (God the Father) anointed someone who wasn't God (Jesus the Christ).

razzelflabben · Jul 28, 2015

justlookinla said:
I'm not calling God a liar. I'm pointing out that there is one God in the passage in question, and that this one God (God the Father) anointed someone who wasn't God (Jesus the Christ).

Okay, let's try this another way....are you capable of seeing two sides to any issue? If so, look at both sides, if we interpret it the way I am saying, then there is nothing to reconcile.

If we see it through your opinion, then we have God contradicting Himself. Unless or until you show how to reconcile this, we only have one viable interpretation.

justlookinla · Jul 28, 2015

razzelflabben said:
Okay, let's try this another way....are you capable of seeing two sides to any issue? If so, look at both sides, if we interpret it the way I am saying, then there is nothing to reconcile.

If we see it through your opinion, then we have God contradicting Himself. Unless or until you show how to reconcile this, we only have one viable interpretation.

Through my interpretation there's one God anointing someone who isn't God through yours, there's two...one God anointing another God.

razzelflabben · Jul 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
Through my interpretation there's one God anointing someone who isn't God through yours, there's two...one God anointing another God.

no, we have already been through this....if Jesus is God in the flesh, that is to say God, then God isn't setting anyone above Himself. If, as you say, Jesus isn't God, then in this passage, God is setting someone who isn't God equal to Himself even though we are told not to do that. So again, I ask the question you can't seem to answer...why would God put someone who isn't God equal to Himself when He tells us very clearly not to do such things? It's a simple question....just because you don't like the other version doesn't mean there isn't sense to it. You seem to keep missing that as well.

Look, I am trying to see this whole thing through your eyes, that is why I am asking questions. But you refuse or can't answer the questions asked of your version and the other version answers every single question and what is even more telling, it does so with logic, context, word study, and totality of scripture. Now, you have two choices at this point, you can either answer the questions and in answering them show logic, context, word study, totality of scripture or you can continue on as you are by ignoring all of this including the questions and show your ideas to be nothing more than a story that someone made up and convinced you of as being truth.

I am trying to understand...now, scripture is clear, so I am not going to change my mind, but I would like to have you convince me of your ideas, so that I can at least show a rational way of thinking it out. But you fail to present that rational line of thinking by refusing to answer the questions asked. Show me how this idea of yours fits, show me how to make sense out of God exalting a non God to the position of God even though He is adamantly opposed to that happening. IOW's pretend I can be convinced and show me...if I can find it in scripture I will change my mind just FYI, but since it isn't scriptural at least give me a reason to question trinity.

justlookinla · Jul 29, 2015

razzelflabben said:
no, we have already been through this....if Jesus is God in the flesh, that is to say God, then God isn't setting anyone above Himself. If, as you say, Jesus isn't God, then in this passage, God is setting someone who isn't God equal to Himself even though we are told not to do that. So again, I ask the question you can't seem to answer...why would God put someone who isn't God equal to Himself when He tells us very clearly not to do such things? It's a simple question....just because you don't like the other version doesn't mean there isn't sense to it. You seem to keep missing that as well.

Look, I am trying to see this whole thing through your eyes, that is why I am asking questions. But you refuse or can't answer the questions asked of your version and the other version answers every single question and what is even more telling, it does so with logic, context, word study, and totality of scripture. Now, you have two choices at this point, you can either answer the questions and in answering them show logic, context, word study, totality of scripture or you can continue on as you are by ignoring all of this including the questions and show your ideas to be nothing more than a story that someone made up and convinced you of as being truth.

I am trying to understand...now, scripture is clear, so I am not going to change my mind, but I would like to have you convince me of your ideas, so that I can at least show a rational way of thinking it out. But you fail to present that rational line of thinking by refusing to answer the questions asked. Show me how this idea of yours fits, show me how to make sense out of God exalting a non God to the position of God even though He is adamantly opposed to that happening. IOW's pretend I can be convinced and show me...if I can find it in scripture I will change my mind just FYI, but since it isn't scriptural at least give me a reason to question trinity.

I believe my position is a reasonable one. Start with these simple facts which I've given several times now.

1) Paul specifically identified only one God in the passage.....God the Father. He did not identify Jesus in the same way. If he had wanted to present Jesus as God, he could have easily identified him as he did the Father.

2) Someone anointed someone else who did not have the anointing. If Jesus were God, that would mean that God would have to anoint God with an anointing God didn't have.

razzelflabben · Jul 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
I believe my position is a reasonable one. Start with these simple facts which I've given several times now.

1) Paul specifically identified only one God in the passage.....God the Father. He did not identify Jesus in the same way. If he had wanted to present Jesus as God, he could have easily identified him as he did the Father.

2) Someone anointed someone else who did not have the anointing. If Jesus were God, that would mean that God would have to anoint God with an anointing God didn't have.

so you refuse to answer the question and instead insist on removing good study technique to assert your position, sorry not good enough...it grieves me that we couldn't have a great discussion but ignoring good study technique and refusing to answer questions, simply isn't enough to prove your case.

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2015

str8_TALK said:
Psalm 110:1, whether read from the original Hebrew, Masoretic text, or Greek Septuagint, distinguishes the Most High God from his servant, Jesus Christ. The fact that his verse is referenced over and again in the New Testament gives us the assurance as to its significance and relevance to God's order of things. We do not see Jesus as being "co-equal" to God here or any where else in the Bible. Hebrews 2 is an excellent depiction of the relationship between the Son of God and God Himself and one of the many references to Psalm 110:

Hebrews 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, (Psalm 8:4-5)

“What is man, that You (the one God) are mindful of him,
or the son of man (Jesus Christ), that You (the one God) care for him?

7You (God) made him (Jesus Christ) for a little while lower than the angels;
You (God) have crowned him (Jesus Christ) with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

11 For he who sanctifies (Jesus Christ) and those who are sanctified (believers in Jesus Christ) all have ONE SOURCE. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,

12 saying,

“I (Jesus) will tell of Your (the One God) name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I (Jesus) will sing Your (the One God) praise.” (Psalm 22:22)

13 And again,

“I (Jesus) will put my trust in Him (the One God).” (Psalm 18:2; Isa 8:17; 12:2)

And again,

“Behold, I (Jesus) and the children God has GIVEN me.” (Isaiah 8:18)

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things…

17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

God the Father is the Source of Jesus and everything else. Jesus puts his trust in God. Jesus is our brother (who we are co-heirs with). Jesus is faithful to God. Jesus is a servant of God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not "co-equal" to God.

You are mistaken in the Septuagint the same word κύριος/kurios, i.e. Lord, occurs twice in Ps 110:1. θεὸς/Theos, i.e. God, does not occur in that verse.

Psa 110:1 (109:1) Τῷ Δαυιδ ψαλμός. Εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου, ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου.

razzelflabben · Jul 30, 2015

Der Alter said:
You are mistaken in the Septuagint the same word κύριος/kurios, i.e. Lord, occurs twice in Ps 110:1. θεὸς/Theos, i.e. God, does not occur in that verse.

Psa 110:1 (109:1) Τῷ Δαυιδ ψαλμός. Εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου, ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrios
http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=290542

etc.

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