Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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n2thelight

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Here's your answer. The rapture is a secret only to those in darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.


It being secrete or not was'nt the question,let's try again...What's the purpose of it,the rapture?
 
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BABerean2

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For sure, but they still don't address the souls under the alter issue from Revelation 6.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"- Ezekiel 18:20

Strong's 5315.
nephesh:
a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Well, we know from the verse above that we are made of a body and something else, that Jesus calls a "soul".

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
This seems to be a scene in heaven where John sees "souls" who have been killed if we take the verse literally.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Here the "souls" are active.


Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; John sees Christians standing before Christ. The scene seems to be in heaven.

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Again, these Christians are active.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. These Christians John saw seem to be in heaven.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
These Christians are in the presence of Jesus at the throne of God.

Can you give your interpretation of the last passage above?

 
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Straightshot

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How can you,or anyone else for that matter read scripture and say He comes without warning,when He told us everything that will,and must take place before His return


You just snookered yourself

He will come as a thief does .... no warning ..... at a time you cannot know .... He has not dated the event

So you cannot know .... and you do not

The things that must take place are the very things you refute .... the crowd that you follow says "no" to the many days of His unmitigated unprecedented wrath and judgment that is coming" .... this makes you a scoffer of the last days [2 Peter 3:10]

And I will tell you that when you find yourself in the tribulation during the "things of the period that must take place" you will know that He is at the very brink of His appearing

Does the Lord contradict Himself .... or are you just ignorant and have been deceived by the devil

He tells of a time that you cannot know .... and a time that you will .... not the same

If you want to surf the tribulation, go for it, and just ignore His warning .... He said you must be ready

Why? .... because you do not know when the Thief is coming as you think you do

You are one in darkness [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9]
 
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Dave Watchman

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Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
These Christians are in the presence of Jesus at the throne of God.

Can you give your interpretation of the last passage above?

I could but attempting to explain it to a Preterist would probably present a challenge. Revelation 7 is an apocalyptic prophecy about the 144,000 and what they will be responsible for accomplishing. Rev. 7 begins during the delay we are living in right now. This delay is created when the angel uses the word "until".

“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

This is where I think we are now in the chronology. The sealing of these servants is the next thing to happen before the tribulation begins.
Rev.7 ends after the tribulation is over, with the scene of the numberless multitude before the throne of God. The numberless multitude is not the 144,000, they are all the people who made it through the tribulation by not taking the mark of the beast.

"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

They shall hunger no more, <-we have not yet had the tribulation famine.

neither thirst any more; <-wormwood has not yet poisoned our water.

neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.<-the fourth bowl sun has not yet scorched our skin.


Martyred souls are not currently living under the alter. Abel's blood didn't really cry out from the ground. The numberless multitude has not yet made it to Heaven to be comforted by Jesus because they've not yet suffered through the end time tribulation. Our Appointed Time of the End hasn't happened yet.

Sorry to be the breaker of bad news.

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory."
 
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JLB777

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"Show us where in His prophetic word it is mentioned that there is 2 Second Coming of Jesus yet to come ?"


Read post 229 RB ... the Lord is only going to intervene in the fairs of humanity .... once

Your "twice" trickery is moot

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

When He comes and appears a second time, He will resurrect and rapture those who are His, so that we have new glorified bodies that will never die and we will be with Him and see Him.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

When He is revealed we will see Him as He is.

When He is revealed, we shall be like Him.

All those who are His, will be gathered unto Him, at His coming.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23


ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE, at his coming...

We shall all see Him...

He will come and appear a SECOND TIME!!!

JLB
 
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BABerean2

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I could but attempting to explain it to a Preterist would probably present a challenge.

Since I do not believe that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the Book of Revelation is already fulfilled, why in the world would you think I am a Preterist?

I totally reject Alcazar's doctrine.

.
 
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Straightshot

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"His Coming" .... this event needs to be rendered correctly

He will intervene into the affairs of humanity and will execute many things over time .... the details are given in His prophetic word

Some of the events will take place before He appears

He is here now and watching .... you just cannot see Him

There is a timing difference between His initial intervention .... and His appearance at the ending
 
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JLB777

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He will come as a thief does .... no warning ..... at a time you cannot know .... He has not dated the event

He will come as a thief in the night for the world, those in darkness, and sudden destruction will come upon them.

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4


Jesus gave His Church many signs that would occur before His return.


JLB
 
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Marvin Knox

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If you can read the scripture I posted above and come up with a pretrib rapture, nothing I could ever say can get you to change your mind.
I didn't say that the scriptures you posted taught a pre-tribulation rapture.

I said that they did not prove a post-tribulation rapture.

You posted them in an attempt to prove that there could be no rapture before the tribulation.

They proved no such thing.

God's taking of Enoch, Elijah, Paul, John or anyone else to Heaven (either temporarily or permanently) doesn't negate the truths associated with Christ's physical coming to the earth to reign in glory.

Christ's appearances to John, Paul, Stephen or anyone else don't negate the truths about every eye seeing Him when He comes again.

The rapture of Christ's church (if it be true) wouldn't change any of the concepts associated with His 2nd physical coming to the earth to reign.

There is no reason that there cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture that can be found in scripture.

There are, on the other hand, plenty of reasons to believe that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture.
 
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BABerean2

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The rapture of Christ's church (if it be true) wouldn't change any of the concepts associated with His 2nd physical coming to the earth to reign.

There is no reason that there cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture that can be found in scripture.

There are, on the other hand, plenty of reasons to believe that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

Your chief problem is finding a 7 year stay in heaven between 1st Thess. chapter 4 and chapter 5.
It is not in the text.

Remember when Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians there were no chapters or verses.



1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The text says Christ descends. It says nothing about Him returning to heaven.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In ancient times people would often go out to meet a returning ruler and escort him back to the city.
This is what we see happening at Christ's "Parousia".

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
The word "but" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
This places the event in chapter 4 on the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
This verse connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.

There is zero indication in the text of a 7 year stay in heaven between these two chapters.
This 7 year stay in heaven can only be produced by importing it from another place in scripture.


The verses below reveal the "thief in the night" phrase that occurs on the Day of the Lord.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The famous "Rapture" passage of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 occurs at the beginning of Christ's 2nd Coming.
 
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Bro.T

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Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."


This really can throw some people, when they think that this is talking about no rewards after death. This whole book is talking about only the flesh body, the man that lives under the sun. When any person dies, they are through with this old flesh body, and it has only one purpose, to be placed in the ground to decay.

The body returns to dust. The precious person that you once knew has departed that physical body at death, and went immediately to be with the Father that sent that soul into the embryo at conception. It was the soul and the spirit of the person that you loved, and not the flesh.

When you go to see the final viewing of that person's body, the soul is missing and you can feel the emptiness of spirit that once was there, as you view the body that is in the process of decay. To the Christian, this is a time of rejoicing, for that person's soul is in the presence of the Father, and it is a time for rewards. Though living in the flesh is not considered the same for all people, but it is a requirement of God for each soul.

It was in God plan that all souls must be born of woman, and many times people misquote John 3:3 as to being "born again", which should read, "born from above". You are born from above when your soul enters the embryo at birth. We all have to live in the flesh and be tested in the flesh.
There is one group that was going to try to get around that, and it is discussed in Jude 1-6.

Rather then have their soul born through woman, they left their habitation, in the heavenlies against God's will, and took woman to seduce. This is also talked about in Genesis 6:1-8. Therefore, by side stepping God's plan they are already condemned to death of their soul. They never did have the flesh to die, and their death is the death of their soul and spirit.
So flesh is flesh, and once that flesh is dead there is no more use for it, it is left to return to the dust.


Its also written in the scriptures Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Let’s go to the Prophet Job and see if he knows anything about this subject. Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. 2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

Remember what Solomon said? Let's take another look. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Job said basically, "Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble". Each day you walk with God there is a war going on within your mind. Trying your best to keep this flesh body under control, trying to walk in the Lord's law, that is the trouble you encounter. If some one says it is easy that's a lie. You must walk in his power (His Word), to stay strong. You have a powerful adversary, and who is that? You. Pay close attention!

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

So no one in heaven at this time, even the prophets Job knew this in his time. But in our time people force there mind to believe different.
 
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Bro.T

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Here's your answer. The rapture is a secret only to those in darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Theres no rapture, just the resurrections the Bible speaks of.
 
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Straightshot

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"Your chief problem is finding a 7 year stay in heaven between 1st Thess. chapter 4 and chapter 5.
It is not in the text"


Some people actually read the entire Bible and do not carve out and ignore scripture that they do not like .... the 2520 days are there

All related scripture must be included in the study for a complete and accurate rendering

 
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Ronald

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nice concepts but just way too tiny..
but the Rabbi is only calling Judah and some levi (not all Israel , see Jacobs 's blessings) and it is Judah's right to be the last to be "Saved" but also in that the last to be purified too ...and to those who overcome will have the right to turnout the lights on this age. maybe read Jacobs blessings to his sons again..
Tiny? A prophecy and covenant with Israel about the Jews finally getting their veils lifted off their blindness and coming to know the Lord is not tiny.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Your chief problem is finding a 7 year stay in heaven between 1st Thess. chapter 4 and chapter 5.
It is not in the text.
You're right.
It's not in the text.

But you are wrong in that there is plenty of room for it in the passage.
In ancient times people would often go out to meet a returning ruler and escort him back to the city.
This is what we see happening at Christ's "Parousia".
You're right.
That's exactly what we see pictured in scripture.
There is zero indication in the text of a 7 year stay in heaven between these two chapters.
This 7 year stay in heaven can only be produced by importing it from another place in scripture.
You're right.

We call that "systematic" theology.

It's based on the concept of letting scripture interpret scripture.
 
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JLB777

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Your chief problem is finding a 7 year stay in heaven between 1st Thess. chapter 4 and chapter 5.
It is not in the text.

Remember when Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians there were no chapters or verses.



Amen to this.

I would further add...

Let them find a 7 year stay in heaven between the Resurrection, which comes first, and the Rapture in verse 17.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, whereby the dead in Christ are GATHERED TOGETHER in the air to meet the Lord.


... caught up together with them, is irrefutable.


JLB
 
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