Catholics: Is Jesus present in the Eucharist at Lutheran and Anglican Churches?

Tangible · Jul 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
Have you read the Catholic Lutheran Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification?

JDDJ: A quivering mass of gelatinous words thrown out upon a table for anyone to make them say anything they want. Confessional Lutherans reject the JDDJ out of hand. Even the RCC found it necessary to immediately distance themselves from it.

Open Heart · Jul 15, 2015

Tangible said:
Even the RCC found it necessary to immediately distance themselves from it.

Really? Is that why the JDDJ is contained on the Vatican website?

Albion · Jul 15, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Pope Pius straight up declared the Anglican communion null and void on all sacraments and rites._

It's barely worth mentioning, but he didn't declare the Anglican Communion anything. He declared Anglican orders invalid. Maybe that's what you were thinking.

Tangible · Jul 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
Really? Is that why the JDDJ is contained on the Vatican website?

http://web.archive.org/web/20001004...tuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

Open Heart · Jul 15, 2015

Tangible said:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001004...tuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

I read it. The Catholic church is wanting to finetune edit the document to bring it in line with concerns other than the main idea. However, the Catholic Church does not back off the stance that Initial Justification is by faith alone, and that works procede from grace.

Berean777 · Jul 15, 2015

Justified by faith by the blood of Christ (baptism)
Sanctified by the works of the Holy Ghost (fire)

John 3:5
Salvation = water (Christ) + fire (Holy Ghost)

Tangible · Jul 16, 2015

Open Heart said:
I read it. The Catholic church is wanting to finetune edit the document to bring it in line with concerns other than the main idea. However, the Catholic Church does not back off the stance that Initial Justification is by faith alone, and that works procede from grace.

The problem with the JDDJ is that there is an assumption that Lutherans and Catholics mean exactly the same things when they say "by faith alone" and "from grace" when they do not. That's what I meant by gelatinous words. Terms are not carefully defined in the JDDJ, nor could they be if the endeavor were to be successful. So they just skipped that part. That's why the JDDJ is ultimately meaningless.

Open Heart · Jul 16, 2015

Tangible said:
The problem with the JDDJ is that there is an assumption that Lutherans and Catholics mean exactly the same things when they say "by faith alone" and "from grace" when they do not. That's what I meant by gelatinous words. Terms are not carefully defined in the JDDJ, nor could they be if the endeavor were to be successful. So they just skipped that part. That's why the JDDJ is ultimately meaningless.

And you think YOU know what they mean? That after decades of dialogue, they don't think they know what each other meant?

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 16, 2015

Tangible said:
The problem with the JDDJ is that there is an assumption that Lutherans and Catholics mean exactly the same things when they say "by faith alone" and "from grace" when they do not. That's what I meant by gelatinous words. Terms are not carefully defined in the JDDJ, nor could they be if the endeavor were to be successful. So they just skipped that part. That's why the JDDJ is ultimately meaningless.

This is why the LCMS/LCC/ILC and the Catholic Church have been and still are having independent dialogue. We know where we agree (that is stated clearly in the Augsburg Confession) but we are trying to understand our differences so that we can have an on going meaningful dialogue, that will bear real fruit. The JDDJ, as fruit goes, had a very short shelf life.

Open Heart said:
And you think YOU know what they mean? That after decades of dialogue, they don't think they know what each other meant?

Since both sides of the declaration felt it necessary to make explanatory and qualifying statements after the fact, I would say there were instances where they were using similar words but thinking slightly differently about what those words meant.

It was a great photo op though!

Today, considering the direction taken with theological matters, social matters and ethical matters by those groups who were in discussion with with the CC there is an ever widening rift between these Churches and the Catholic Church.

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 23, 2015

Not Anglican churches. According to them anyway, the Catholic Church nullified all their rites in 1850.
And not Lutheran churches either, at least that's what I would suppose. The Church only merits such things to churches with a lineage of apostolic succession or in full communion, even though there is some sort of bridge of friendship that's recently formed between the two.

Albion · Jul 29, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Not Anglican churches. According to them anyway, the Catholic Church nullified all their rites in 1850.
And not Lutheran churches either, at least that's what I would suppose. The Church only merits such things to churches with a lineage of apostolic succession or in full communion, even though there is some sort of bridge of friendship that's recently formed between the two.

That's correct. I don't see how the question of the OP can be answered in the affirmative, unless the Catholic respondent departs from the official position of his church to express a personal opinion.

Rick Otto · Aug 19, 2015

Open Heart said:
And you think YOU know what they mean? That after decades of dialogue, they don't think they know what each other meant?

That they don't makes it even more plausible he does.
They are educated out of their common sense.

TheNorwegian · Aug 19, 2015

There are plans for a joint Lutheran/Roman Catholic eucharist next year. I have not studied the details of this, but here is a link to a Vatican artcile on this page: http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201..._plan_joint_ecumenical_commemoration_/1118708

Catholics: Is Jesus present in the Eucharist at Lutheran and Anglican Churches?

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