The Gospel (moved from Philosophy)

Hello everyone. I am new here, so I'm not really sure if this is the appropriate place to post or not.

I would like to discuss the Gospel that has been revealed to us through the Scriptures. I believe that God will Reconcile all things back to himself, and teach all men Righteousness.

First, I would like to provide this verse and discuss exactly what Paul is telling us:

"Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." Ephesians 1:8

I look forward to meeting you all. I hope we can have a fun and respectful conversation. Thank you and God bless you.

Christus Discipulus said:

To be more clear, I would suggest that you properly cite the Bible verse(s) that you have quoted and give the Bible translation.

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I'm sorry my friend. I did write that this passage is Ephesians 1:8, but to clarify, it is Ephesians 1:8-12.

I will be using the Authorized King James Version with either a Strong's Concordance, or other occurrences in Scripture. If you would like, I can write KJV after each verse. If it appears that whole verses are misinterpreted, I will write out the Greek and provide a link to biblehub.com with an interlinear of that specific passage.

Thank you for the reply. God bless you my new friend.

Christus Discipulus said:

Thanks. The only thing that I would add to your commentary is that Christ has complete authority and rules even now having ascended to the right hand of God the Father. The gathering to Himself is a past, present and future event.

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I agree 100%. Yeshua has full authority, and all things have been given to Him by our Father.

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
ALL things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:25-27

If all things have been given to Yeshua, then what does He mean when He says:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that ALL of which he hath given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39 KJV

If we tie this verse with what Paul says to Timothy:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, AND to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:3-6

And if we believe God when He says:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9-11 KJV

Then is it not true that at some time in the future, every man they has ever lived will learn righteousness and come to the knowledge of the truth?

Thank you brother.

pshun2404 said:

The key to the who (the we the us) is in the final verse you quoted...it is those who "first trusted in Christ". Evangelicals after the Reformed view tend to stop at verse 12 where Paul summarizes all this in the following verses which read:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

When God makes known the word of truth, the gospel...the Spirit is there urging us (because God prefers all would repent and come to salvation, but alas they will to not...Romans 1:20)...because of Christ's finished work, this salvation (by grace because God owes no man anything for all have sinned) is available to all...but people like being lord of their own life and doing what is right in their own eyes (deciding good and evil for themselves or by consensus). Self lordship (Genesis 3:5) must yield to the Lordship of Christ and even while we are yet sinners we must do this, trusting Him, relying on HIM and HIS work, cleaving to HIM for our salvation....so for those who will be saved, after they hear, they believe (and so it is by grace, through faith), and then they are sealed by the Spirit...

They are not sealed first so they can faithe, and all will not faithe thus will NOT be saved (even eventually)...

It not pleasing God to condemn the wicked (who are each their own lord who reject God and do not follow His word)...when we sin it is not God who rejects us, it us rejecting Him (Isaiah 59:2) OUR sin separates US from HIM...He offers grace in exchange to as many as shall receive it (in this case it is the man and work of the Christ/Messiah)

Only to those who will receive Him does He give the power/right to BECOME the children of God (John 1:12)...

They are not first His children (born from above) who then can receive...and all will not receive thus all are not His children (Romans 8:9)

The gospel IMO is this...we have all sinned (and sin) and thus are going to be expelled from His presence because their is no sin in Him...what we call gehenna is that place designed for Satan and his cohorts because this is their sin...disregard God and his word and do it our way...so here is where we also must go where we can each be lord of a kingdom of one where nothing of God is nor anything He would have provided..sorry no light that was His idea...no touch, no fellowship with even another (His ideas), your soulish needs ever gnawing but the remedies were all of Him...at any rate God loves us despite our rebellious pride (dont ask me why but I sure am grateful) and does not want this to be our end so in Christ He offers the solution to the prayers, oblations, sacrifices, supplications of all men everywhere through out all time...how to be reconciled with Him and found in His favor...Amen

The Lord bless

Paul

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Thank you for the replay my friend. I do have a few questions.

The first thing I noticed is that you said

"God loves us despite our rebellious pride (dont ask me why but I sure am grateful) and does not want this to be our end"

I have two questions:

1) If God does not want this to be our end, then why did He initiate it to begin with?

2) If God does not want this to be our end, then how is it possible that this could be anybody's end? Is God trying to bring people to repentance? How is it that God has to try to do anything?

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Jeremiah 32:27

I'm not quite sure what your idea of hell is. Do you believe in eternal torment or eternal separation? Or is it something completely different?

Another thing I noticed us what you called "self-lordship", from which you quote Genesis:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5

I'm not quite sure what self-lordship is from a Scriptural position, and I'm confused as to how this verse verifies it.

I understand that the Orthodox interpretation of Genesis is that Adam and Eve sinned by their own free will, thus thwarting God's plan that they should live forever. I cannot accept this because it is incomprehensible to me how God could have His will thwarted.

I would like to share with you the interpretation that I get from the Garden, and I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God tells us right in the first chapter what His plan is for mankind. He is making us in His Image, after His Likeness. This required something that Adam and Eve did not possess when He created them: the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I believe this next verse is where the true confusion lies:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

Here, we see that God tells Adam that he may eat of every tree in the Garden. Then God warns man that if He eats of the Tree of Knowledge, he will die.

The problem with this translation is the word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of it". The word shalt is not in the original Hebrew. The original says:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ (of the tree) הַדַּ֙עַת֙ (of the knowledge) ט֣וֹב (of good) וָרָ֔ע (and evil) לֹ֥א (not) תֹאכַ֖ל (eat) תֹאכַ֖ל (of)

God did not "command" then regarding whether they could eat of the Tree, He warned them of the consequences if they did eat. With this in mind, let's see if we can make sense of this all.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

So now we are introduced to the Serpent, whom God had made more subtile than any other beast. Right from the beginning, he lies to to Eve. God never said they may "not" eat of every tree, He said they "may" eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, but she responds with what God had told her:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2-3

Then, the Serpent lies again, but deceives Eve by mixing his lie with truth:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

Eve did not know any better when she ate the Fruit. She had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. How could she have made a rational decision? This was all in perfect alignment of God's original and only plan. God verifies that everything is going according to His plan next:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see my friend, this was not a huge mishap on God's part by which He had to resort to plan B. There is no plan B.

God desired to make man in His Image, and this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God Himself planted the Tree and created the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had this new Knowledge, but they lacked the Wisdom and Prudence to use it. Yeshua fulfills this prophecy and purpose of mankind, as He is the first Man to be given the status of Sonship and aquire the true Image of God:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" Colossians 1:15

Do you think this is a valid interpretation?

I'm sorry to make this about free will, but I feel as though that is what you think I'm trying to refute. I'm trying to show how the Scriptures reveal that God will gather all things back to Himself, and there is no eternal torment, eternal separation, or annihilation. God will gather every person that has ever lived, and teach them Righteousness and Truth:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you believe exactly. Gehenna is a park in the outskirts of Jerusalem, where the Jews would burn their trash. The Hebrew Scriptures never mention this as a place of eternal torment or separation. God does indeed speak of Gehenna in the Hebrew Scriptures, and He says:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Hebrew transliteration of Gehenna), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." Jeremiah 7:31

Thank you and God bless you my new friend.

mmksparbud said:

I've never understood why people think that Adam and Eve did not know what was good before the fall. Of course they did! It just means that after she ate, she then would know evil also. For she knew the fruit was good before the fall--

(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

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Hellp my friend, thank you for the reply. You bring up several good points, but I have to disagree.

It does say that Eve saw the Fruit was "good" for food, but this seems to imply a carnal, pleasurable good; as opposed to the spiritual Good and Evil within our hearts. Adam and Eve both enjoyed pleasure, but pleasure is definitely not the same as that which is Good. Sexual immorality is indeed pleasurable, but it is the complete opposite of Good.

That's my interpretation of it anyways. Thank you and God bless you.

I understand, but it says she saw it was "a tree to be desired to make one wise"; but she didn't understand that these desires and lusts were sin. It wasn't a sin that she ate the Fruit, and sin did not enter the world when she ate it. It was a sin that she desired the Knowledge for her own carnal desires. It doesn't say they were not able to do Good and Evil, it says they had no Knowledge of it. She had never seen anyone die before, so how could she have even known what death is?

Eve knew that God told them not to eat the Fruit, but she didn't know why. The only thing she said to the Serpent was exactly what God had told her, but she couldn't have understood it. She had never experienced Evil, so she didn't know what it meant to disobey. It was the experience of Evil that contrasted with what is Good. Thus is the reason for Evil:

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

This translation does not do this verse justice. This single verse explains everything concerning the Problem of Evil, or rather, why we experience Evil.

The word translated "sore" is the Hebrew רָע (rah). רָע means Evil. The word translated "exercised" is from the Hebrew עָנָה (anah) and it means "to be brought low, to bow, to humble". This verse literally says:

This evil affair hath God given to the sons of man to be humbled therewith

Evil humbles us and shows us what is Good. It is a tool that God uses to teach us.

Thank you my friend.

Christus Discipulus said:

I think that the OP is a proponent of Universalism so should this be in a "Christian Only" forum?

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Hello my friend. Now that this is in the appropriate forum, would you be interested in continuing our discussion? Thank you and God bless you brother.

mmksparbud said:

No she didn't know evil--but she did know--"DO NOT"--she didn't have to know why---that she had never seen death is clear, but nothing to indicate she did not know what the term God used--"Die"--meant. That it meant end of breathing--she didn't understand it, maybe, but she knew it was something that happened if you do what God says not to do. She was not created stupid, God gave them some knowledge, they had a perfectly designed brain with God only knows what kind of intellect that meant--but certainly more than we are capable of even getting close to. But again, she didn't have to know, she just had to do what God said to do--obedience. Not knowing the outcome of your disobedience is no reason not to obey. Even today, when soldiers are told to do something, they do it. They don't stand there asking why. They do not have to know the reason why, they just need to obey. A child doesn't know the outcome of playing with matches. Even if you tell them. But they know they are to obey--they know what no means. Do not eat the cookie--means do not put it in your mouth. They do not have to know that it will spoil their dinner, that the sugar is bad for their teeth, that the peanuts can stick in their throat and they won't be able to breathe---they just have to not eat the &^%(* cookie!!

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I agree with your comparison of Eve to a child. If I say to my child "you are free to eat anything in the kitchen, but don't eat the cookies, lest you spoil your teeth", then the child should obey me (of course we are speaking of a child that has the required consciousness to learn Good and Evil). That is why I emphasized that the Serpent was more subtile that any beast God had made. It was God that made the Serpent and it was God that made the Serpent crafty.

Adam and Eve had obeyed God up until the point that the Serpent is introduced. Going back to our child analogy, we now have to add a third character to our scenario. If a teenager comes along and says "has your dad said you may not eat anything in the kitchen" and my child repeats my words, then the teen says "it shall surely not rot out your teeth. You dad just knows if you eat the cookies you'll be a big boy", then my child now has an external influence acting against his will. Seeing that my child doesn't know any better, when he eats the cookies, it was the teen that CAUSED my child to disobey. It was the Serpent that CAUSED Eve to disobey. Notice what is said in the next few verses:

"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Genesis 3:12

God doesn't say "Now Adam, you should know better. Don't blame your wife. You did this with your own free will". Instead, He asks Eve:

"And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." Genesis 3:13

Again, God doesn't say "Yeah right Eve. Don't blame the Serpent. You did this with your own free will." No, He says:

"And the LORD God said unto the SERPENT, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; note
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:14

Eve CAUSED Adam to sin, the Serpent CAUSED Eve to sin, and God works all things after the council of His own will.

Thank you my friend.

Yes my friend, He does say "beCAUSE thou has hearkened unto the voice of the wife". Like I said, Eve was the Cause of Adam's sin. I mostly wanted you to notice the order of whom God curses. First it was the Serpent, beCAUSE the Serpent was the Cause of the whole scenario. Then He curses Eve, beCAUSE Eve listened to the Serpent. And then He cursed Adam beCAUSE Adam listened to his wife.

I cannot comprehend how any other interpretation is possible. God said He was going to make man after His likeness, God planted the Tree of Knowledge Himself, God created the Serpent (which includes the Serpent's mind), and in the end, God says man has become like Him. Everything went exactly as according to plan.

I'm not implying it was God's "fault" that Eve disobeyed; however, I am implying that God is responsible for everything. God does all things. He is in complete control. To believe otherwise is to imply that God's plan for mankind failed before Adam and Eve had time to even reproduce.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The Hebrew word translated Evil in this verse is רָ֑ע (rah), the same word used for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Have you ever heard of Luciferianism? Luciferians teach that God was a tyrant who wanted to keep the Knowledge of Good and Evil away from man. However, Lucifer (who they believe is Satan based on a faulty translation of Isaiah 14:12) loved mankind and fell from heaven to give mankind Knowledge. There's actually an episode of Ancient Aliens about this.

I don't see how Luciferians are wrong if the Orthodox interpretation is true. Why didn't God want us to have Knowledge, if His plan was to make us after His likeness, which He confirms required the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Back to your cookie analogy, let's assume that the teen and the child have the same parents (since God created both man as well as the Serpent). If the child eats the cookies beCAUSE the teen deceived him, then yes, the parents are responsible for this scenario. If they never had the teen, then there would have been nobody around to tell the child otherwise (assuming this family is the only people that exist). Thus, the child would have never ate the cookies and his teeth would never have spoiled. But the parents did have the teen, and they raised the teen to be the way he is. So it's the teens fault that the child disobeyed his parents, and the parents are responsible for conceiving and raising both the teen and the child.

The Cause is not a separate issue. Every Effect has an initial Cause, and the following Effect is the Cause of the next Effect. In order for an Effect to come before it's Cause, one would have to travel faster than the Speed of Light. This is impossible. The first thing God spoke was "Let there be Light", thus God is the Initial Cause of all things. Because of this, free will is impossible. We only do what we were Caused to do, and the first Cause of our lives happens at conception; then Cause and Effect take their course. The Scriptures do not even imply that we have a "free" will.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

What does this following passage from 2 Thessalonians mean to you?

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come] (not in original Greek), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Who is the man of sin?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:

What is the temple of God?

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:16

What sits within us opposing God, and exalting itself above God, says that it is a god; so it can therefore thwart God's will?

Free will.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.