Discussion Salvation Requirement in the Old Testament

Soyeong

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Sacrifice was never the way to salvation. Everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, so justification has always been by faith. Having faith is taking an action that demonstrates that you trust someone, so their faith led them to obey God, such as performing sacrifices, but they were justified by faith, not the actions they took as the result of having faith. The actions themselves can be performed for reasons other than faith and love, but God has always disdained outward obedience while His people's hearts were far from Him.

Romans 4:1-8 What then shall we say was gained by[a] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
 
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franky67

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Sacrifice was never the way to salvation. Everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, so justification has always been by faith. Having faith is taking an action that demonstrates that you trust someone, so their faith led them to obey God, such as performing sacrifices, but they were justified by faith, not the actions they took as the result of having faith. The actions themselves can be performed for reasons other than faith and love, but God has always disdained outward obedience while His people's hearts were far from Him.

Romans 4:1-8 What then shall we say was gained by[a] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
 
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franky67

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YES, so very true, and God did not change when He sent His Son to take away all our sins.
So our salvation is still by faith, and not works.


God told Abraham that he was made righteous by his faith, which meant that he is now in heaven.

But then God also told Abraham and his descendants that if they were obedient, He would bless them with the blessings of His covenant. Listed in various places, but namely in Deuteronomy 28.

The new testament teaches us that God considers Jesus as the seed of Abraham, and that those in Christ are blessed with Abraham, as taught in Galatians 3:14

We Word of Faith believers are told we are wrong with our "health and welfare" gospel, and that the blessing spoken of in Gal. 3 are "spiritual" only

Why would God bless His people while they lived on earth in the old testament, and withhold those same blessing from those of us in Christ ?
 
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Truthfrees

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The OT people were not made perfect until the new cov, Perfect in this verse is about sin, see Heb 7:11 (perfection).

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
:oldthumbsup: Speaking of the new creation? Absolutely. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 4:24

Speaking of saved by faith or by works? It's always been faith. Hebrews 11 especially vs 2. :wave:
 
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:oldthumbsup: Speaking of the new creation? Absolutely. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 4:24

Speaking of saved by faith or by works? It's always been faith. Hebrews 11 especially vs 2. :wave:
but the perfect word was about sin in 11:40, see 7:11 below, so they were not perfected yet, in regard to sin.The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. Only the sprinkled blood of the new cov took away sin. What else could have?

7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

No shed blood, no remission.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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It really does depend on how you interpret "sacrifice". If by sacrifice you mean effort [works] faith is the obvious answer. However if you mean were their sins forgiven through the sacrifices, the answer is, yes; so it requires both faith and sacrifice. Under the old covenant God used the blood of animals to typify what Christ would ultimately accomplish since animal blood is insufficient to the day of Judgment. Yet God forgave them by the blood sacrifice. Both faith and the sacrifice were necessary for redemption. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." For a time God used the blood of animals to signify that he had remitted sins but it was always only the blood of Jesus that accomplished this. Both faith and the sacrifice are necessary for salvation.
 
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Was it faith or sacrifice ?
When we look at what it means to have faith, in the New Covenant the old Protestant or post-Reformation formula of justification by faith is better viewed as justified in the Spirit by faith. This means that our faith is both Christological in that the work that Jesus, as the Son of God, undertook on our behalf provides us with the opportunity to apply faith in that we can recognise his sacrifice on our behalf. We can add to this Christological aspect of the salvific event by adding in a Pneumatological element in that without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit we cannot be deemed to be righteous.

In the Old Covenant, Israel could not look to the sacrifice of the Son nor with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Their “faith” was limited to their obedience to the conditions that the Father had place upon Israel, if they obeyed his Laws to the Letter then they would one day be redeemed.

Even though Abraham's faith was accredited to him, his faith (and with Israels) is directed to the promises of God and not to the sacrificial work of Christ or with the reception of the Holy Spirit. If Israel can demonistrate its obedience to the conditions that God imposed on Israel, then their faithfulness to these obligations will eventually see the Israelites being welcomed into the Fathers presence.

So, whereas our faith is relational in that we are all one in Christ through the indwelling presence of the Spirit, Israel's faith was little more than obedience to a set of obligations.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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When we look at what it means to have faith, in the New Covenant the old Protestant or post-Reformation formula of justification by faith is better viewed as justified in the Spirit by faith. This means that our faith is both Christological in that the work that Jesus, as the Son of God, undertook on our behalf provides us with the opportunity to apply faith in that we can recognise his sacrifice on our behalf. We can add to this Christological aspect of the salvific event by adding in a Pneumatological element in that without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit we cannot be deemed to be righteous.

In the Old Covenant, Israel could not look to the sacrifice of the Son nor with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Their “faith” was limited to their obedience to the conditions that the Father had place upon Israel, if they obeyed his Laws to the Letter then they would one day be redeemed.

Even though Abraham's faith was accredited to him, his faith (and with Israels) is directed to the promises of God and not to the sacrificial work of Christ or with the reception of the Holy Spirit. If Israel can demonistrate its obedience to the conditions that God imposed on Israel, then their faithfulness to these obligations will eventually see the Israelites being welcomed into the Fathers presence.

So, whereas our faith is relational in that we are all one in Christ through the indwelling presence of the Spirit, Israel's faith was little more than obedience to a set of obligations.

Very wordy and hard to follow. I don't think I could accept this for one second, but that may be because I have misinterpreted its intent. If it was true the sacrifice served no purpose. See if you can explain this in layman's terms. How was the faith of Old Testament believers not relational?
 
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Soyeong

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When we look at what it means to have faith, in the New Covenant the old Protestant or post-Reformation formula of justification by faith is better viewed as justified in the Spirit by faith. This means that our faith is both Christological in that the work that Jesus, as the Son of God, undertook on our behalf provides us with the opportunity to apply faith in that we can recognise his sacrifice on our behalf. We can add to this Christological aspect of the salvific event by adding in a Pneumatological element in that without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit we cannot be deemed to be righteous.

In the Old Covenant, Israel could not look to the sacrifice of the Son nor with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Their “faith” was limited to their obedience to the conditions that the Father had place upon Israel, if they obeyed his Laws to the Letter then they would one day be redeemed.

Even though Abraham's faith was accredited to him, his faith (and with Israels) is directed to the promises of God and not to the sacrificial work of Christ or with the reception of the Holy Spirit. If Israel can demonistrate its obedience to the conditions that God imposed on Israel, then their faithfulness to these obligations will eventually see the Israelites being welcomed into the Fathers presence.

So, whereas our faith is relational in that we are all one in Christ through the indwelling presence of the Spirit, Israel's faith was little more than obedience to a set of obligations.

The faith of Abraham has always been central to the Bible and the law was always intended to be kept by faith in a way that built a relationship between God and His people, not legalistically according to the letter. The law was not intended by God to be a legalistic burden, but rather the law is spiritual and it is only by faith that it can be received as a divine privilege and a delight. Legalism according to the letter is in fact where Israel went wrong because they didn't understand that the true righteousness of the law is found in a relationship with God.
 
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Very wordy and hard to follow. I don't think I could accept this for one second, but that may be because I have misinterpreted its intent. If it was true the sacrifice served no purpose. See if you can explain this in layman's terms. How was the faith of Old Testament believers not relational?
Yes, my post was probably somewhat overly cryptic. One of the problems with any discussion that addresses soteriology is that over the years it has built up a number of ‘safety terms’ that allows us to develop certain points without moving outside of orthodox doctrine; but I agree that this can help to blur and even misrepresent the intended message if people aren’t all that familiar with this type of christianese language.

One thing that I need to point out is that what I presented was thoroughly orthodox where maybe a point or two could be clarified but overall I feel that my post has correctly represented accepted doctrine. In fact, this is why I can take some comfort with my possible over-use of the more common terminology as it helps me to keep way inside of the accepted norms.

As for the sacrificial elements of the Old Covenant, along with its demands that Israel obey the various dictums with regard to Temple worship and with the almost countless number of Laws, unless these were obeyed then the Israelite was doomed to a godless eternity. Does this mean that he could miss the occasional sacrifice or compulsory attendance at a Temple ceremony or where he can maybe miss following a few obligatory Laws, who knows, where undoubtedly the Father will have to be the one who decides the fate of each Israelite.

See if you can explain this in layman's terms. How was the faith of Old Testament believers not relational?
Here is where the New Covenant which was inaugurated by the Father, where the Son gave his life for man and where the Holy Spirit empowers us to life a life of victory is so different to that of the imperfect Old Covenant.

I would expect that every Pentecostal and charismatic would be able to give their hearty consent to the cry of Moses where he declared (Num 11:29) I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!" along with the Psalmists plea (Ps 51:11,12) “Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me”. Moses and the Psalmist both understood the presence of the Holy Spirit where we have the advantage over Israel of old in that we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to not only empower us for mission but that we can overcome the sinful nature through his Power; this is something that the Old Covenant could not provide.

Even though Israel were the people of God providing that they obeyed the legal stipulations that were imposed upon them, we have the advantage in that we have been made the very children of God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which makes us truly One People in and before God. Israel’s relationship with the Father was a corporate experience that required Israel to obey the Law, where each individual was required on his own merit and strength to obey God; whereas the New Covenant Believer is individually make righteous through no obligation or merit on our part - now that's a true relationship built on God's love and gift to man which has absolutely no parallel under the Old Covenant.
 
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The faith of Abraham has always been central to the Bible and the law was always intended to be kept by faith in a way that built a relationship between God and His people, not legalistically according to the letter. The law was not intended by God to be a legalistic burden, but rather the law is spiritual and it is only by faith that it can be received as a divine privilege and a delight. Legalism according to the letter is in fact where Israel went wrong because they didn't understand that the true righteousness of the law is found in a relationship with God.
This is a very short reply but Abraham's faith was accredited to him simply as he recognised who God was and that he was prepared to obey the stipulations/laws that God commanded him to follow. This type of human faith has no comparison to the faith that God gives so that each can recognise their sin and confess Jesus as Lord. Abrahams faith (which is to his great credit) is still probably no different to the faith that I apply when I jump into my car where I expect to arrive safely from point A to B.
 
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Soyeong

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This is a very short reply but Abraham's faith was accredited to him simply as he recognised who God was and that he was prepared to obey the stipulations/laws that God commanded him to follow. This type of human faith has no comparison to the faith that God gives so that each can recognise their sin and confess Jesus as Lord. Abrahams faith (which is to his great credit) is still probably no different to the faith that I apply when I jump into my car where I expect to arrive safely from point A to B.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
 
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John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
That's well said.
Even though it can be easy to criticise Israel for its constant failures where even God himself rejected them, I still feel sorry for Israel as I would not want to have to be saddled with the horrendous number of OT Laws that they had to contend with without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Soyeong

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That's well said.
Even though it can be easy to criticise Israel for its constant failures where even God himself rejected them, I still feel sorry for Israel as I would not want to have to be saddled with the horrendous number of OT Laws that they had to contend with without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did play a role in the OT and His role is to lead us in obedience to God:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

http://www.bbc.edu/council/documents/2011/5A_Stallard_ The Holy Spirit in the OT Final.pdf

It is only by faith that we can receive God's laws as a divine privilege and delight as they were intended and as the Psalmists understood (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 119) and as Paul understood (Romans 7:22). I don't know how anyone could read Psalms 119 and get the impression that God had saddled them with a horrendous burden. The Jews frequently give thanks to God for giving them the Torah as instructions for life. There's such a huge disconnect between how most Jews view the law and how most Christians view it, and after spending time studying the Jewish cultural context of the Bible, I came to the conclusion that the Jews had it right.
 
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