[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

ScottA said:

Actually, truth be known, the Pope is like me - maybe (except I am not in trouble).

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Do you also take credit for the fancy shoes?

Chriliman said:

Sorry, What question?

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Post #883.

Btw talk about ignoring questions, I think it was you who completely ignored a bunch of my honest questions only to focus on me asking you to not regard me as a religious zealot. What's up with that?

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No, I did not see any honest questions in that regard.

As for being a religious zealot, that would be an appropriate label for one that preaches his religion in violation of the rules of the philosophy forum he is in.

Just sayin'.

Chriliman said:

No one need match how I believe, everyone should just be honest with themselves and seek truth from a humble heart and the truth will find them. Pretty simple.

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What if the truth is that gods are merely characters in books?

Chriliman said:

I can't help that people inevitably ask questions about my beliefs regardless of the topic at hand.

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From your posting behaviour, it would appear that you start these threads for the purpose of preaching, as you did in the Physical and Life Sciences forum.

Besides I've brought it back to my main point about the problem at the bottom of reason being that some wrongly base their reasoning on assumptions and others rightly base their reasoning on observation and descern truth from observing and asking questions. It all ties in together and points to God.

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No, it doesn't.

Davian said:

Do you also take credit for the fancy shoes?

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He gets fancy shoes???

ScottA said:

He gets fancy shoes???

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ScottA said:

I sent you two rescue boats, a helicopter, my Son walking on the water, and a new world...what were you waiting for, test results?

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Wait - when did this happen?

Davian said:

In these forums, more times that I can count, I have been told that there is only one "God", just different interpretations. Is not belief in "God" enough? Or, does one have to match how you believe, whatever that is?

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One has to believe in the One God, or one doesn't [actually] believe in God, but a fabrication...which, yes, comes in many forms.

ScottA said:

One has to believe in the One God, or one doesn't [actually] believe in God, but a fabrication...which, yes, comes in many forms.

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The subject was who Chriliman thinks should burn for eternity, n00bs like myself, that ask some questions, or the Islamic extremists. It has been explained to me by others that the latter believes in the same "God", so they should be okay.

What's your opinion on this?

Chriliman said:

Sorry Medera, but until you gain more respect for the bible and treat it as Gods written word, you'll continue to miss the points I'm making. Everything I've said can be backed by scripture and apparently that means nothing to you.

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sure, you can find what you say from scripture, you can get it by learning it, but it is different when we get it from the holy Spirit. Not repetative, but always new through insights and revelations.
And you don't know the difference. And that means nothing to you.
I have compassion for you.

Davian said:

The subject was who Chriliman thinks should burn for eternity, n00bs like myself, that ask some questions, or the Islamic extremists. It has been explained to me by others that the latter believes in the same "God", so they should be okay.

What's your opinion on this?

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Thanks for asking!

As for you and asking questions, it depends on your motives. If you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you're in the clear. On the other hand, if you are trying to trap the Lord's own with your words...you're toast.

As for Islamic extremists, their god is the same God, but their promise is not the same promise. Their promise from their God, is that they shall become a great nation...which they have. But they shall not inherit eternal life, if they do not come to believe in Him whom attained it.

madera23 said:

sure, you can find what you say from scripture, you can get it by learning it, but it is different when we get it from the holy Spirit. Not repetative, but always new through insights and revelations.
And you don't know the difference. And that means nothing to you.
I have compassion for you.

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Ps Reply to Krillian (sorry spelled. Wrong
I just want you to know that I know scripture very well.
but there came a time I began to get understanding from
within. I no longer had the need to read scripture.
in psalms it says "be still and know that I am God.".

That led to the Holy Spirit.
That is when I began to meditate with a judeo christian meditation.
be still and know God.
filling the mind with verse and chapter keeps the mind from being still.
madera

ScottA said:

Thanks for asking!

As for you and asking questions, it depends on your motives. If you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you're in the clear.

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That not what he said.

On the other hand, if you are trying to trap the Lord's own with your words...you're toast.

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It is my understanding that you guys volunteer to come into this forum and contradict yourselves. There is no "trap" on my part.

As for Islamic extremists, their god is the same God,

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Again, different.

but their promise is not the same promise. Their promise from their God, is that they shall become a great nation...which they have. But they shall not inherit eternal life, if they do not come to believe in Him whom attained it.

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Perhaps you and Chriliman could show us how two religionists work out differences of opinion on this subject.

It is my understanding that, historically, we would go with those that had the most powerful military.

ScottA said:

I was hoping you would elaborate, for instance: where are you referring to? How is this possible?

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I am not referring to anywhere. That would need the existence of spatial relations... and I don't think one is possible without the other.
It is a philosophical concept, based on the reasonings of concepts existing and not-existing. As that, it must transcend the concepts that it tries to deal with.

The problem is, and I would hope you could appreciate, that as a "witness" to these truths, I am limited to my humanity, to explain. Hence, all the analogies. Yes, I do mean to "reflect" on non-temporal matters, but am limited to temporal means.

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"Witness", as I hope you are aware of, is not necessarily reliable. In fact, it has been shown over and over again that "witness" is rather unreliable.
There are ways to corrobate "witness", but there are also ways to weaken it... and somehow you manage to employ all of the later.

Your test puts us both in the pool...and as yet, my test only comes in one of two forms: 1) with me presenting the matter hypothetically, which of course would require you to step away from your math and use your imagination...willingly, as if I were trying to share the view from my hotel window in Paris over the phone, if you had never been, but really wanted to see it, even if only in your minds eye. 2) I have also offered that you should really jump in the pool, take the plunge... but you repeatedly refuse. So, while your test is based in facts, I am not given the opportunity of an equal presentation...by you, and by the circumstances (by God).

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(my emphasis)
See, this is one of the major problems... with our discussion here, with your approach to it, with your "analogies"... with your whole position regarding this question.
You don't have relevant evidence. You ascribe that to "the circumstances", to your limits as a human...
But you cannot see the flaws in your reasoning. You must not see the flaws in your reasoning.

How do you know that I repeatedly refuse to jump? You don't! You haven't seen me. You haven't been told. You have no evidence, for or against.
You conclude that I do, solely based on your premise that, if I did, I would be in the pool.
Your premise might simply be wrong... but you cannot accept that.

That is why math works, and why your approach doesn't. That is why imagination is great... but not a replacement for what is real.

I AM a representative of God, yes. But he has set limits on presentation: He literally cast humanity out from his presence - for good reason, he then designed a means of salvaging the relationship (salvation), and built in certain safeguards to keep the cause of his casting us out, from happening again...and then he planted clues EVERYWHERE...but the whole thing is not mathematical...that would be too easy for the wrong elements to weasel back in. So...in riddles, you CAN work your way through it, and the clues are free for the asking...but ask him, they cannot be shared. Only the news can be shared...but it's good. That's the plan, and as frustrating as it must seem, it is not only brilliant, it's generous to humanity in that we deserved only to be cast out, and it is without actual bloodshed (but that is only if you understand our true reality)...as he himself said, "It is good, very good."

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This is not an explanation of anything. It is just an excuse for not being able to explain.

And it shows. It isn't consistent. It contradicts... other versions of Christian theology, that proclaim with an equal fervor that they are "true". It contradicts your own claims.
But you don't need it to be consistent. It just gives you a reason, an excuse, a permit, to not be consistent.

For you, that might be enough. For me it isn't.

Chriliman said:

Islamic extremists are examples of those who are completely depraved of the truth.

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Depraved or deprived of the truth? Then one must ask why. Why did god choose an insignificant tribe, why did he send his son to save them and not the rest of the world?

madera23 said:

Some came back, I am one of them.
madera

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But only a minority. So is this god, the one for everyone of just a small section of the world?

bhsmte said:

2/3 of the worlds population are not christians. Are they all depraved of the truth and being led by evil?

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If so why?

Chriliman said:

I believe the spirit of God is drawing His children to himself.

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Could a god of done a better job?

An omnipotent all powerful god, has to be judged by high standards. We don't judge Olympic sprinters ability to run 100 metres by our standards. Therefore a god intending to convert the World or even Western World, Islamic, Asian, America's areas. Has to be judged by far higher standards than you and me.

And everyone fails miserably. Because the strength of these gods are directly linked to the ability of the followers to kill others. Christianity is only strong because of European Armies of conquest, Islam the same, and the rest are measured by the power of the followers. down to small Aborigine tribes with very insignificant gods. Because they were never able to form an army to force their message down other people throats.

Don't believe me? Read a newspaper to see it going on today. Just like it was a few 100 years ago here in Europe, or was in South America, and everywhere else.

I judge a man by his actions not his words, most certainly by the words of some writing about him. I judge gods by the same measure.

Name one god who was able to do his work without an army to push it home.

Davian said:

Perhaps you and Chriliman could show us how two religionists work out differences of opinion on this subject.

It is my understanding that, historically, we would go with those that had the most powerful military.

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As far as religion works, it's still true for some. Their military holds the key. For the West today, its more about money.

Take the American bible belt for instance, they're trying to indoctrinate children with creationism. This is supported by the politicians, looking for votes to stay in power to keep the money flowing. In the past the indoctrination was enforced by the end of a sword.

The RCC is all about power and money. They hid child abuse claims, to keep the Church intact and out of court.

Chriliman said:

You still do not have direct physical evidence because my consciousness is not physical.

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You didn't specify "direct", but okay.

I still have physical evidence, and you are the one claiming that consciousness is not physical. I take a dual-aspect view of the mind-body relation, in which there is a strong relationship between the physical and the mental. I don't view consciousness as existing in some unreachable realm outside of our universe and outside of empiricism. It is another aspect of a physical process, and so the evidence is a bit more "direct" than it might seem from your perspective.

I'll grant that my experience of my own consciousness is a logical element in what leads me to infer that you have consciousness. But that doesn't mean that my inference is purely introspective. It is based on quite a bit on physical evidence, including brain science.


eudaimonia,

Mark