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Smidlee

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The most logical answer is that those myths that arose after Aurochs went extinct, turned the unicorn into a horse (made a better story), and then translators today want to turn it into a rhinoceros, because they still let mythology of one horned creatures drive their thought processes.
The reason why they claim it's a rhino is the fact in one verse it mentions one horn is bigger than the other.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Then why can't science study them if they exist?

Science can study anything it wants.

Or better yet, tell us how to distinguish between the spirits you believe in and spirits that do not exist?

The spirit I believe in leads me to believe in spirits. I don't know anything about spirits "that don't exist" (is there such a thing?).
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The reason why they claim it's a rhino is the fact in one verse it mentions one horn is bigger than the other.

I'm not sure that can be substantiated, I think it's simply popular myth.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Actually, scientists have claimed to find 'proof' (not even evidence mind you) of "dark" matter simply by virtue of it's claimed 'effect' on light.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html

Note that no form of exotic matter has ever been found, let alone shown to bend light in controlled experimentation. Even that effect is 'assumed' rather than demonstrated. They also simply "assume" that such exotic forms of matter not only exist, but also that exotic types of matter are a "natural" form of matter. Every quality/attribute of the supernatural/theoretical construct is simply "assumed", even whether or not it is considered to be 'natural'.

That's because they ignore all that plasma in space that is bending that light - just like we observe every day in the bending of light in the atmosphere. It is plasma that deflects it near the sun.

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/eclipse/index.html

And as for gravitational lensing - they also ignore all that plasma around every galaxy, blaming it on gravity acting on a massless photon.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/H-12-331.html

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-s-hubble-finds-giant-halo-around-the-andromeda-galaxy

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/multimedia/ngc6240.html

Claiming gravity can act on a massless photon bending and slowing it - when only it's transference through matter has been shown to bend and slow light.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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We could see if you could present your claims in an evidenced, testable, falsifiable manner. But you can't do that, can you?

Testable and falsifiable according to what - you are not here to promote science or any belief, make no claims at all, remember - or did you forget that already? So what are you going to use to see if I can present my claims in an evidenced, testable, falsifiable manner? Your "beliefs"?


My beliefs are irrelevant. What you are proposing is a false dichotomy. We could both be wrong.

No doubt we both are in some aspects of any belief.


Mainstream science and cosmolgy needs no defence from me.

Or you are just unable to defend it, being you have no knowledge of it?


From our own philosophy forum here:

Philosophy Forum Statement of Purpose

The Philosophy forum is for the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence. Epistemology is concerned with the origin and nature of knowledge, and is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.

Philosophy: Critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs and logical analysis of the basic concepts employed in the expression of such beliefs. Philosophy may also be defined as reflection on the varieties of human experience, or as the rational, methodical, and systematic consideration of the topics that are of greatest concern to humanity. -- Concise Encyclopedia

Fundamental beliefs, we agree. Which has nothing to do with religion - just other philosophical beliefs. So you are implying what?

Are we discussing Philosophical Theology?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_theology
 
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Loudmouth

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We agree - that's probably why you reject electricity everywhere you observe it in space - you still hold to those flawed beliefs when it was thought to be supernatural - because you don't understand it.

You are one to really not be talking to anyone about electricity at all, considering you still hold to supernatural beliefs about it, believing any occurrence of it in space is supernatural.

I reject your Electric Universe crackpottery because science falsifies it. For example, the Cathode Sun championed by the EU community should fry astronauts with the massive amounts of radiation that it produces:

"In the 'solar cathode' electric sun model, radiation exposure at the orbit of Earth is 38,000 rads in one hour!"
http://dealingwithcreationisminastr...2/09/death-by-electric-universe-ii-solar.html
 
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Michael

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I reject your Electric Universe crackpottery because science falsifies it. For example, the Cathode Sun championed by the EU community should fry astronauts with the massive amounts of radiation that it produces:

"In the 'solar cathode' electric sun model, radiation exposure at the orbit of Earth is 38,000 rads in one hour!"
http://dealingwithcreationisminastr...2/09/death-by-electric-universe-ii-solar.html

What a bunch of nonsense. Bridgman is rather ignorant of EU/PC theory and he needs to do a little research:

Revisiting the Solar Cathode Model

Back in the early days of my involvement with the "Electric Universe" phenomenon, I did a very simple analysis of an Electric Sun model based on the description and parameters. One of those models, where the Sun acts as a cathode, powered by electrons accelerated by a hypothesized potential difference between the heliopause and photosphere of billions of volts, were subjected to some basic analysis using fundamental conservation principles. I called this model the "Solar Capacitor" model due to its similarity to spherical capacitors studied in much of the physics literature. EU supporters sometimes call it the solar 'cathode' model and it is based on models originally proposed by Juergens (see References below) and promoted by Don Scott in The Electric Sky. My analyses of this model were summarized in a few blog posts.

First of all, the cathode solar model was first proposed by Kristian Birkeland around 1908, long before Juergens. Contrary to Bridgman's statements, Birkeland's cathode solar model was an internally powered solar model and did not require an external power source as Bridgman erroneously claims. Furthermore Jeurgen's solar model was an *anode* solar model, not a cathode solar model! Sheeesh! 0 for 2. The ignorance of the mainstream is simply astounding.

While Bridgman's claims and complaints might apply to a 100 percent externally powered solar model, it doesn't actually apply to any solar model that is at least partially internally powered, particularly and most specifically the cathode solar model proposed by Kristian Birkeland.

Contrary to Bridgman's erroneous statements, Jeurgen's solar model was an *anode* solar model! Bridgman is simply misrepresenting facts, and misrepresenting the EU/PC models plural. There are *at least* four unique EU/PC solar models, and his criticisms apply to only one of them, and contrary to his erroneous claims, it does not apply to any cathode models at all! Bridgman is clearly misrepresenting fact, and his criticisms have *never* applied to Kristian Birkeland's cathode model. Birkeland assumed the sun was *internally* powered, which does not require a "solar capacitor". Epic fail by Bridgman. Pure misrepresentation of fact, either willfully or just due to pure ignorance of fact.
 
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Michael

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And by the way.....

With Birkeland's cathode sun theory, he was able to "predict" (yes Martha, real empirical predictions) several solar atmospheric phenomenon that were not predicted with the standard model, including the existence of electrical discharges in the solar atmosphere, cathode rays from the sun, both types of high speed particles in solar wind, polar 'jets', and a corona that is hotter than the photosphere.

Each and every one of those predictions has been demonstrated to be true based upon satellite technologies starting in the 1970's.

Bridgman blatantly misrepresents the empirical facts, and he refuses to correct his numerous public errors. Wow! How unprofessional can you get?
 
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Michael

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That's because they ignore all that plasma in space that is bending that light - just like we observe every day in the bending of light in the atmosphere. It is plasma that deflects it near the sun.

It's painfully clear based on the online debates that I've had over the past decade that the mainstream doesn't have a clue about plasma physics. As a result they fill every gap in their understanding with "made up" ad hoc gap filler. It's more than a little sad that they continue to peddle a concept that Alfven himself called "pseudoscience" and which he made obsolete with his double layer paper over 30 years ago. The ignorance of the mainstream knows no bounds, hence their ridiculous need for 95 percent supernatural invisible gap filler.
 
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Davian

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It has not been for millennia, in fact the supernatural realm of which I speak, has been considered separated by a "gulf" since the beginning...where it explains just how the natural world was "created" and was cast out of the supernatural realm.
It doesn't explain anything. It is yet another assertion.
 
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Davian

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And yet <snip dodge>
"Okay, Davian, I accept how they used that word in the common vernacular".
Bzzt. The only "effect" they observed was lensing, and normal matter does that just fine.
Normal matter that was not observed to be there.
I love the double standard of empiricism when it suits you, and pure "faith" when it suits you too. :)
I love the double standard of empiricism when it suits you, when your gods fail to show up in your lab. :wave:
False again. No exotic forms of matter have ever been shown to exist, let alone cause any effect on a photon.
Same difference.
But "hypothesize" does not have the negative connotations that "assume" does, does it? - never miss a chance to throw some mud. ^_^
Made up types apparently. ;)
Nice dodge.
 
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Loudmouth

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It has not been for millennia, in fact the supernatural realm of which I speak, has been considered separated by a "gulf" since the beginning...where it explains just how the natural world was "created" and was cast out of the supernatural realm.

It has been millennia. Ben Franklin's demystification of lightning is one of the more modern examples. Lightning was seen as a manifestation of the supernatural in the natural world. Only recently have some theists invented an undetectable supernatural realm where they can protect their beliefs from questions.
 
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Davian

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Who cares?
Scroll back to the bit about astronomers lobbying to have granite monuments installed in state buildings.
No assumption, you just said "I just don't personally know how to falsify the idea yet"
Since when did I become the only person in the world, and since when was falsification a requirement in science?
"Okay, Davian, I guess I did say that. I won't make that mistake again."
You handwaved away an entire empirical theory of God based on that objection.
Theory? All you did was slap the label of "God" on the universe and rant about mainstream cosmology.
You really don't grasp the whole concept of panentheism apparently.

Your questions reflect that fact.
It all seems to boil down to having "relationships" with things that don't actually, directly respond.
Why exactly did you reject the empirical theory of God that I put forth?
I. do. not. know. What part of "not a conscious decision" do you not grasp? I can only relate to you what I consciously see as flaws in it.
 
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Davian

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Testable and falsifiable according to what
According to the hypothesis you present to us in support of your claims.
- you are not here to promote science or any belief, make no claims at all, remember - or did you forget that already?
No. Are you confusing me with someone else?
So what are you going to use to see if I can present my claims in an evidenced, testable, falsifiable manner?
I already did that. I asked that you take your claims to an dedicated science-based forum, and present your ideas for discussion, and for you to defend them. BTW, how is that going for you?

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?155398-Expansion-Of-Space

Your "beliefs"?
Again with the false dichotomy. My beliefs are not on the table.
No doubt we both are in some aspects of any belief.

Or you are just unable to defend it, being you have no knowledge of it?
s-GOLDEN-PALACE-large.jpg


If that mind-reading hat doesn't actually work, it only serves to make you look funny. :)

Fundamental beliefs, we agree. Which has nothing to do with religion - just other philosophical beliefs. So you are implying what?

Are we discussing Philosophical Theology?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_theology
No.
 
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Michael

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That you cannot reach those goalposts is not indicative of their movement. They are all back there, should you wish to make another attempt.

Our original discussion was about subjective personal choice of various beliefs not "free will". You simply moved the goalposts to suit yourself.
 
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Michael

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Normal matter that was not observed to be there.

Their "guestimation" of the amount of ordinary baryonic matter that was present in 2006 was shown to be flawed in numerous ways:

http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15850&sid=d4a722fb33becd41409cf30654280573

But you go right ahead and pretend it never happened, just like the mainstream pretends that it never happened.

I love the double standard of empiricism when it suits you, when your gods fail to show up in your lab. :wave:

You still don't apparently understand the concept of panentheism or pantheism. In both theories God not only shows up in the lab, God is the lab. :)

Unlike your invisible, impotent on Earth sky thingies, the God I believe in is quite 'visible', and quite tangible.

But "hypothesize" does not have the negative connotations that "assume" does, does it? - never miss a chance to throw some mud. ^_^

Apparently it only has a negative connotation to you when it's applied to the topic of God, and nowhere else.
 
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Michael

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Scroll back to the bit about astronomers lobbying to have granite monuments installed in state buildings.

Their "monuments" are simply made of metal and glass instead of granite. So what?

"Okay, Davian, I guess I did say that. I won't make that mistake again."

Having fun putting (false) words in my mouth today? You really need to stop complaining about other peoples debate tactics when you do stuff like that.

You apparently just like to twist my words and change the subject when it suits you.

Theory? All you did was slap the label of "God" on the universe and rant about mainstream cosmology.

Nope. I provided you published papers that demonstrate the electrical nature of the universe, along with mass layouts that functionally and physically resemble intelligent structures on Earth. In contrast, the mainstream model requires personal faith in four supernatural constructs.

It all seems to boil down to having "relationships" with things that don't actually, directly respond.

It's a pity that's been your experience, but you can only speak for yourself on that score.

I. do. not. know. What part of "not a conscious decision" do you not grasp? I can only relate to you what I consciously see as flaws in it.

What you "see as flaws" is your subjective *choice* in the matter! Get it?
 
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