[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Evidence of the Holy Spirit

Michael Collum said:

I recall in some places the speaking of tongues is used as evidence of receiving the holy spirit. But what about the fruit of the spirit?

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Even though suggesting that we should gauge the probability that someone has been Born Again by assessing their fruit of the Spirit, that this would be seen by most as being a high ideal, how exactly is this to be done?

I think that I could easily find a number of unsaved individuals who are not only well respected within their respective communities but who themselves can demonstrate a number of attributes that many of us would deem to be godly. On the other hand, I can easily select a number of seasoned Christians (and not just phonies) who I and others would deem to be simply rude, inconsiderate and downright ill-tempered; and these are only those on church salaries and not merely pew warmers. Now if we were to stand them altogether I suspect that we could have trouble working out who was saved and who was unsaved.

When Peter was being interrogated by the Council in Jerusalem along with the Apostles regarding the possible outpouring of the Spirit upon the Romans, Luke did not bother to record if anyone asked "But what about their fruits", where once Peter said that the Romans had spoken in tongues the Council then rejoiced in that they were now able to fully accept that the Romans were indeed Born Again. I'm sure that after a few months or maybe in a year or two that the Council and the Apostles would be trying to see if they had grown in the Lord but this would be virtually impossible to do within a short period of time.

I can tell you one thing with certainty.... That the unction of the Holy Spirit is not ego! So many people have the unction and the ego confused! I would venture to say that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a body with human ego.

rockytopva said:

I can tell you one thing with certainty.... That the unction of the Holy Spirit is not ego! So many people have the unction and the ego confused! I would venture to say that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a body with human ego.

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How would you define ego?

As an example, does this mean that if a Born Again believer who is also able to speak in tongues decides to apply for a position in his company where he believes that he is more suited to the task (ego) than his workmates might be, does this mean that he is suffereing from an overrealised ego where the Holy Spirit then departs from him?

Biblicist2 said:

Even though suggesting that we should gauge the probability that someone has been Born Again by assessing their fruit of the Spirit, that this would be seen by most as being a high ideal, how exactly is this to be done?

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first, all the fruit would be present not just some of it and it would be growing. Second, one of the main ways to tell the HS is obedience to God. So if the person is without sin, or is growing into this sinlessness, there is evidence of the indwelling HS.

I was actually quite excited to see this thread because this is something God has been talking to me about of late. In fact, our guarantee of salvation according to scripture is the evidence of the indwelling HS. The primary evidence of which is obedience to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

I do expect this discussion to get pretty heated however, because many people who cannot see the evidence of the HS in their own lives, will be challenged to search their own hearts for the reasons why and that is always a messy business.

I think that I could easily find a number of unsaved individuals who are not only well respected within their respective communities but who themselves can demonstrate a number of attributes that many of us would deem to be godly. On the other hand, I can easily select a number of seasoned Christians (and not just phonies) who I and others would deem to be simply rude, inconsiderate and downright ill-tempered; and these are only those on church salaries and not merely pew warmers. Now if we were to stand them altogether I suspect that we could have trouble working out who was saved and who was unsaved.

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not from my experience. In fact, we did an informal experiment with a few of the youth in our church (just happened, wasn't planned). Some of the youth were asked who they knew that they had confidence would stand in the face of persecution and not falter. They named two people. When asked who else, they didn't know. When asked about specific individuals, they said, "maybe, not sure." A bit later, something happened that rocked our church and the answer the youths gave proved to be true. I think that when we try to make this excuse that we wouldn't know a believer from an unbeliever if we only look at the fruit of the HS, it is a form of unbelief (not of salvation before someone reads into it what is not there) not of salvation, but unbelief that God is who He claims to be and does what He claims to do in the lives of His people.

I personally remember as a young kid (I came to Christ at 6 and never looked back) telling God that if people couldn't see Christ in my life, then it wasn't worth it. So I prayed that God would be so alive in me that people would notice, that those who hated Him would hate me for the Christ they see in me. Boy, I had no idea what that prayer would result in and I have no idea the coming trials of that prayer, but it was worth it and continues to be worth it, to see that Christ is alive in me and people recognize it and respond to that Christ.

When Peter was being interrogated by the Council in Jerusalem along with the Apostles regarding the possible outpouring of the Spirit upon the Romans, Luke did not bother to record if anyone asked "But what about their fruits", where once Peter said that the Romans had spoken in tongues the Council then rejoiced in that they were now able to fully accept that the Romans were indeed Born Again. I'm sure that after a few months or maybe in a year or two that the Council and the Apostles would be trying to see if they had grown in the Lord but this would be virtually impossible to do within a short period of time.

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The problem I have with this is two fold. 1. this is when the HS first came upon the believers after Christ's resurrection. IOWs they were just beginning to learn what it was all about to have the HS make His home within us. That doesn't sound like the best way to know what God wants us to know about that indwelling HS. 2. Throughout scripture we are told about the HS and what He does in our lives. Not a single one of those passages points out that the primary evidence of the HS is tongues, in fact, there are places in scripture that suggest that speaking in tongues is not for every believer and that that is okay. So to try to make it an issue of tongues or other showy gifts, removes so much of the teaching of scripture about the HS, that I personally have some real trouble with it.

Well that is my two cents....thanks to the OP for the discussion.

rockytopva said:

I can tell you one thing with certainty.... That the unction of the Holy Spirit is not ego! So many people have the unction and the ego confused! I would venture to say that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a body with human ego.

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Amen, it requires humility, even I Cor. 13 tells us that Love (one of the fruit of the Spirit) is not boastful, proud, self seeking. Amen and amen.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Just a little bit of ego... Just a tad! And the whole lump is bad! 100%!

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -
Mark 10:25

I would say that simple profession in Christ is enough for salvation. If you want to move into the fullness of God a whole lot has got to be left behind... Especially the ego. If a man desires to be that which he is not... HE MUST CRUCIFY THAT WHICH HE IS!!!

Michael Collum said:

I recall in some places the speaking of tongues is used as evidence of receiving the holy spirit. But what about the fruit of the spirit?

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a fruit is the product of a tree
but how does one know the wind is blowing upon the tree ?

razzelflabben said:

first, all the fruit would be present not just some of it and it would be growing. Second, one of the main ways to tell the HS is obedience to God. So if the person is without sin, or is growing into this sinlessness, there is evidence of the indwelling HS.

I was actually quite excited to see this thread because this is something God has been talking to me about of late. In fact, our guarantee of salvation according to scripture is the evidence of the indwelling HS. The primary evidence of which is obedience to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

I do expect this discussion to get pretty heated however, because many people who cannot see the evidence of the HS in their own lives, will be challenged to search their own hearts for the reasons why and that is always a messy business. not from my experience. In fact, we did an informal experiment with a few of the youth in our church (just happened, wasn't planned). Some of the youth were asked who they knew that they had confidence would stand in the face of persecution and not falter. They named two people. When asked who else, they didn't know. When asked about specific individuals, they said, "maybe, not sure." A bit later, something happened that rocked our church and the answer the youths gave proved to be true. I think that when we try to make this excuse that we wouldn't know a believer from an unbeliever if we only look at the fruit of the HS, it is a form of unbelief (not of salvation before someone reads into it what is not there) not of salvation, but unbelief that God is who He claims to be and does what He claims to do in the lives of His people.

I personally remember as a young kid (I came to Christ at 6 and never looked back) telling God that if people couldn't see Christ in my life, then it wasn't worth it. So I prayed that God would be so alive in me that people would notice, that those who hated Him would hate me for the Christ they see in me. Boy, I had no idea what that prayer would result in and I have no idea the coming trials of that prayer, but it was worth it and continues to be worth it, to see that Christ is alive in me and people recognize it and respond to that Christ. The problem I have with this is two fold. 1. this is when the HS first came upon the believers after Christ's resurrection. IOWs they were just beginning to learn what it was all about to have the HS make His home within us. That doesn't sound like the best way to know what God wants us to know about that indwelling HS. 2. Throughout scripture we are told about the HS and what He does in our lives. Not a single one of those passages points out that the primary evidence of the HS is tongues, in fact, there are places in scripture that suggest that speaking in tongues is not for every believer and that that is okay. So to try to make it an issue of tongues or other showy gifts, removes so much of the teaching of scripture about the HS, that I personally have some real trouble with it.

Well that is my two cents....thanks to the OP for the discussion.

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Razzle, that is an excellent response. Jesus said that He gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him. That is not legalism. That is our Lord telling us truth. But how many want to hide from this truth, for to accept it is to realize there is a cost to remaining in sin in some area of our life, one they may not want to pay. Others are humbled by this truth, for they want to walk obediently, but even with their best efforts, they fail and so do their hopes of ever truly being obedient, let alone holy.

We are promised that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, and yet that is a huge catch 22 situation, for if He gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him, and we cannot obey Him after being baptized in the Holy Spirit, then staying full of the Spirit is a pipe dream, a carrot on a stick, an unreachable ideal. It is a spiritual dilemma without a solution..... unless.....

....unless we have missed something about the new covenant.... and God is now opening our eyes to our savior's call for full surrender, and what we get in return. He promises to CAUSE US to obey! Free indeed is where we are headed but first we must decide that we need it more than our next breath and then.... ASK!

"I shall yet be inquired of by the house of Israel to do it for them."
-Ezekiel 36

Live, bones, live.

Blessings,

Gideon

rockytopva said:

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Just a little bit of ego... Just a tad! And the whole lump is bad! 100%!

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -
Mark 10:25

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The first thing we need to ask is why is there a prevalence with Christian circles to connect the Greek word kauchema (1Cor 5:6) which is best translated as boasting with that of our human ego (or id)? As our ego on its own is neither good nor bad, where an undeveloped or under-realised ego is definitely unhealthy, to the point where a heavily under-realised ego essentially makes one incapable of making a decision where it can become impossible for some to face each new day.

On the other hand, an over-realised or unjustifiable ego in a given area can definitely be unhealthy as it can easily lead us into a false sense of security.

As for saying that “it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a body with human ego”. I would be more inclined to say that even though the Holy Spirit can easily reside within all of us, as we each contain elements of an under-realised ego, it would be virtually impossible for him to do so if someone does not have an ego as this type of person is essentially a vegetable which means that they are almost a non-sentient being.

As for 1Cor 5:6, Paul is certainly justified in criticising the Corinthians for their kauchema where they have apparently been pleased, content and happy to see a fellow member marrying his fathers wife, now this is definitely unhealthy. On the other hand, Paul also says in Rom 4:2 that Abraham was justified with boasting (before man but not God) about how God deemed him to be justified because of his faith in God. In 2Cor 9:2-3 Paul mentions to the Corinthians that he regularly boasts about them where he is concerned that his healthy boasting (kauchema) might turn around and bite him where his confidence (hupostasis) in them might be proven to be wrong. In 1Cor 9:16 Paul also boasts (kauchema) about his ability/ministry with sharing the Gospel.

As the concept of the ego is not a Biblical term, where our ego is neither good nor bad and where even our ability to boast in Christ is healthy, I trust that each Christian on this forum has a strong and healthy ego where over time the Holy Spirit is able to conform our ego into the likeness of Christ enabling us to stand before the world where we can boast with regard to our confidence in Christ.

I would say that simple profession in Christ is enough for salvation. If you want to move into the fullness of God a whole lot has got to be left behind...

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This actually puts you into an awkward position in that you are now moving into a 'works' based soteriology which rejects the work of Christ on the Cross and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - though this is undoubtedly not your intention.

Edit. Line 1, Grammar.

Biblicist2 said:

The first thing we need to ask is why is there a prevalence with Christian circles to connect the Greek word kauchema (1Cor 5:6) which is best translated as boasting with that of our human ego (or id)? As our ego on its own is neither good nor bad, where an undeveloped or under-realised ego is definitely unhealthy, to the point where a heavily under-realised ego essentially makes one incapable of making a decision where it can become impossible for some to face each new day.

On the other hand, an over-realised or unjustifiable ego in a given area can definitely be unhealthy as it can easily lead us into a false sense of security.

As for saying that “it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a body with human ego”. I would be more inclined to say that even though the Holy Spirit can easily reside within all of us, as we each contain elements of an under-realised ego, it would be virtually impossible for him to do so if someone does not have an ego as this type of person is essentially a vegetable which means that they are almost a non-sentient being.

As for 1Cor 5:6, Paul is certainly justified in criticising the Corinthians for their kauchema where they have apparently been pleased, content and happy to see a fellow member marrying his fathers wife, now this is definitely unhealthy. On the other hand, Paul also says in Rom 4:2 that Abraham was justified with boasting (before man but not God) about how God deemed him to be justified because of his faith in God. In 2Cor 9:2-3 Paul mentions to the Corinthians that he regularly boasts about them where he is concerned that his healthy boasting (kauchema) might turn around and bite him where his confidence (hupostasis) in them might be proven to be wrong. In 1Cor 9:16 Paul also boasts (kauchema) about his ability/ministry with sharing the Gospel.

As the concept of the ego is not a Biblical term, where our ego is neither good nor bad and where even our ability to boast in Christ is healthy, I trust that each Christian on this forum has a strong and healthy ego where over time the Holy Spirit is able to conform our ego into the likeness of Christ enabling us to stand before the world where we can boast with regard to our confidence in Christ.


This actually puts you into an awkward position in that you are now moving into a 'works' based soteriology which rejects the work of Christ on the Cross and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - though this is undoubtedly not your intention.

Edit. Line 1, Grammar.

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26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. - Cor 1:26:29

rockytopva said:

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. - Cor 1:26:29

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Was this reply meant for this particular thread?

Biblicist2 said:

Was this reply meant for this particular thread?

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What I am saying is that unction is not ego, and ego is not unction. We live in a generation who has the ego confused with the unction. A path to the unction...

1. Hope - All things begin with a hope
2. Faith - Motivation is a child of faith and hope
3. Charis - Grace - A powerful neighbor of caritas
4. Dynamos - Greek for virtue and motivation
5. Eucharisteo - Much grace... Gratitude
6. Charisomai - Well favored - A lucky kind of feeling
7. Euchrestos - Greek for profitable
8. Chairo - Greek for cheer - "Cheerio mate!"
9. Chara - Greek for joy
10. Chrestotes - An 'Aunt Bee' kind of Goodness
11. Charisma - Heavenly Graciousness
12. Chrisma - Heavenly Anointing - The Holy Grail!
13. Christos - The Christ - The Anointed one

But he giveth more grace (Charis). Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace (Charis) unto the humble. - James 4:6

rockytopva said:

What I am saying is that unction is not ego, and ego is not unction. We live in a generation who has the ego confused with the unction. A path to the unction...

1. Hope - All things begin with a hope
2. Faith - Motivation is a child of faith and hope
3. Charis - Grace - A powerful neighbor of caritas
4. Dynamos - Greek for virtue and motivation
5. Eucharisteo - Much grace... Gratitude
6. Charisomai - Well favored - A lucky kind of feeling
7. Euchrestos - Greek for profitable
8. Chairo - Greek for cheer - "Cheerio mate!"
9. Chara - Greek for joy
10. Chrestotes - An 'Aunt Bee' kind of Goodness
11. Charisma - Heavenly Graciousness
12. Chrisma - Heavenly Anointing - The Holy Grail!
13. Christos - The Christ - The Anointed one

But he giveth more grace (Charis). Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace (Charis) unto the humble. - James 4:6

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Okay, I see your point now. I can agree that on over-realised ego, where ego is admittedly a 20th century word, that if we place an undue amount of reliance on our abilities over that of the Holy Spirit then trouble can arise. There is a provisio (no surprise here) in that once the Holy Spirit begins to regularly outwork through us in a specific Operation, say with healings or prophecy, that this can give us a growing confidence in our ability to function in a certain way, where we can even acknowledge that we can function more efficiently within a specific ministry than many others within our congregation.

This certainly effects our ego where it is boosted by our confidence in the Spirit that we can minister in a specific manner in and through his power. In this situation our ego does not preceed the decision of the Spirit to outwork through us in a certain way, though our ego is certainly strengthened and uplifted by the Spirit.

razzelflabben said:

In fact, we did an informal experiment with a few of the youth in our church (just happened, wasn't planned). Some of the youth were asked who they knew that they had confidence would stand in the face of persecution and not falter. They named two people. When asked who else, they didn't know. When asked about specific individuals, they said, "maybe, not sure." A bit later, something happened that rocked our church and the answer the youths gave proved to be true. I think that when we try to make this excuse that we wouldn't know a believer from an unbeliever if we only look at the fruit of the HS, it is a form of unbelief (not of salvation before someone reads into it what is not there) not of salvation, but unbelief that God is who He claims to be and does what He claims to do in the lives of His people.

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And you think that you know the heart and actions of your church congregants spending an hour or two with them per week when most of that is either preaching or worship time?

I believe that this is why there are so many Christians who put on a 'face' on Sundays. It is because we think that we truly know someone after spending so little time with them, so people are always on their good behavior at church. If we want people to start being 'real', then we need to admit that we don't know most people well enough to even determine. I've seen more actions or what could be deemed fruit from my co-workers.

Also, about the last sentence I believe that the Holy Spirit will only keep taking the Christian as far as they will go in Christ, willingly. What I mean by that is that God has always given us the freedom to choose. Even after salvation, the Holy Spirit does not do anything to us that is against our own will. The Holy Spirit needs a willing vessel, a vessel that desires to change and desires more things that are spiritual/growth in sanctification. That just how the Holy Spirit is.

When we realize that the Holy Spirit works in people to the degree that they embrace, we understand why there are all types of Christians at all levels of the spectrum. It is not lack of God's power to change His people, but lack of desire within His people for spiritual things. God has always been a respecter of persons.

Gideons300 said:

Jesus said that He gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him. That is not legalism. That is our Lord telling us truth. But how many want to hide from this truth, for to accept it is to realize there is a cost to remaining in sin in some area of our life, one they may not want to pay. Others are humbled by this truth, for they want to walk obediently, but even with their best efforts, they fail and so do their hopes of ever truly being obedient, let alone holy.

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Would you read what you just wrote?

You obviously do not understand what takes place when one is born again and made one of Christ's own.

This is MOST DEFINITELY legalism and I'm not sure that you even understand what legalism truly means.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee of salvation and part of our inheritance as children of Christ. That would be basing salvation on obedience which according to the Word and the apostle Paul is a false gospel.

What scripture do you have to support that? (scripture that says that exactly) That our being given the Holy Spirit is predicated on obedience?

Also, how come nobody else is questioning this teaching.

Gid's, we've had our differences but you know I love you brother. You really need to prayerfully and with an open heart and mind let the Holy Spirit lead you to truth in this area. I know that you love the Lord. I know that you only want to speak His truth, but you are wrong on this teaching. It is not biblical, brother.

ToBeLoved said:

And you think that you know the heart and actions of your church congregants spending an hour or two with them per week when most of that is either preaching or worship time?

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???? I know that the behavior of some showed a complete lack of HS power whereas the behavior of others showed that HS power....which was all I was saying....consider this passage, II Tim. 3:10
But know this: Difficult times will come in the last days. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, 4 traitors, reckless, conceited,lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!

Now, this passage tells us to avoid those people who just play christian while living like the world. If we can't tell the difference, how can we stay away from those God tells us to stay away from? In the case I was referring to, there was lovers of self, lovers of money, boasting, pride, ingratitude, unloving, irreconciliation, slander, lack of self control, lack of loving what is good and instead, loving what is evil, traitors, reckless behavior that hurt others severely (physically), conceit, lovers of pleasure that being self gratification...they were holding a form of godliness but denying it's power over sin and death. IOW's living in the things of the world, not the things of the HS and 1 hour a week was more than enough to see this come out, not to mention all the outside of sunday morning services meetings, activities, counseling, and attempts to reconcile. So, maybe, you misspoke in your accusations here?

I believe that this is why there are so many Christians who put on a 'face' on Sundays. It is because we think that we truly know someone after spending so little time with them, so people are always on their good behavior at church. If we want people to start being 'real', then we need to admit that we don't know most people well enough to even determine. I've seen more actions or what could be deemed fruit from my co-workers.

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oh, you are referring to those that judge, not the evidence of their fruit. Well judging itself is sinful and has no place in the church and would fall under those that have a form of godliness but deny it's power. Glad that is cleared up because that isn't what I was referring to at all, in fact, I was putting judgmentalism in the category of those not living in the power of the indwelling HS.

Also, about the last sentence I believe that the Holy Spirit will only keep taking the Christian as far as they will go in Christ, willingly. What I mean by that is that God has always given us the freedom to choose. Even after salvation, the Holy Spirit does not do anything to us that is against our own will. The Holy Spirit needs a willing vessel, a vessel that desires to change and desires more things that are spiritual/growth in sanctification. That just how the Holy Spirit is.

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and when we are living in the power of the HS we will desire to grow and mature in Christ. The person who does not live in the power of the HS is the one that does not want to grow, so what then would your point be? When I am living in the power of the HS, I desire the things of the Spirit. I Cor. 2:14-15 But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.

When we realize that the Holy Spirit works in people to the degree that they embrace, we understand why there are all types of Christians at all levels of the spectrum. It is not lack of God's power to change His people, but lack of desire within His people for spiritual things. God has always been a respecter of persons.

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Now, this makes it sound like you have no understanding of what I am saying at all and that you don't believe scripture when it tells us that the one living in the power of the HS will desire the things of the spirit...Prov 28:5; I Cor. 3:1; Gal. 6:1...just because someone is a new believer and not yet mature doesn't mean the fruit of the Spirit is not present in his/her life. In fact, some of the people I have known who show the power of the HS in their lives the best are the immature, new believers. For most of them, the stark difference the HS makes in their lives is greater, bolder, more evident in the one who has been living a righteous life for years and years and years. So either I am missing your point, or you are missing mine.

ToBeLoved said:

Would you read what you just wrote?

You obviously do not understand what takes place when one is born again and made one of Christ's own.

This is MOST DEFINITELY legalism and I'm not sure that you even understand what legalism truly means.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee of salvation and part of our inheritance as children of Christ. That would be basing salvation on obedience which according to the Word and the apostle Paul is a false gospel....

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again, I'm not sure you understand what is being said....John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commands. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. I John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. I John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, II John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Now, we are specifically talking about the indwelling HS not just Love for God...now sure how one could be filled with the HS without also Loving God, but whatever...John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. ...specifies the dwelling of the living God, so again, I'm not sure you are hearing what is actually being said. How we live our lives is an extension of the indwelling HS. IOW's obedience is not how we come to salvation, but rather an evidence of salvation that has already come to us through the working of the Christ.

What scripture do you have to support that? (scripture that says that exactly) That our being given the Holy Spirit is predicated on obedience?

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see above.

razzelflabben said:

again, I'm not sure you understand what is being said....John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commands. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. I John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. I John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, II John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Now, we are specifically talking about the indwelling HS not just Love for God...now sure how one could be filled with the HS without also Loving God, but whatever...John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. ...specifies the dwelling of the living God, so again, I'm not sure you are hearing what is actually being said. How we live our lives is an extension of the indwelling HS. IOW's obedience is not how we come to salvation, but rather an evidence of salvation that has already come to us through the working of the Christ. see above.

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You do not understand the gospel and what happens when one is born-again. Read Romans 4-8

Loving God is not a pre-requisite to salvation. Belief and faith are what is needed for salvation and it is by grace (unmerited favor, Him doing for us what we could NEVER do for ourselves). One does not understand spiritual things until one receives the Holy Spirit. Before that no one knows how to be spiritual and love God. No one. That is why God, the Son came to earth to live a sinless life.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
"13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things,"


Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

razzelflabben said:

again, I'm not sure you understand what is being said....John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commands. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. I John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. I John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, II John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Now, we are specifically talking about the indwelling HS not just Love for God...now sure how one could be filled with the HS without also Loving God, but whatever...John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. ...specifies the dwelling of the living God, so again, I'm not sure you are hearing what is actually being said. How we live our lives is an extension of the indwelling HS. IOW's obedience is not how we come to salvation, but rather an evidence of salvation that has already come to us through the working of the Christ. see above.

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These are verses that prove that we receive the Holy Spirit through obedience?

None of the verses that you've selected even contain the words 'Holy Spirit'. Are you kidding me?