Your stand on homosexuality?

0000 said:

Brother, you are deceiving yourself on a stratospheric level if you think even for a moment that you are somehow either incapable of being tempted or incapable of falling into temptation.

Click to expand...

"Brother" you do not understand the power of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to renew the mind and understanding from that of fallen mankind to that of the risen Lord of Glory. That's too bad for you...

I guess poor little 'ol Jesus has no weapons to give us to put satan in his place where our personal lives are concerned.

Lots of religious people believe this tripe, but that's not what God's Word teaches.

I've provided God's word for you, I've provided the saints words for you and I've also provided what I believe is sound logic and reasoning and you stayed silent. I was open to hearing good counter-arguments (because in no way do I believe I'm infallible), but all you did was make claim after claim and when questioned, you don't answer a single one of the many questions that I posed in response to those claims. Throwing opinions on the table with a, "Here's what I believe: accept it!" mentality, without attempting to explain or validate what you say (using Scripture, logic, or any writings from the early Church fathers), in my experience, tends to, at times, lead to fruitless discussion.

Lastly, if you don't consider me a brother (even though I believe and accept the same Lord you believe in), then that's unfortunate, but please don't take offense at me for not beating around the bush when it comes to what I firmly believe is the truth.

Farm Truck said:

"Brother" you do not understand the power of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to renew the mind and understanding from that of fallen mankind to that of the risen Lord of Glory. That's too bad for you...

I guess poor little 'ol Jesus has no weapons to give us to put satan in his place where our personal lives are concerned.

Lots of religious people believe this tripe, but that's not what God's Word teaches.

Click to expand...

Are you saying you don't sin?

0000 said:

I've provided God's word for you, I've provided the saints words for you and I've also provided what I believe is sound logic and reasoning and you stayed silent. I was open to hearing good counter-arguments (because in no way do I believe I'm infallible), but all you did was make claim after claim and when questioned, you don't answer a single one of the many questions that I posed in response to those claims. Throwing opinions on the table with a, "Here's what I believe: accept it!" mentality, without attempting to explain or validate what you say (using Scripture, logic, or any writings from the early Church fathers), in my experience, tends to, at times, lead to fruitless discussion.

Lastly, if you don't consider me a brother (even though I believe and accept the same Lord you believe in), then that's unfortunate, but please don't take offense at me for not beating around the bush when it comes to what I firmly believe is the truth.

Click to expand...

You know that a sin is a sin, right? You've never looked at a woman with a heart and thoughts of lust?

If you lust in your heart, that is the same as committing adultery. One who commits adultery is part of that verse that you previously listed that will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's the problem when 'we' (human beings) judge sin, we see certain sins as big sins and others as smaller sins. God does not see it that way. By the Law in the Old Testament, if you broke the Law of Moses one time, you were guilty of breaking it all.

ToBeLoved said:

You know that a sin is a sin, right?

Click to expand...

On the surface, I'd like to say "yes", but having read the rest of your comment, I'm starting to believe that we may differ on what sin truly means.

So let me ask you this: If a lustful thought should arise within me - a thought I didn't ask for - a thought I reject - a thought I don't dwell on - is that sin in your eyes?

ToBeLoved said:

You've never looked at a woman with a heart and thoughts of lust? If you lust in your heart, that is the same as committing adultery. One who commits adultery is part of that verse that you previously listed that will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Click to expand...

You guys really need to put an end to these drive-by posts and at the very least read through the last few pages to get an idea of what's been said, because the argument you're presenting has probably already been addressed.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/your-stand-on-homosexuality.7719943/page-18#post-68263470

ToBeLoved said:

That's the problem when 'we' (human beings) judge sin, we see certain sins as big sins and others as smaller sins.

Click to expand...

You're right. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us that all who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Has anyone denied this?

0000 said:

On the surface, I'd like to say "yes", but having read the rest of your comment, I'm starting to believe that we may differ on what sin truly means.

So let me ask you this: If a lustful thought should arise within me - a thought I didn't ask for - a thought I reject - a thought I don't dwell on - is that sin in your eyes?

Click to expand...

Yup. It's sin in God's eyes too. Each thought is either spiritual (of God) or carnal (of the flesh). They cannot be both. God is perfection, that's 100%, no sin-no bad thoughts.

0000 said:

You're right. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us that all who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Has anyone denied this?

Click to expand...

My point is, is that in God's eyes all sin is sin. Only blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is talked about in the Bible as an unforgivable sin, so if I or you or us, we commit any sin than we are no better in God's eyes than any other person who sins. That's my point.

Jesus said that when a sin is forgiven, it is cast as far as the east is from the west. Never to be brought up again. Gone, finished, bye-bye. Somehow as humans we do not understand this concept.

ToBeLoved said:

Yup. It's sin in God's eyes too.

Click to expand...

Can you provide Scriptural evidence to support your claim?

ToBeLoved said:

God is perfection, that's 100%, no sin-no bad thoughts.

Click to expand...

Right, but we're not God. So I don't see how you make the connection between God = no sin-no bad thoughts and evil thoughts arising involuntarily within mankind = sin.

This is WHY God put in the high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ (see 1 John 1:9)

But, that doesn't mean whatever hot button issues you have in your life that satan can push to get you to either sin or be sorely tempt to... cannot be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit within as He leads you in to truth that renews your mind so your problems areas are no longer a problem because you have... passed satan's test.

That's the problem with many Christians is they do not believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

That's too bad for you cause God made it available to you cause you need it to walk in power!

FT, OliviaMay asked a question above that I'd like to know the answer to as well. Do you sin?

0000 said:

Do you sin?

Click to expand...

Sin of commission... knowingly and willfully sin on purpose?
No.

Sin of omission as in falling short of absolute perfection and sometimes doing / saying things I'm not aware of as being sin?
Yes.

A "sinner" is someone who either has not been born again, or is someone who has but refuses to be led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ - usually due to erroneous religious teaching brought about by not accepting God's written Word as being legitimate.

So, am I a sinner??? Nope, I sure ain't... how 'bout you?

Farm Truck said:

Sin of commission... knowingly and willfully sin on purpose?
No.

Sin of omission as in falling short of absolute perfection and sometimes doing / saying things I'm not aware of as being sin?
Yes.

A "sinner" is someone who either has not been born again, or is someone who has but refuses to be led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ - usually due to erroneous religious teaching brought about by not accepting God's written Word as being legitimate.

So, am I a sinner??? Nope, I sure ain't... how 'bout you?

Click to expand...

I think the question was 'Do you sin'?

Sin is CLEARLY defined in the Word. It is any act that is contrary to the complete holiness of God.

What's all this 'knowingly' and 'willfully' stuff?

What you are trying, very badly to do is to redefine sin so that you can say that you do not sin.

God is CLEAR about what is a sin. Sin and holiness is black and white.

God's Holiness = no sin

Non-Holiness = sin

Let's not try to redefine the word sin to suit our own personal agenda. You can dilude yourself, that is fine and your choice but the Biblical definition of sin remains the same.

Farm Truck said:

Sin of commission... knowingly and willfully sin on purpose?
No.

Sin of omission as in falling short of absolute perfection and sometimes doing / saying things I'm not aware of as being sin?
Yes.

Click to expand...

For the sake of not derailing this thread into exegetical oblivion, let's attempt to get to the heart of the matter by assuming for a moment that you don't sin willfully. Which of these positions do you then maintain:

1) That you knowingly sin unwillingly? Meaning you don't sin willfully, but there are times when you are well aware that you're forced, against your will, to do or say something that is objectively evil?

2) Or are you telling me that you are never tempted, that you never sin willingly and that you also never (knowingly) sin unwillingly either? That you have literally no conscious recollection whatsoever of a moment where you were fully aware that you were in the midst of personal sin?

FYI: Though I'm certain we don't agree on what born again truly means, let's say that the above is with regard to your spiritual state after having been "born-again."

ToBeLoved said:

I think the question was 'Do you sin'?

Sin is CLEARLY defined in the Word. It is any act that is contrary to the complete holiness of God.

What's all this 'knowingly' and 'willfully' stuff?

What you are trying, very badly to do is to redefine sin so that you can say that you do not sin.

God is CLEAR about what is a sin. Sin and holiness is black and white.

God's Holiness = no sin

Non-Holiness = sin

Let's not try to redefine the word sin to suit our own personal agenda. You can dilude yourself, that is fine and your choice but the Biblical definition of sin remains the same.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you on this. I do think there is a distinction that can be made of sins done deliberately and those perhaps not. But what's the difference? It's like shooting an arrow at a bullseye and deliberately missing vrs not paying attention to the sights (and missing). In both cases, you missed. And clearly, whatever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:23) I can't imagine anyone living up to the perfect holy standard of God. We fall short.

That said, if we are in Christ, we are new creatures. Our identity in Christ is not one of sinners saved by grace but that of Saints of God! It is our identity in Christ that matters here. Yes, I fall short. But no, my identity is not that I'm a sinner. I am a saint. The Bible makes this clear. Other thoughts on this will be appreciated.

Farm Truck said:

A "sinner" is someone who either has not been born again, or is someone who has but refuses to be led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ - usually due to erroneous religious teaching brought about by not accepting God's written Word as being legitimate.

Click to expand...

That does seem to be what 1 John 3:9 says
Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

Farm Truck said:

God says in His Word that those who practice this and other sins of the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, meaning they will go to hell.

So, if being gay is not a choice and is not a product of one's environment... apparently God is unfair and unjust cause they will burn if they do not repent and turn from their sin as is required with any sinful lifestyle.

Click to expand...

We know from the Word that the only unforgivable sin is blashphemy of the Holy Spirit. All should plead their case to the Lord and seek repentance for sexual sins, not only homosexuals but heterosexual sin also. God is very clear on 'sexual sin' in general, not only homosexual sin.

ToBeLoved said:

Yup. It's sin in God's eyes too. Each thought is either spiritual (of God) or carnal (of the flesh). They cannot be both. God is perfection, that's 100%, no sin-no bad thoughts.

Click to expand...

That is not entirely true - the devil and insert thoughts into your head, so also can God - not all of your thoughts - are your own.

BobRyan said:

That is not entirely true - the devil and insert thoughts into your head, so also can God - not all of your thoughts - are your own.

Click to expand...

When I say that either thoughts or actions are either spiritual or carnal is making a distinction that we can fill our hearts and minds with the things of God/doing the will of God (spiritual-with thoughts of God, His will, prayer, worship) or those that are carnal (fleshly-what I want or what will make me happy (self).

If the devil would put thoughts in our heads, we can choose to ignore them. The Word tells us that if we resist the devil, that he will flee from us.

ken777 said:

That does seem to be what 1 John 3:9 says
Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

Click to expand...

However, the translation of the word 'no' in this verse could have another meaning, because one language is never perfect in translating another language.

This is how this verse is translated in the NIV version

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

One of the Bible resources that I love is called Bible Hub and there is a 'Parallel' option that will list the same verse in about 15 Bible versions on the same page, as well as like verses and commentaries. You can see a sample of what it looks like here http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-9.htm I highly recommend it. You must choose the 'Parallel' option from the top toolbar though to get this type of page, but it is wonderful.

Sometimes I like to see all the versions or wording, because I like the NKJV, but it can be hard to read sometimes. Also, if you are not sure what a verse is saying, on the Bible Hub site, under "Parallel" they also include 2 or 3 different Commentary's, including the Matthew Henry commentary.

BobRyan said:

the devil and insert thoughts into your head,

Click to expand...

Pop-religion seems to believe that. Is there any Biblical evidence?