The Trinity
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justlookinla
Regular Member
It's my contention that "Lord" in the passage should not be translated as "God" for the reasons I've given several times now.
Once more...."Kyrios" has several meanings. If the writer would have meant "God" in the passage, he would have used the same word that he used to indicated that the Father is God. He didn't do that though, he used a term which was different in order to distinguish between the God in the verse and the one who isn't God.
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razzelflabben
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hum...so you are suggesting that the HS is teaching you to ignore the context so that you can continue to assert that Jesus is not LORD (God). Sorry, I don't buy it, but you are free to believe what you want. Context has everything to do with written lang. As you were shown, the subject here is Jesus and according to the Lexicon (remember the Lexicon is our primary source for translation, only second to learning ancient Hebrew and Greek ourselves and even then the Lexicon is ready for reference) so, according to the Lexicon, kyrios when referring to subject, Jesus is always translated God the Messiah. To further complicate your explanation, theos (God) is used throughout the bible when referring to Jesus...so the same word you are insisting on is only talking about God the Father is throughout scripture used in reference to Jesus...so since you didn't want to answer my first question on how to reconcile this with anything other then, "cause I say so", let me ask another question. I will bold it so you don't miss it.
When scripture uses the word theos (in this passage, the word or God) in reference to Jesus, what does it mean? What is the alternate meaning for the word theos (God)?
and yet, every time the subject of kyrios is Jesus as it is in this verse, it means God the Messiah, so you still are only using the argument "cause I say so"...look, it isn't my job to convince anyone of anything, but when you are asked to explain your opinion with something other than "cause I say so" I expect that out of courtesy is not brotherly Love that you would at least attempt to do so. So, in hopes that you do have an answer just aren't understanding the question, let me ask it another way, again bolded just so you don't miss it.
Since the Lexicon says that kyrios is always translated "God the Messiah" when referring to Jesus, why in this verse would we find an exception to that rule? What in this verse tells us there should be an exception to the rule and what is the alternate meaning for "God the Messiah"?
Now, let's take our discussion one step further, just so we are clear about what the passage says and can't mislead people through wise sounding arguments. You see, making sure we understand the passage and cannot mislead others through wise sounding arguments is an act of the indwelling HS. So, let's look at the context of this verse we keep talking about....I quote it from Holman Christian Standard Bible because I find them to be readable but closest to the original text.
Verse 5-11
5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, the attitude we are talking about here if we go to the previous verses is humility, as in what did Christ deny Himself that we might live.
6 who, existing in the form of God, existing in the form of God, not just with the indwelling HS or the image of God that all men have, but the very form of God....before you try to go down the translation issue here though, we will allow at the moment for any word you want to put there, just for the moment.
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage. Notice that again, we see the point is that of humility. IOW's it was humility and not some position that caused Jesus to not see Himself equal with God. Remember when I talked about this in a long post and you all told me to show it in scripture and I said it was all there, look for it yourself. This one was right in the text that you are trying to argue and you didn't even read it. It was humility that caused Him to be in submission to God not status or position or role or whatever you try to make up.
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men. Now, we get to His taking on the likeness of a man. Notice that He was not a man, but in His humble state, took on that likeness. He accepted the form of man. Now the real question here is who but God can choose to take on or not take on the likeness of a man?
And when He had come as a man
in His external form, again, we see that He chose to come as a man, but it was only the clothes or in this passage the external form that was a man, He did not give up His deity to be a man.
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.9 For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name, I'm thinking this should be of importance to anyone seeking the truth of trinity and not just trying to proof text something. God gave Him a new name...now, think about the discussion we have been having about kyrios and theos, both names....God gave this God/man a new name and that name was Jesus. Notice He didn't demote Him or remove His God nature, He just gave Him an new name, a name that we could associate with, a name that was greater than all others because He is the Messiah.
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. Here in is another truth to His identity as God, that every knee shall bow, bowing is a show of authority, so Jesus authority is one of absolute in that every knee shall bow. Absolute authority is given only to deity. And all this, to glorify, remember we are talking about humility, not the fleshly man Jesus, but the God man Jesus who submitted Himself out of obedience and humility to the Father who remained in Heaven. One God, two distinct parts/manifestations/persons/whatever semantic word you want to use.
Now, we have made the case for the deity of Christ in this one passage alone through grammar, word meaning, totality of scripture, context, logic, and your lack of evidence for changing the word meanings. Sounds pretty solid evidence that Jesus is indeed LORD (God)
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justlookinla
Regular Member
No, I'm asserting that the HS is interpreting in context. There's only one God in the verse and the HS knows it.....and it's God the Father.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
So you refuse to look at the verse as God commands us to do when we study scripture...that explains a lot of the reason you and I disagree on this topic
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justlookinla
Regular Member
I've looked at the verse and explained how to correctly interpret it according to both context. Stop trying to rewrite it
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razzelflabben
Contributor
I have not rewritten anything, I have applied proper study to the text and showed you through word study, context, totality of scripture, etc. that your interpretation is wrong. If that is what you want to insist on, we are done talking because I take scripture seriously even when it tells us to study to show ourselves approved and that we need to make sure we are rightly dividing the word. If you want to add something from scripture, not just your assertions of being right, let me know so we can continue, as long as all you want to offer is "cause I say so" we are done.
BTW, you have not provided anything from the context that would tell us to interpret it the way you are trying to...even if you provided context to support your position would be refreshing.
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justlookinla
Regular Member
I've explained over and over. Once more, in context, the writer of the verse (Paul) wrote as the HS inspired him to write. He identified one God in the passage, the Father. He did not identify Jesus in the same manner as he identified the Father for Jesus wasn't to be identified in the same manner as the Father....He was different. He didn't exist in the same manner as the Father. Paul, and the HS, was aware that if Jesus was identified in the same manner as the Father, the verse would be polytheistic, i.e, Jesus God glorifying Father God therefore there's only one God in the passage (in context).....the Father.
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Psalm 110:1, whether read from the original Hebrew, Masoretic text, or Greek Septuagint, distinguishes the Most High God from his servant, Jesus Christ. The fact that his verse is referenced over and again in the New Testament gives us the assurance as to its significance and relevance to God's order of things. We do not see Jesus as being "co-equal" to God here or any where else in the Bible. Hebrews 2 is an excellent depiction of the relationship between the Son of God and God Himself and one of the many references to Psalm 110:
Hebrews 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, (Psalm 8:4-5)
“What is man, that You (the one God) are mindful of him,
or the son of man (Jesus Christ), that You (the one God) care for him?
7You (God) made him (Jesus Christ) for a little while lower than the angels;
You (God) have crowned him (Jesus Christ) with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
11 For he who sanctifies (Jesus Christ) and those who are sanctified (believers in Jesus Christ) all have ONE SOURCE. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying,
“I (Jesus) will tell of Your (the One God) name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I (Jesus) will sing Your (the One God) praise.” (Psalm 22:22)
13 And again,
“I (Jesus) will put my trust in Him (the One God).” (Psalm 18:2; Isa 8:17; 12:2)
And again,
“Behold, I (Jesus) and the children God has GIVEN me.” (Isaiah 8:18)
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things…
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
God the Father is the Source of Jesus and everything else. Jesus puts his trust in God. Jesus is our brother (who we are co-heirs with). Jesus is faithful to God. Jesus is a servant of God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not "co-equal" to God.
Hebrews 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, (Psalm 8:4-5)
“What is man, that You (the one God) are mindful of him,
or the son of man (Jesus Christ), that You (the one God) care for him?
7You (God) made him (Jesus Christ) for a little while lower than the angels;
You (God) have crowned him (Jesus Christ) with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
11 For he who sanctifies (Jesus Christ) and those who are sanctified (believers in Jesus Christ) all have ONE SOURCE. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying,
“I (Jesus) will tell of Your (the One God) name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I (Jesus) will sing Your (the One God) praise.” (Psalm 22:22)
13 And again,
“I (Jesus) will put my trust in Him (the One God).” (Psalm 18:2; Isa 8:17; 12:2)
And again,
“Behold, I (Jesus) and the children God has GIVEN me.” (Isaiah 8:18)
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things…
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
God the Father is the Source of Jesus and everything else. Jesus puts his trust in God. Jesus is our brother (who we are co-heirs with). Jesus is faithful to God. Jesus is a servant of God. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not "co-equal" to God.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
not according to word study. According to word study, He identified ONE God with two personifications/manifestations/whatever semantic we want to use.
Oh and btw, that isn't context, do you know what context is?
well, according to word study, Jesus was identified as God the Messiah whereas the Father was identified as God the Father, notice both are referred to as "God"
different and yet the same, which is the core of trinity belief.
ah....that is the very core of understanding of trinity belief, that God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS exist in different ways, for different purposes, yet only One God....so maybe your removing context from understanding because you simply don't understand what trinity belief is?
Like most things, you have been shown that that is not consistent with trinity belief, nor is it a necessary consequence of the proper understanding of the passage from the standpoint of word study, totality of scripture, context, etc. In fact, it is only in your own head that that would be the outcome of what is being said, so maybe, instead of you having a problem with understanding what context is, or what trinity doctrine believes, your problem lies in your unwillingness or inability to hear anything being said in scripture or on this thread?
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razzelflabben
Contributor
we had this talk, where do you come down on the arguments that were already presented on the topic of coequal?
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justlookinla
Regular Member
I know exactly what context is. That's why I'm not taking the passage out of context in spite of your continued efforts to do so.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
honey, looking at the passage in the "context" of the discussion is NOT taking the passage out of context and if that is what you think context is, you do need a crash course in reading comprehension.
Look at the Phil. 2:11 passage, it begins part way through the sentence. In order to keep it in context, it is important to look at the entire sentence and even the discussion that leads to that sentence. That is to look at the context, it is not to remove the context. In fact, refusing to look at the entire passage as per what is going on, as you have done, is to remove context as you accuse me of doing.
websters defines context this way...
: the words that are used with a certain word or phrase and that help to explain its meaning
: the situation in which something happens : the group of conditions that exist where and when something happens
so you see, it isn't me removing context, that is just more of the false accusations we have seen from quite a few of the non trinitarians on this thread. Instead, you need to offer some context to defend your interpretation, along with some word study and totality of scripture at the least. I will give you that you did try some word study, but it was not very well done, removed context and didn't include both words in question to name two of the huge problems with your attempt to prove your case. So again, if you can't offer something that is more than "cause I say so" we must be done because you aren't offering anything meaningful to the discussion at hand for us to consider.
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justlookinla
Regular Member
That's precisely what I've been doing for quite a while now.....looking at the entire passage. In context, it's speaking of one being who is specifically identified as God, God the Father, and it's speaking of another being who isn't identified in the same manner as God and that different being is Jesus Christ.
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Crowns&Laurels
Well-Known Member
If Jesus was not God, he would not have the power that God ordained solely to Himself for Christianity to have any truth in it.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
when did you look at the entire passage? I missed that post. You didn't even look at the entire sentence. In fact, here is the sentence.....
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In fact, the sentence is at the end of a discussion about the humility of Christ. A humility so great that He gave us His whole Godness to take on the manness that we are familiar with. That is the context, as I have shown you...so please, show me the post in which you offered anything with context in it. The entire sentence itself shows your interpretation wrong, in fact, it shows Jesus to be absolute authority, something that is reserved for God. So as I previously pointed out in my post that went into context, the deity of Christ is without question in this passage.
Now, show me your post about context, both entire sentence and discussion in which you can dismiss all the clearly stated claims of Jesus deity. I realize I might have gone too fast with all the word study, context, totality of scripture stuff I threw at you, so we can break it apart, we will start with context since you claim to have provided some but even a review of the thread leaves we wondering where it is, cause I can't find it at all, not even an attempt at it. In fact, the best I can find is you dismissing word study to assert your claims.
Let's pretend for a second that you are right and look at just the sentence context and nothing more at this point in our discussion. Why, if Jesus is not being proclaimed here to being God, is He given the authority that belongs to God alone? You see, every knee bowing and every tongue confessing is a recognition of the authority of the ONE and only God and yet it is an authority being given in the context of verse 11 (as in the entire sentence) to Jesus the Christ. So, if you are brave enough to look at context, you need to find a way to explain how Jesus is given absolute authority that belongs only to God if the word study that we did was wrong that you are right and it isn't proclaiming Jesus to be God.
What is troubling me right now, is that you are dismissing word study, ignoring context, and proclaiming yourself to be right, when scripture tells us how dangerous such things are. So have a go of it, show in context how to reconcile the discrepancy your way and we will come back to word study when and if we can break through some of the crust that has formed over your mind. Now, to explain what I am saying here, crust keeps us from seeing into the center, iow's it is not me saying I am right and you are wrong, it is saying that neither of us can get to the root of the discussion until or unless both of us are willing to do what I have been showing you how to do, a study of the word that allows us to rightly divide the word of God. No matter if I am right or you are right truth cannot be found until or unless one is willing to not dismiss things they don't like and instead, cling to what effective study of the word says no matter where it takes us. I have shown a willingness to do this, waiting for you to do the same.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
and the passage currently on the table, in the context of the biblical discussion as well as the complete sentence in question, shows Jesus having the same authority as God...iow's same power, same authority, etc. It is only when we remove context and word study that we can even pretend to come to an understanding of non trinity proportions here.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
Your question is not a clear one, it is a statement and a question. You are posing a thought "If God was not triune", then you ask how would that change everything?". This is like an atheist asking, If God did not exist how would that change everything? The thing is, God does exist and God is one in being three in persons. The Tri Unity is the revelation of the true God. So to try and imagine God any other way is to imagine a different God or no God and not reality.
The bible is very clear about the Tri Unity of the Godhead. The issue often comes down to is the Son of God eternally existant, and yes he is. If the Son of God can be shown sent from the father and the Spirit then the one God in all three can be seen . We see this clearly in different verses. like 1 saiah 48:12-17
"12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go." (Isaiah 48:12-16 KJV)
and Jesus was the one sent,
"57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: " (John 6:57 KJV)
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justlookinla
Regular Member
Jesus had all the power His God and Father gave Him. Jesus was the anointed one, lacking in no way.
He didn't need to be God for that to be true.
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