Messianic Jews?

Dave-W · Jun 4, 2015

Greetings in Messiah to my SDA brothers!

I grew up near Andrews Univ. and was surrounded by Adventists. So there is much in these discussions that I can relate to. I ended up in the Messianic Jewish world, and I am wondering if Adventism has had any contact or opinions of the modern Messianic Movement. As fellow Sabbath keepers, we have much in common.

Ubuntu · Jun 5, 2015

I have nothing but respect for messianic Jews, although I cannot say that I know any of them in person. I remember meeting some very easygoing messianic Jews when I visited Israel, though…

I'm not sure whether or not there have been any contact between the adventists and MJs on a denominational level, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

When it comes to my opinion about messianic Jews… Well, first of all I'd like to point out that God surely has many children among messianic Jews. I'm not into all the intricacies of the messianic faith, but there definitively are a few important differences between adventists and messianic Jews.

To name a few:

Our views on eschatology (including Israel) are quite different. Adventists are usually in agreement with the replacement theology. My gut feeling is that we also have very different views about the ritual laws, circumcision and the feasts. We abstain from unclean meats because we believe these regulations originally were given from a health perspective, thus we believe that they also apply in the Christian age. (My feeling is that the health perspective often is lacking among MJs who follow the dietary laws.) In other words, like most Christians we believe that the ritual laws were fulfilled (and abolished) by Jesus, but that the moral laws and (the health laws) still applies.

Now, I'm aware that there are differences of opinion within the messianic faith about these things as well, but these are some important differences.

Dave-W · Jun 29, 2015

Oh yes - we are vehemently AGAINST replacement theology or fulfillment theology or whatever the latest twist on it is called.

THere are a few different camps in the MJ world on some of the other issues. There is a sizable minority that are the "One Law" group that insists on full Torah observance for everyone including gentile christians. I am of the more mainstream MJ view that Acts 15 killed that idea. Torah observance is still legitimate (in a post-temple New Covenant way) for Jewish believers but not necessarily for gentile believers. That is what we see as coming out of the council in Acts 15. Same Gospel, just differing observances based on a variety of factors. Men and women have differing requirements; as do slaves (employees) and masters; and parents and children do as well.

tall73 · Jun 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Greetings in Messiah to my SDA brothers!

I grew up near Andrews Univ. and was surrounded by Adventists. So there is much in these discussions that I can relate to. I ended up in the Messianic Jewish world, and I am wondering if Adventism has had any contact or opinions of the modern Messianic Movement. As fellow Sabbath keepers, we have much in common.

You might want to check out some info on Jacques Doukhan as far as Messianics and the Adventist church.

Jacques R. Doukhan
https://www.andrews.edu/sem/faculty_staff/faculty/jacques-doukhan.html

This book describes his take on Israel and the Church.
http://www.amazon.com/Jacques-Doukhan-Israel-Church-Paperback/dp/B00RWS24A2

I found it an interesting read.

I have not read this one yet, but looks like it could cover some fascinating topics as well:

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mystery_of_Israel.html?id=ChZ-4fLlqO8C

This is a PDF on what Adventists could learn from the Jewish approach to Sabbath.
http://lasierra.edu/fileadmin/documents/religion/asrs/ASRS-Papers-2010-01-Doukhan.pdf

Ministry magazine articles:
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/authors/doukhan-jacques-b

Dave-W · Jul 1, 2015

Thanks! He looks familiar so I may have crossed paths with him on some occasion. I will check out his book.

Adventist Heretic · Jul 14, 2015

In the last 2 yeas I have come into contact with the Messianics, they have something to offer, to SDA, espically in the area of the festivals. It would be a big help if there was more contact. I see a potential merge if SDA's could straighten out some of there theology. They would listen to Messianics, because the sabbath is not in question

Dave-W · Jul 24, 2015

icedragon101 said:
In the last 2 yeas I have come into contact with the Messianics, they have something to offer, to SDA, especially in the area of the festivals. It would be a big help if there was more contact. I see a potential merge if SDA's could straighten out some of there theology. They would listen to Messianics, because the sabbath is not in question

I agree.

EastCoastRemnant · Jul 24, 2015

icedragon101 said:
In the last 2 yeas I have come into contact with the Messianics, they have something to offer, to SDA, espically in the area of the festivals.

What could we possibly learn about ordinances that were fulfilled at Christ's death? Are we to learn that Jesus fulfilling the types wasn't good enough and that we have to still keep them?? For what purpose... ?

Dave-W · Jul 27, 2015

EastCoastRemnant said:
What could we possibly learn about ordinances that were fulfilled at Christ's death? Are we to learn that Jesus fulfilling the types wasn't good enough and that we have to still keep them?? For what purpose... ?

That may have been what he meant by "if SDA's could straighten out some of their theology."

EastCoastRemnant · Jul 27, 2015

So you think it's bad theology to suppose that Christ was the perfect fulfillment of the feasts? How do you see the feasts in relation to Christ's mission?

Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping the feasts after Christ's death?

Dave-W · Jul 28, 2015

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "fulfillment." That He kept them perfectly and hence fulfilled them that way, there can be no question. But if you mean that He did away with them; that is taking the wrong meaning of fulfillment. Remember - HE fulfilled the Sabbath as well. Has that been done away as well?

All of the feasts of Leviticus 23 - STARTING with the Sabbath - are promises by God to be present with His people. In Hebrew the term is "moadim" or appointed times. Those times are set by God to visit us. Every Saturday. Every Passover. Every Shavuot (pentecost) Every Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur. And especially Every Feast of Tabernacles. While all the previous festivals are given SPECIFICALLY to Israel, Tabernacles is also given to the nations in Zechariah.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

The purpose of the feasts in a New Covenant environment is to celebrate together God's goodness.

EastCoastRemnant · Jul 28, 2015

Is there any reference for your ascertain that the Christian church kept the feasts? We know that they kept the Sabbath, part of the moral Law but no mention that I'm aware of keeping the ceremonial.

Adventist Heretic · Jul 29, 2015

EastCoastRemnant said:
So you think it's bad theology to suppose that Christ was the perfect fulfillment of the feasts?Yes. the fall feast have not yet happened.

How do you see the feasts in relation to Christ's mission? the spring feast were about his first coming and the fall feast are about his second coming.

Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping the feasts after Christ's death?

Click to expand...

to focus on his work and to Highlight specific teaching

visionary · Jul 30, 2015

Ubuntu said:
I have nothing but respect for messianic Jews, although I cannot say that I know any of them in person. I remember meeting some very easygoing messianic Jews when I visited Israel, though…

I'm not sure whether or not there have been any contact between the adventists and MJs on a denominational level, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

When it comes to my opinion about messianic Jews… Well, first of all I'd like to point out that God surely has many children among messianic Jews. I'm not into all the intricacies of the messianic faith, but there definitively are a few important differences between adventists and messianic Jews.

To name a few:

Our views on eschatology (including Israel) are quite different. Adventists are usually in agreement with the replacement theology. My gut feeling is that we also have very different views about the ritual laws, circumcision and the feasts. We abstain from unclean meats because we believe these regulations originally were given from a health perspective, thus we believe that they also apply in the Christian age. (My feeling is that the health perspective often is lacking among MJs who follow the dietary laws.) In other words, like most Christians we believe that the ritual laws were fulfilled (and abolished) by Jesus, but that the moral laws and (the health laws) still applies.

Now, I'm aware that there are differences of opinion within the messianic faith about these things as well, but these are some important differences.

EGW spoke of the feasts.. saying something about being "in the same manner" that the spring feasts were fulfilled so also will the fall feasts.

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, “the first fruits of them that slept,” a sample of all the resurrected just, whose “vile body” shall be changed, and “fashioned like unto His glorious body.” Verse 20; Philippians 3:21. GC 399.3

In like manner the types which relate to the second advent must be fulfilled at the time pointed out in the symbolic GC 399.4

Has anyone studied to figure out what she mean by that?

Ubuntu · Jul 30, 2015

visionary said:
EGW spoke of the feasts.. saying something about being "in the same manner" that the spring feasts were fulfilled so also will the fall feasts.

Has anyone studied to figure out what she mean by that?

There is certainly much to learn from the Jewish economy. The feasts were a symbolic representation of the plan of salvation, and adventists would agree with messianic Jews that it's a pity that the study of the feasts have been neglected in much of Christianity. However, adventists in general believe that we shouldn't keep them.

About your EGW quotes. The first quote (about the wave sheaf) needs to be understood in the light of what adventists think about the dead. They are unconscious and know nothing, (Psalms 6:5, Psalms 88:12, Ecclesiastes 9:5) they will rest in their graves (Acts of the apostles 2:34) until the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) when Jesus will return and gather the entire harvest to heaven. Thus, unlike much of Christendom we don't believe that heaven is filled with the souls of the dead. There are only a few humans in heaven today, 24 elders who function as representatives of the human race to the unfallen intelligent beings in the Universe. Jesus returned to heaven as a “wave sheaf”, a taste of the coming harvest which won't happen until his second coming. (Ellen White doesn't mention this in this passage, but we actually also believe that he brought a few humans with him to heaven at his ascension in order to fulfil the type. See Matthew 27:53, Revelation 4:4.)

Your second quote is a little misleading because you quote just a single sentence. Here is your second quote in its full context:

“In like manner the types which relate to the second advent must be fulfilled at the time pointed out in the symbolic service. Under the Mosaic system the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month (Leviticus 16:29-34), when the high priest, having made an atonement for all Israel, and thus removed their sins from the sanctuary, came forth and blessed the people. So it was believed that Christ, our great High Priest, would appear to purify the earth by the destruction of sin and sinners, and to bless His waiting people with immortality. The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the twenty-second of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord’s coming. This was in harmony with the proofs already presented that the 2300 days would terminate in the autumn, and the conclusion seemed irresistible.“

As you see she is giving a historical portrayal of the advent revival and talks about how the Millerites believed that Jesus would return in 1844. The Millerites believed that the day of atonement was a type that referred to the return of Jesus, and that's how the types “relate to the second advent.” Official adventist theology builds on the Millerite foundation and states that Jesus in October 1844 begun a ministry in the Holy of Holies which is the antitypical Day of Atonement.

In other words, in official adventist thought even the Day of Atonement have been fulfilled. Keeping the fall feasts are therefore as unnecessary as keeping the spring feasts. But again, although the types are fulfilled by Christ this doesn't mean that we should stop studying them.

visionary · Jul 30, 2015

So what is the "shadow of things to come" that is regarding the feasts? Is that not an indication that "in the same manner" that the first coming is an example of the second coming... might even be down to 3 1/2 year ministry like Jesus did the first time before the fulfillment of the spring feasts, but only for the fall feasts this time....??

tall73 · Aug 2, 2015

EastCoastRemnant said:
Is there any reference for your ascertain that the Christian church kept the feasts? We know that they kept the Sabbath, part of the moral Law but no mention that I'm aware of keeping the ceremonial.

Just to add some things to think about:

Act 18:18 After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.

Act 18:20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Act 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

The Jewish believers went right on keeping the law because Jesus was the Messiah they had expected. They would not have reached "myriads", or tens of thousands, in Jerusalem had they not observed the law.

Ubuntu · Aug 2, 2015

tall73 said:
Just to add some things to think about:
[...]
The Jewish believers went right on keeping the law because Jesus was the Messiah they had expected. They would not have reached "myriads", or tens of thousands, in Jerusalem had they not observed the law.

About law-keeping and Paul. I strongly recommend Ellen White's take on this. The following quote is taken from the Act of the Apostles. Here Ellen White explicitly teach that the brethren in Jerusalem was mistaken in regard to the ceremonial law. It's somewhat long, but it is quite illuminating, so please take the time to consider the following:

* * *

«Throughout his ministry, Paul had looked to God for direct guidance. At the same time, he had been very careful to labor in harmony with the decisions of the general council at Jerusalem, and as a result the churches were “established in the faith, and increased in number daily.” Acts 16:5. And now, notwithstanding the lack of sympathy shown him by some, he found comfort in the consciousness that he had done his duty in encouraging in his converts a spirit of loyalty, generosity, and brotherly love, as revealed on this occasion in the liberal contributions which he was enabled to place before the Jewish elders. {AA 402.2}

After the presentation of the gifts, Paul “declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.” This recital of facts brought to the hearts of all, even of those who had been doubting, the conviction that the blessing of heaven had accompanied his labors. “When they heard it, they glorified the Lord.” They felt that the methods of labor pursued by the apostle bore the signet of Heaven. The liberal contributions lying before them added weight to the testimony of the apostle concerning the faithfulness of the new churches established among the Gentiles. The men who, while numbered among those who were in charge of the work at Jerusalem, had urged that arbitrary measures of control be adopted, saw Paul’s ministry in a new light and were convinced that their own course had been wrong, that they had been held in bondage by Jewish customs and traditions, and that the work of the gospel had been greatly hindered by their failure to recognize that the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile had been broken down by the death of Christ. {AA 402.3}

This was the golden opportunity for all the leading brethren to confess frankly that God had wrought through Paul, and that at times they had erred in permitting the reports of his enemies to arouse their jealousy and prejudice. But instead of uniting in an effort to do justice to the one who had been injured, they gave him counsel which showed that they still cherished a feeling that Paul should be held largely responsible for the existing prejudice. They did not stand nobly in his defense, endeavoring to show the disaffected ones where they were wrong, but sought to effect a compromise by counseling him to pursue a course which in their opinion would remove all cause for misapprehension. {AA 403.1}

“Thou seest, brother,” they said, in response to his testimony, “how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.” {AA 403.2}

The brethren hoped that Paul, by following the course suggested, might give a decisive contradiction to the false reports concerning him. They assured him that the decision of the former council concerning the Gentile converts and the ceremonial law, still held good. But the advice now given was not consistent with that decision. The Spirit of God did not prompt this instruction; it was the fruit of cowardice. The leaders of the church in Jerusalem knew that by non-conformity to the ceremonial law, Christians would bring upon themselves the hatred of the Jews and expose themselves to persecution. The Sanhedrin was doing its utmost to hinder the progress of the gospel. Men were chosen by this body to follow up the apostles, especially Paul, and in every possible way to oppose their work. Should the believers in Christ be condemned before the Sanhedrin as breakers of the law, they would suffer swift and severe punishment as apostates from the Jewish faith. {AA 404.1}

Many of the Jews who had accepted the gospel still cherished a regard for the ceremonial law and were only too willing to make unwise concessions, hoping thus to gain the confidence of their countrymen, to remove their prejudice, and to win them to faith in Christ as the world’s Redeemer. Paul realized that so long as many of the leading members of the church at Jerusalem should continue to cherish prejudice against him, they would work constantly to counteract his influence. He felt that if by any reasonable concession he could win them to the truth he would remove a great obstacle to the success of the gospel in other places. But he was not authorized of God to concede as much as they asked. {AA 405.1}

When we think of Paul’s great desire to be in harmony with his brethren, his tenderness toward the weak in the faith, his reverence for the apostles who had been with Christ, and for James, the brother of the Lord, and his purpose to become all things to all men so far as he could without sacrificing principle—when we think of all this, it is less surprising that he was constrained to deviate from the firm, decided course that he had hitherto followed. But instead of accomplishing the desired object, his efforts for conciliation only precipitated the crisis, hastened his predicted sufferings, and resulted in separating him from his brethren, depriving the church of one of its strongest pillars, and bringing sorrow to Christian hearts in every land.»

visionary · Aug 2, 2015

That sounds like a mistake that needs to be undone. While we may not change the opinion of the Jews, we can certainly live up to God's standards. So do you think it was unwise that the Jerusalem council just mentioned four laws for Gentiles? Have we suffered the consequences of the decision since? It is like the Jerusalem council decision was the start of the split between the Jewish believers and Gentiles. How do we reconcile this?

Ubuntu · Aug 2, 2015

Well, what Ellen White says here is that the Church in Jerusalem conformed to the ceremonial law, but this was done in order to escape persecution from the Jews. This was an “unwise concession” and it was the “fruit of cowardice”.

Thus, we shouldn't repeat the fatal error of the Church in Jerusalem. The Church paid the price for this error when its foremost champion and defender was put into prison as a result of trying to avoid controversy and please the Jews.

By conforming to the ceremonial law without any authorization from God, the Jewish believers indeed were (partly) responsible for the backlash that later occurred against things that falsely were called “Jewish”. When the Church later became dominated by gentiles, the Sabbath and the dietary laws eventually were rejected, and this is without a doubt because gentiles later misunderstood Paul's warnings against those that insisted that circumcision and conformity to the ritual laws was necessary.

From an adventist point of view the Old Covenant and its ritual laws are rendered obsolete by the New Covenant. Both gentile believers and believers of Jewish descent are no longer under any obligation to follow the ritual laws. Yet, we're all bound by the “Law of Freedom” (James 2:12), the moral law which includes the Sabbath.

Adventists would also argue that there are certain Old Testament laws that we shouldn't think of as “ritual laws”. Laws prohibiting eating unclean food (including blood) were first and foremost given from the point of view of health, not due to ritual considerations. Healthy living is just as important today as 2000 years ago, so these regulations are still in place, for “gentiles” and “Jews” alike.

Messianic Jews?

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

wayfaring stranger

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Sophia7's husband

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Senior Veteran

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

I Must Decrease That He May Increase

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

I Must Decrease That He May Increase

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

I Must Decrease That He May Increase

Senior Veteran

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

wayfaring stranger

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Sophia7's husband

wayfaring stranger

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

wayfaring stranger

Similar threads