What's heretical about "ecumenism"? (Orthodox POV only)

Christos Anesti

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Our goal as Orthodox in Ecumenism is "to make disciples of all nations", and to bring these people to the Orthodox faith.

They used to call that evangelization and not "ecumenism". Why label it "ecumenism" then? I have no doubt that some of the people involved make use of the organizations and opportunities of modern ecumenism (the World Council of Churches, the various discussions that are organized, etc) as vehicles to spread Orthodoxy, to teach Protestant and Roman Catholics to abandoned their churches, and embrace the true faith, etc. Often I've heard Orthodox participants mimic the modern evangelical line that it is wrong to "steal sheep" though! It's one thing to use the front of ecumenism to do something other than ecumenism (ie evanglization) but people often seem to join in the worldview of ecumenism.


There already is a method for communion with Orthodox. It's rather simple. You become a cathecumen in the Church. We don't need to unite "Churches". We need to unite persons to the Orthodox Church. If a person goes into a World Council of Churches meeting (for example) with this in mind then they might do some good. Then again if doing so is against the wishes of the founders and the intent of the very organization in question and they therefore need to keep their true motives on the down low (be subtle about it, etc) so to speak they might confuse the Orthodox who see them participate. The Orthodox faithful who see this will worry if he has actually bought into the mindset that formulated the organization to begin with.
 
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Christos Anesti

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The disunity of self professed Christians is a scandal to the world and a hindrance to the proclamation of the Gospel.
It is, we need to unite all peoples to Christ's Holy Church.

I wasn't implying that all the criteria people used to come to the pro-ecumenical conclusion do not have some basis in truth. I'm pointing out the differing manners of determining Orthodoxy. By the use of logic or by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Human logic might be right and it might be wrong. There is no certainty there. When the Spirit speaks there is certainty. When the Saints and monastic elders speak out against ecumenism I get the impression they are basing it less on a set of arguments they pondered intellectually and more on the Spirit witnessing to the truth in their heart. They are so enmeshed in the Spirit of Orthodoxy that they can "smell" so to speak if something is pure or impure. This is the gift of discernment. Do you get what I'm saying? The supporters of ecumenism at least to my perception tend to operate more in a western intellectualist manner on this issue. They have "thought it all out and it seems like a good idea".
 
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88Devin07

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They used to call that evangelizing and not "ecumenism". Why label it "ecumenism" then? I have no doubt that some of the people involved make use of the organizations and opportunities of modern ecumenism (the World Council of Churches, the various discussions that organized, etc) as vehicles to spread Orthodoxy, to teach Protestant and Roman Catholics to abandoned their churches, and embrace the true faith, etc. Often I've heard Orthodox participants mimic the modern evangelical line that it is wrong to "steal sheep" though! It's one thing to use the front of ecumenism to do something other than ecumenism (ie evanglization) but people often seem to join in the worldview of ecumenism.

There already is a method for communion with Orthodox. It's rather simple. You become a cathecumen in the Church. We don't need to unite "Churches". We need to unite persons to the Orthodox Church. If a person goes into a World Council of Churches meeting (for example) with this in mind then they might do some good. Then again if doing so is against the wishes of the founders and the intent of the very organization in question and they therefore need to keep their true motives on down low (be subtle about it, etc) so to speak they might confuse the Orthodox who see them participate. The Orthodox faithful who see this will worry if he has actually bought into the mindset that formulated the organization to begin with.

The thing is though, I don't participate in my class or in these groups with the intention of convincing others of my position. I don't have a direct intent to convert them.

Take the Anglican Church as an example... Our Ecumenical relations (back in the day) brought our two Churches closer to one another, and many Anglicans took Orthodox under their wings (well, that is, they allowed us to temporarily use buildings, etc...), and we helped to show them the way back to the true faith.
However, the Anglican Church has since been drawing farther and farther from the truth and from the Church. Thus our Ecumenical Relations have changed and our Churches are no longer close...

As for uniting "Churches", I simply see it as mass evangelism. If, one day, in the next few centuries, the Roman Catholic Church is reunited with the Orthodox, I see that as being a successful mass evangelism of them. They ARE entered into the Church.

I don't think it's any different than other mass conversions... Look at Guatemala where about 500,000 people converted to Orthodoxy en-masse. Was that wrong simply because it wasn't each individual member coming and converting on their own?
Or what about those who converted and entered the Antiochian Orthodox Church en-masse just a few decades ago?
And the Churches, whether Anglican, Catholic, or whatever, that decide as Parishes to enter into the Church...

Ecumenism (that is, not the heresy) is just mass evangelism. But is isn't the type of evangelism we are familiar with. Ecumenism is simply dialogue, learning what one another believes, and showing how we live our faith out. It leads to many things, mutual understanding, cooperation, and in some cases, through the Holy Spirit, our Churches grow closer to one another.

Look at the Oriental Orthodox for example... Would we have such good relations with them, and would we realize they are essentially Orthodox if we never entered into extensive dialogue with them?

How would we know the state of other Christians if we don't enter into dialogue with them?

Ecumenism is a way to learn about one another, learn from one another, come closer to one another... It is a way to help improve relations and prevent isolation and ignorance.

It is simply just stupid to sit back and isolate yourself in your own world, not learning about other people. We see what this does, World War I and World War II were not just political fights, but were fights amongst people and faiths. One nation isolated itself from another and became "nationalistic", each nation held this as a central value, and it exploded into all out warfare.

Look at the West today... It has been isolated from Islam for centuries, and has been in continual war with Muslims for centuries. There is no understanding between the two, no productive dialogue.
Orthodox have been amongst Muslims for many centuries, and from what I can tell, while there were times of persecution, Muslims tend to understand Orthodox much better than they understand other Christians.
Why is this? This is because they weren't isolated from us, they lived amongst us and around us daily, talking with us etc...

When you don't have dialogue with people around you, not only do you eliminate many chances for evangelism, but you create opportunities for misunderstanding, ignorance, distrust and prejudice.

Orthodox Christians must be involved with ecumenical dialogue. But we must not remember who we are, and what we are. We are the One, True Church, and there is none other like her.
 
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88Devin07

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I wasn't implying that all the criteria people used to come to the pro-ecumenical conclusion do not have some basis in truth. I'm pointing out the differing manners of determining Orthodoxy. By the use of logic or by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Human logic might be right and it might be wrong. There is no certainty there. When the Spirit speaks there is certainty. When the Saints and monastic elders speak out against ecumenism I get the impression they are basing it less on a set of arguments they pondered intellectually and more on the Spirit witnessing to the truth in their heart. They are so enmeshed in the Spirit of Orthodoxy that they can "smell" so to speak if something is pure or impure. This is the gift of discernment. Do you get what I'm saying? The supporters of ecumenism at least to my perception tend to operate more in a western intellectualist manner on this issue. They have "thought it all out and it seems like a good idea".

I venerate our Holy Elders, but even they can be wrong. Especially since they do not live amongst "the world".
Its kind of like this (in my opinion)... If you are someone living "in the world" and seeking to live the ascetic life in the world, and married to a loved one with children. It might not be a very good idea to seek advice and spiritual guidance/penance from a monastic.
Same reason we are told (as people in the world) to read works like the Ladder of Divine Ascent with care, because they were written primarily for monastics, and while we can take many things from it, we still must be careful not to confuse the two.

Monks and Nuns are still human, and still prone to error. Even being more advanced in theosis doesn't mean one is infallible. Even the Saints themselves aren't infallible. (as we have seen for example with St. Augustine)

We must carefully look at their witness and see if it is consistent with the Church, her teachings, her traditions, her Fathers & Saints etc...
 
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ArmyMatt

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umm... is this actually an Orthodox teaching? I've only encountered this belief in Protestant eschatology.

if the whole world is gonna worship the Antichrist as God, then he will either form a new religion and force conversion, or allow people to carry on whatever they want, just so long as they recognize him as their Lord, so yeah, he will unite all relgions under himself somehow.
Ecumenism isn't about seeking communion and con-celebration, it's about showing people the Ancient Faith, and showing them the way back.

ideally, I could not agree more, but the ecumenical services where they worship together always seem to go hand in hand with the talks. the Orthodox are always present at some Mass or something with a Pope who prayed in a mosque facing Mecca, or his predecessor who removed crosses in his own RC churches so the Dali Lama could put up his Buddha idols.
 
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Andrew21091

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Yikes, an old thread with some unsavory posts written by yours truly. A brief disclaimer concerning those posts. I no longer hold the borderline Old Calendarist views that I did when those were written. I ask forgiveness to anyone that I've offended by writing them. When I held that mindset, I had little love for others. I'm ashamed.

Please forgive me.
 
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howdydave

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One of the basics that I was taught as a catechumen was:

"As an Orthodox Christian I can state with absolute certainty that Orthodoxy is within God's Church."
"As an Orthodox Christian I can not state with absolute certainty what is OUTSIDE of God's Church."

Let's not confuse Ecumenicism with Universalism.

One of the big things that attracted me to Orthodoxy in the firstplace is the fact that "I don't know" is a valid doctrinal answer.
 
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Nikti

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I don't have anything to contribute about specifics concerning ecumenism, but as a non-Orthodox who is very interested in joining Orthodoxy, I'm kinda inclined to agree with the fact that the Orthodox Church should take a rigid position when it comes to ecumenism impeding on Orthodox tradition. However (I'm sure some of you may agree to some extent), I really feel like the Orthodox could make more of a presence as christians in the West, we are in real need of some... I knew nothing about Orthodoxy until I was really looking into church history and even so it was with a motivation to avoid Catholicism. If I hadn't of been so acutely aware of the straying of Rome I may have completely missed the Orthodox Church. For me the Orthodox Church is like a pearl, it's beautiful and very precious in its purity but at the moment where I am from it's hard to find. There is also an impression that it's ethnocentric and exclusive, I hope that doesn't come off wrong but it's certainly how I felt at first.

That's my two cents, I'm sure as Orthodox christians you may identify potential ways to elevate the position of the lamp(the church) some which has already been mentioned so that others may see it's light.
 
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ArmyMatt

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However (I'm sure some of you may agree to some extent), I really feel like the Orthodox could make more of a presence as christians in the West, we are in real need of some...

very good point, and we should also remember that for the first 1000 years of Christianity in the West, the West was Orthodox. I think that can help get the word out when people realize that Orthodoxy is their spiritual heritage too.
 
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Dialogist

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What is so heretical about "ecumenism"?


Christ is in our midst!

Explanation:
I've been pondering this for several weeks now... We all know about the growing controversy about how many Orthodox (as well as former Orthodox in schism) condemn some hierarchs for "ecumenism" and say it's heresy. However, I have yet to read anything "heretical" from any of these "heretical" hierarchs.

Let me clarify something first of all... I believe that the so-called "branch theory" is outright heresy and IMO is what was condemned as "Ecumenism". However, I believe the modern "ecumenical movement" from the Orthodox POV is not heresy.

Examples:
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has been repeatedly condemned by many for doing such things as meeting with the Pope, engaging in discussions with Roman Catholics, etc...

We even saw (or read) that Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev was shouted down in Church for being a heretic, but what did he ever say that was so "heretical"? (from what I read, he acknowledged that we aren't in communion w/ RCC and communion should never be administered except in very rare cases)

We know about the controversy of the Esphigmenou monastery, as well as other Old Calendarist Churches and "True Orthodox Churches". who are in schism because of the "ecumenical movement" as well as other controversies, esp. related to the EP.

Even the mere presence of Orthodox clergy/bishops in the WCC has called many to condemn them of heresy.

Soap Box:
So I would like to ask, what is so heretical about "ecumenism"? The heresy that was condemned as heresy was pretty much the modern view of the "branch theory". However, there is no Orthodox Christian that accepts this viewpoint, not His All-Holiness +Bartholomew, not Metropolitan Hilarion, not the Orthodox members of the WCC. So what exactly are they condemning?

In my opinion, the modern "ecumenical movement" is completely Orthodox. We are to seek communion with all Christians. We are the One Church, and it is our job to seek to bring the whole world under our wing. This cannot happen if we are an island unto ourselves.
The only way to bring people to Orthodoxy is through discussion. How can they know the way if we don't talk with them?
None of our Bishops believe that any other Church is also the true Church. None accept the "two lung theory" promoted by Pope John Paul II, and none accept the "branch theory". We recognize that the Roman Catholic Church must return to Orthodoxy and reject it's post-schism heresies and mistakes.

On the issue of ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholics... I read that the EP stated that we are looking for a return of communion between Roman Catholics and Orthodox. Yet he is surprisingly chastised for saying this. What is wrong with this?
We should be seeking the return of full communion between the RCC and our Church. Not for the mere sake of union or the ecumenical movement, but because of our call as the Church. The RCC are our brothers, but they are removed from the family. They have been in schism for over 1000 years, they have fallen into false teachings and heresies, they have lost their Apostolic Succession. So it is only right that us, as the Holy Orthodox Church, seek to lead them back home.
What is so wrong about this? I have yet to see any Orthodox bishop say that we are one in the same Church, and that we are completely equivalent and communion should be immediately restored.

As for relations with other faiths... Peace can only come about through dialogue. How can these other faiths understand us if we isolate ourselves from them? We know that every faith has a grain of the truth. However, we also recognize that we are the only ones with the fullness of the truth.

Question:
I'm sorry for dragging on, and I know I may be preaching to the choir. But I would like to know what is so wrong about all this, that leads many Orthodox, including monastics, to condemn others, and to even enter into schism with the Church that they are trying so hard to defend. Is it a simply misunderstanding, or do they truly believe that these things are heresy?

Forgive me.



Note: I'm not doing this as flamebait, and I'm not looking to start a fight. I honestly am confused about the whole situation. There is so much material out there, much that is bias to one side or the other that it is hard for me to get a good read on the situation. I would like this discussion to stay constructive please.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff.

I think a discussion in general terms could go on to the point where it would no longer be necessary, since the Lord will have returned.

Perhaps we could dwell on one specific point in the above for discussion. Any suggestions?
 
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Dialogist

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For ArmyMatt and 88Devin07..
Unrelated to the OP but I was reading this a while ago about Orthodox eschatology and I found it very interesting and it's in depth and lengthy too which I like :)

http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE BOOK OF THE END 7.5X9.25.htm#_ftnref173

I had heard somewhere that the author, Vladimir Moss, is a schismatic, not that it makes any difference. In any case, he seems to quote extensively from Archbishop Averky's exposition on Revelation, which seems to be accepted as the best modern one.

Also interesting, I think, is Dr. (Presbytera) Eugenia Constantinou's thesis on Andrew of Caesarea's commentary on Apocalypse. It contains the first English translation on what I think is the oldest known patristic commentary on the complete book. [Warning - the link will download a 106Mb document]
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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very good point, and we should also remember that for the first 1000 years of Christianity in the West, the West was Orthodox. I think that can help get the word out when people realize that Orthodoxy is their spiritual heritage too.

neat formulation Army, but true.
The Orthodox church is as pointed out by Nikti a bit exclusive or at least it feels like it for a westerner.
More liturgy in english (at least in Norway using Russian and church slovanic if not Greek makes it very etnhosentric), more presence during the hollidays (such as Christmas and Easter).
More like, I dont know, put the word out that youre actually present??

Commenting on the increase of secularism in the west by the patriarchs and clergy in Orthodoxy.
Make your voice heared regardless of numbers and amount of parishoners, remember Elijah and the "few hundereds that hadnt falled to Bahal".

Elijah raised his voice despite being heavily outnumbered and so I think the Orthodox church should do.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Orthodox church is as pointed out by Nikti a bit exclusive or at least it feels like it for a westerner.

it's the model of St John Maximovitch. he helped the West to remember their Orthodox past. hopefully more Westerners come home and bring that heritage to be sanctified by the Church.
 
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dzheremi

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All monotheistic religion is by nature exclusive. God says He is one, and we would never dispute that, but then suddenly when He says He established one church and not 500 or whatever, people want to dispute that? For heaven's sake, why? A lot of people seem to have trouble with what God has established when it means that they can't just have whatever they want. That's what's wrong with ecumenism, in practical terms. "I'm okay, you're okay" doesn't work if you're actually believing wrongly and worshiping wrongly and living wrongly, because none of that is okay. It's wrong to believe, worship, and live in contradiction to what has been given to us by the our fathers and masters the apostles, who learned from Christ Himself, and from those who learned from them what is the perfect faith, worship, and life that is found in the Orthodox Christian religion in its totality.

Ecumenists don't like that, generally. "How can you claim that you're XYZ!", as though it is literally impossible for anyone to actually be right about something, and to not therefore defer to someone whose ecclesiastical, theological, etc. standards are much less strict. Well, I believe that Christ is right, and perfect in righteousness as in all things, so I believe the Church He established is too (and of course I believe that my Church is that Church, or else I'd be somewhere else). It's not that hard.

Just one heretic's/schimatic's opinion, anyway. ;)
 
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