American brand Christianity....where is this mess going?

An interesting note: I know someone who saw mainstream Christianity as hypocritical and domineering, and immersed herself in Wicca.

She joined an organization of other Wiccans and spiritualists, and attended weekly services in the group's building. She got involved, and helped run different ministries within the fellowship.

Right now she is planning to quit, because everything she was disgusted about in the Christian church, is happening in her Wiccan church. Focus on donations, mistreatment of volunteers, pastoral dominance, arguments over doctrines, topic-of-the-month fads, the church treating her like they own her, and demanding things of her throughout the week.

Humans are humans.

Perhaps the faulty structure is not the doctrine, but the realities of having a building and wanting a single leader. A single leader needs to be compensated somehow, unless wealthy retirees and millionaires offer to lead.

Members need to be trained, and completely commit to a shared structure, if they are to follow an ideal leaderless system. We won't have a shared structure unless individuals rise up in their gifts. They won't rise up unless they are taught that they can and should.

I have had experiences with communal groups, and they still depend on coordinators to keep the order. There are a lot of followers-implementers, even when people have distinct skills and tendencies.

I have been to post-communist countries where everyone is riled up about not being under "the man," but they still look to others to get the ball rolling. Human nature is one of the obstacles to a shared leadership system -- there will always be people who want someone else to do the work, initiate, or set the standards.

But ideally, we should not allow one figurehead to be over others. It takes a very thorough retraining of mindsets, for people to understand who they are in Christ and within the Church Body.

The NT model divides the roles into personality traits (ICor 12, Eph 4):

Evangelist /instigator/visionary /herald / bringer of good news

Pastor /shepherd/mentor/counselor/mediator/(middle child rather than first-born tendencies)

Teacher /information organizer/scholar/reader/trainer

Prophet /intuitive/listener/one operating on a less linear time-based mentality

Healers /administering miraculous solutions/caring about physical needs

Miracles / builds faith where people are discouraged or treading water/ conduit for God's power / vessel

Administrators / organizers/ directors/ pilots steering /captains / facility managers / HR coordinators / financial accountants

Apostles/Delegates/messengers/formal representatives sent out

Helpers / Those who can understand another's vision, and implement it in detail

Tongues / diversity coordinators / interpreters / those who bring together diverse cultures and backgrounds, languages and beliefs, and explain how everyone can come together under one common purpose. (The Acts 2 tongues)

We need each others' strengths, to provide the balance needed in a group. We also need to have the guts to be who God designed us to be, even if we get flack for it.

1. Pastor glorification still happening
..they are perpetuating a false model of church government: Pastors only with the "Board of Elders" who are businessmen vs. Biblically qualified Elders who were meant to give oversight along with every ministry functioning under their watchful eye, not them Lording it over nor them ... perpetuating the falseness of a pastors ministry OVER everyone else's.

Click to expand...

Stefos said:

Hi everyone,

I'm saddened & VERY leery of what I've been seeing in modern American Christianity....What I've seen:

1. Pastor glorification still happening

It's going to take the Lord to strip this aside.

2. The glorification of Israel vs. being blood bought & redeemed by Jesus

Why is the modern nation of Israel always being called "God's chosen people?"

In actuality, Christians are "God's Chosen people."

This is not to mean that the covenants, etc. God made with the nation of Israel didn't matter BUT that the summation of ALL things is Christ...Not "being Jewish" & the subsequent "Loving Israel" slogan I see & hear so often.

3. Evangelical Christians "leaders" & believers on T.V. saying "Church attendance is at an all time low."

I would say that they are perpetuating a false model of church government: Pastors only with the "Board of Elders" who are businessmen vs. Biblically qualified Elders who were meant to give oversight along with every ministry functioning under their watchful eye, not them Lording it over nor them being the "Go to people" week after week.

I would also say that they are perpetuating the falseness of a pastors ministry OVER everyone else's.

Where is this American mess going?

I'm very concerned because when I try to preach the gospel because I want to share without even using the words "Christianity" & "Church" because I want people to understand Biblical Christianity BUT people have been so conditioned here in the U.S. about "Christianity" and "Church" that they think they know where the conversation is going & think and speak out of their conditioning!.........Think about this.

Modern American Christianity is a strange amalgamation of so many different teachings which are part truth, part "Law of Moses" and part traditions of men.......A smorgasbord!

Subsequently, When a person accepts the Lord in their heart & confesses with their mouth the Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father...Where do these American Christians bring him or her?...........To American Christianity?
It's a mixture and I feel sorry for people who are brought to a denomination.

Saints...Listen, pray for our brothers & sisters in these places called denominations because they've abnegated their ministries & have laid them at the feet of "Pastor."
Not only that but they are perpetuating an ultimately warped gospel & false church model.

Right? Pray & ask the Lord to speak to you about these salient issues.
They DO matter to him.......See what He says
Stefos........God bless you AS you put God first Amen

Click to expand...

I personally find replacement theology an abomination and those who espouse to be blind.

Adonai NEVER has abandoned Y'Israel. You sir strive against scripture!

For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. Zechariah

He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
1 Chronicals

Far too many "believers" have scant knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures and as such believe the kind of rubbish that says Israel is nothing, the Church has replaced Israel... both are LIES

Your preaching is ineffective because your walk does not bear witness to what you say. NO ONE comes to Messiah because they "lost an argument" It is NOT your job to sell someone in conversion. It is your job to be HOLY as Adonai is HOLY. It is your job to WALK the SAME way that Messiah walked.

That's not my opinion its what scripture tells us

1 John 1:4 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


So what is this "light?" Scripture declares "Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path." Ps 119:105

But what WORD is it speaking of????


The truth is rarely accept and is routinely rejected because men prefer the deeds of darkness refusing to come into the light....

Yeshua says I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN can come to my Father but by me...

John tells us in the beginning was the Word.... that it became flesh and dwelt among us. There is that WORD again... WHAT WORD?????

The answer to this will largely be rejected by those who claim to be believers because of what it then requires... they will find any excuse under the sun to ignore this truth... will twist and distort scripture....

And then they come wondering why the "church" is so screwed up....

Stefos said:

I'm not teaching Replacement Theology but rather this:

Paul taught that salvation comes through faith in Christ and not being Jewish.

Paul taught that a portion of Israel will be saved, not the entire race.

Paul taught that the covenants, promises, etc. were first and foremost given to Israel and that the Gentiles were grafted in.

Please don't put words into my mouth.
The brief experience I've had with so called "Messianic" believers is that they tend to brag about being Jewish and the chosen people of God.

This has zero place in any circles where Jesus is Messiah!
There is no excuse for the hubris that has come from "being Jewish."

Salvation is based on faith and repentance with works eventually manifesting because of the faith and repentance NOT because we work for it.

Stefos

Click to expand...

That is not my experience nor am I Jewish.

Every man or woman thought out the history of mankind has been saved the same way since the moment Adam and Eve fell. BY FAITH.

What then of the Torah? Law? What purpose does it serve? Why was it instituted?

Faith without works is dead. You can argue all you want but scripture is very, very, very clear on this topic... the problem is as I outlined earlier. Men prefer the darkness. No one is saved by keeping the Torah. Not before Messiah or since his coming.

Most christains I have met and know over the last 50+ years of my life reject the Torah and the commandments. What then? Why do we see James state the following regarding Pauls return to Jerusalem in Acts 21

18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

Now you are faced with a very difficult position here. You have James who is the head of the early church appointed by the Apostles and Elders to this position and hence by G-d. You him CLEARLY teaching that walking in obedience to the Torah IS PROPER.

The Torah is called Wisdom. It is called a tree of life. A light unto my feet. It is call the WAY in which a man should go. It is called truth.

When Yeshua declares I am the way, the truth and the life NO ONE can come to the Father but though me... he is declaring that he is the LIVING TORAH! Before you brush that aside. The Gospel of John starts out by saying IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD. The word was with G-d and the word was G-d.


WHAT WORD is John speaking of? Since the NT had not been canonized it is pretty clear that John is speaking of the Torah.

1 John says that we are called to walk in the light and that IF we profess to follow Yeshua, that we will walk as he walked.

1 John 2: 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

How did Messiah walk and how did he live? In Torah observance and obedience.

Yeshua being G-d KNEW the heart of man and knew that the gentiles would pollute the truth by replacing it with their traditions just as the Pharisees did prior to the coming of Messiah.

He openly, plain states :
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [c]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Because the gentile church 1700 years ago removed any association with anything Jewish we have lost MUCH of the understanding of what was going on. Scripture was written BY JEWS, largely TO JEWS in a JEWISH setting and in a Jewish Culture Context. If one does not understand the idioms and cultural context you will miss much that is being said and come away with twisted understand.

Stefos said:

Look, John isn't speaking of the Law of Moses but of the Logos of God.
The Logos is a Greek word, not a Hebrew one.
You can get the gist of it by looking at an ancient Greek book of philosophy.

Adam & Eve never received 10 commandments but 1 only.

Abraham had ZERO commandments as such but probably had the testimony of Noah who lived by faith and who was a "preacher" of righteousness.

Moses and Israel and the giving of the law are a type and shadow, namely of the church that didn't want to live by faith but was selfish.
The law was given, scripture says, to see how sinful sin is.

Please don't think I'm advocating sin nor am I touting "keeping the Law" as you put it. As Paul said the "Law is good and the commandment is perfect." It's not about throwing out the Law which is actually 613 commandments and not the 10 etched on stone.
Incidentally THESE 10 were put in the ark of the covenant and not the other 603! Think about that for a while.........

After Jesus died, tithing was done away, sacrifices were done away, the MANDATORY keeping of the festivals were done away with also.

The real issue is LOVE...loving God first and our neighbor as ourselves.

Finally,
Please stop discussing Theology here...it is the wrong forum.
Also please stop being agressive/combative.....If you want to argue, do it by yourself.

God bless you as you walk with a clear conscience before him,
Stefos

Click to expand...

First and Foremost I am not being aggressive or combative I have no idea why you think that.

Secondly I am giving an answer to the question posed.

Stefos said:

Sorry for ANY misunderstanding.
I do apologize.

However this thread is not about "theology" per se but rather house churches and cell groups.

My stance is "read the word and let it tell you how the believers gathered and under what kind of oversight."

We find Elders & Apostles speaking w/one another because Apostles planted and Elders oversaw. We also see deacons or "servants" as the Greek word means that. Extra biblical evidence such as the Letter of Pliny to Trajan reveal that women deacons existed: Pliny had 2 women deacons tortured!

We find Prophets, Evangelists going around to various locations in an itinerary way.

We see Teachers and Pastors given to the local expressions and NOT with mega world wide churches that they "Pastor" or "Teach" over.

American Christianity is Priestianity & Pastorianity NOT biblical Christianity.

Let's not forget........the word is very simple and clear about this.
Stefos

Click to expand...

It was ALL modeled after the JEWISH synagogue. It is impossible to understand what you are reading in a vacuum. You have to look at the cultural and historical context.

For example, In Asia Minor, which was ALL Roman occupied territory, you have few choices as to where you belonged. You could ONLY participate in the Temples approved by Rome. As such the concept of a "house church" would have been expressly forbidden by Rome, punishable by death.

There is a massive difference between meeting and sharing at home and that being the church. At least during the apostolic era. Gentiles would have met in the JEWISH synagogue since during the apostolic era, followers of Yeshua were considered by both ROME AND Jerusalem as a sect of JUDAISM

you make a lot of assumptions for someone you dont know at all

Stefos said:

Hi everyone,

I'm saddened & VERY leery of what I've been seeing in modern American Christianity....What I've seen:

1. Pastor glorification still happening

It's going to take the Lord to strip this aside.

2. The glorification of Israel vs. being blood bought & redeemed by Jesus

Why is the modern nation of Israel always being called "God's chosen people?"

In actuality, Christians are "God's Chosen people."

This is not to mean that the covenants, etc. God made with the nation of Israel didn't matter BUT that the summation of ALL things is Christ...Not "being Jewish" & the subsequent "Loving Israel" slogan I see & hear so often.

3. Evangelical Christians "leaders" & believers on T.V. saying "Church attendance is at an all time low."

I would say that they are perpetuating a false model of church government: Pastors only with the "Board of Elders" who are businessmen vs. Biblically qualified Elders who were meant to give oversight along with every ministry functioning under their watchful eye, not them Lording it over nor them being the "Go to people" week after week.

I would also say that they are perpetuating the falseness of a pastors ministry OVER everyone else's.

Where is this American mess going?

I'm very concerned because when I try to preach the gospel because I want to share without even using the words "Christianity" & "Church" because I want people to understand Biblical Christianity BUT people have been so conditioned here in the U.S. about "Christianity" and "Church" that they think they know where the conversation is going & think and speak out of their conditioning!.........Think about this.

Modern American Christianity is a strange amalgamation of so many different teachings which are part truth, part "Law of Moses" and part traditions of men.......A smorgasbord!

Subsequently, When a person accepts the Lord in their heart & confesses with their mouth the Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father...Where do these American Christians bring him or her?...........To American Christianity?
It's a mixture and I feel sorry for people who are brought to a denomination.

Saints...Listen, pray for our brothers & sisters in these places called denominations because they've abnegated their ministries & have laid them at the feet of "Pastor."
Not only that but they are perpetuating an ultimately warped gospel & false church model.

Right? Pray & ask the Lord to speak to you about these salient issues.
They DO matter to him.......See what He says
Stefos........God bless you AS you put God first Amen

Click to expand...

Although I just came upon your post, I have to say that you are spot-on in identifying problems in the modern American Church. [I assist in Haiti and there are different issues in the Church there.] I am so burdened about what is happening at my church but do not feel I am able to address it (privately) because of the issues you addressed.

If it is of any interest, you should understand that the house churches in China are rapidly adopting the American model of doing church. I have made three trips, with my most recent being this April. Here are the disturbing things I observed:

1. Dramatically declining personal evangelism. Christians in China are told to bring non-Christians to church in order to hear the gospel. The result is that very few non-Christians are bold enough to attend an illegal house church meeting.
2. Dramatically declining personal discipleship. What little discipleship is taking place comes in the form of listening to sermons on Sunday morning.
3. An emphasis on worship teams and American-style charismatic/pentecostal "worship". The result is extremely fluffy doctrine and a strong emphasis on emotion and feelings.
4. Seminaries. Granted that there is a dire need in China for sound Bible teaching. Today there is enough freedom in China that the house churches have established networks of Bible schools and seminaries. My translator from my first visit is now in seminary and is enjoying studying Greek and Hebrew with absolutely no idea as to what he will do with his education. He does not want to preach or to pastor a church.
5. Increasing immorality among the children of Christians. Many of these are quite lost in their sin and are frequently sent to Bible school to get straightened out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I had a girl in one class who came to school after her parents discovered that she was pregnant. One week into my teaching her father showed up late at night and took her back home in order to have an abortion (these are "Christian" parents who decided that their daughter "needed" to abort her child!!!). In the same school I had a girl who was the younger of two daughters. In China parents need a son, because a son is required to care for them in their old age. A daughter is required to care for her husband and his parents. Without a son there is no one to care for people in their old age and the government would just as rather see them dead if nobody else will care for them. It is a dire situation. In this case, the younger daughter was raised as a boy by her mother. When I first met her I actually thought she was a boy or, at least, a eunuch. The result at school was that she seduced another girl and they were expelled for their lesbian relationship.
6. Increasing emphasis on tithing. In another class two of my best students ended up having a lively discussion regarding tithing. One attended a house church where it was commanded and the other attended another house church. The second student absolutely stunned the first when she told her that EVERYTHING she has belongs to God, not just 10%.
7. Minimalism. Christians in China are being assured that as long as they attend church on Sunday morning and give their tithe, all is well between them and God.

The biggest problem IMO is so little of the church is focused on A) preaching the gospel and B) preaching about the need to REPENT

BukiRob said:

The biggest problem IMO is so little of the church is focused on A) preaching the gospel and B) preaching about the need to REPENT

Click to expand...

Preaching at people pales in comparison with personal evangelism, especially friendship evangelism. We are commanded not merely to proclaim the gospel but to make disciples. The process can be compared with parenting. If we merely sire children and then walk away after they are born we are culpable of being terrible parents. In the same way if we lead someone to Christ and then add another tick on our list and walk away from them, expecting them to repent and live a Christian life, we are deceived and are guilty of failing our duty to disciple them. Discipleship, unlike salvation, is not a one-time event. Like childrearing it requires concerted time and effort with no guarantee of success.

bbbbbbb said:

Preaching at people pales in comparison with personal evangelism, especially friendship evangelism. We are commanded not merely to proclaim the gospel but to make disciples. The process can be compared with parenting. If we merely sire children and then walk away after they are born we are culpable of being terrible parents. In the same way if we lead someone to Christ and then add another tick on our list and walk away from them, expecting them to repent and live a Christian life, we are deceived and are guilty of failing our duty to disciple them. Discipleship, unlike salvation, is not a one-time event. Like childrearing it requires concerted time and effort with no guarantee of success.

Click to expand...

I agree... but the step prior to discipleship is for them to hear the Gospel and the need to repent.

BukiRob said:

I agree... but the step prior to discipleship is for them to hear the Gospel and the need to repent.

Click to expand...

Absolutely! That is why I emphasize personal evangelism. Simply preaching at a person rarely leads to true faith and repentance. People need to understand the gospel in order to believe the gospel.

Good thoughts, bbbbbbbbb!

Stefos said:

Why is the modern nation of Israel always being called "God's chosen people?"

In actuality, Christians are "God's Chosen people."

Click to expand...

God Almighty made a Covenant with Abraham and swore that He would take care of His descendants. God is NOT a liar.

Go read the book of Hebrews and learn that as Christians we are grafted in as the Gospel is for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

God is not done with the Jews... He will rule from Jerusalem, not from America!