Israeli Minister: Reform Jews aren't Jews

Open Heart

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JeffTheLearner

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Ethnicity vs' Religion, and culture. Does ethnicity define a Jew as Jewish, or does faith and culture define who is Jewish?

According to those of the Faith ...if you know what they believe ...you cant blame them for seeing the secularist as willing exiles.

But also it is a case of limited words. If you are a practitioner of Judaism you are told that makes you a Jew ...but also if you are ethnically Jewish you are also a Jew. So what way is there to define a secularist who is ethnically Jewish and has estranged themselves from both the faith and culture of Judaism?

There really is no way ....other than to difine one group as secularist, and the other as practitioners of Judaism.

My personal bias on the issue agrees with the Orthadox Minister, and excludes, and exiles all ethnicities of nations including ethnic Judians who dont keep Torah out of the Holy land. Why contine to defile the land of Yah before His Face when there are plenty of other places to live where you can live so foolishly?

Thats my stance. But looking at the founders of modern Israel, you have two dreams at its founding. One group desiring to reestablish a God fearing state under Judaism, and another group desiring to just simply have a Jewish state. One group has no standard but ethnicity, and are awarded a false sence of piety for being content, while those with standards watch their dreams being crushed daily as they are perpetually slandered for the standards they uphold.

The reality is, there are two states within modern Israel waring against each other ...just like in America one group wants to live morally, self governing with less government, while the other wants to live immorally with huge government control to subdue those who have become irrational, and insane through such lawless allowance. Its only the facade of centralized government that gives the illusion of national unity.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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...though I do agree that the "orthodox" minister is acting too irrational when attempting to endorse his sect of Judaism as the "state church" of Israel.

He should be content only with those who vow to keep Torah.
 
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Open Heart

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Jews are a people. It's a tribal thing. The easiest way to be part of the family is to be born into it. However you can also be adopted into it via conversion to Judaism. This is why it is said a Jew is anyone born to a Jewish mother or a convert. The minister's comments fly in the face of the conventional understanding of what it means to be a Jew, including Orthodox standards. He should know better. But his hatred of the Reform is clouding his thinking.
 
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Ken Rank

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Israel’s strictly Orthodox minister of religious services said Tuesday that he did not consider Reform Jews to be Jewish....“The moment a Reform Jew stops following the religion of Israel, let’s say there’s a problem,” the minister, David Azoulay of the Shas party, said on Army Radio, adding, “I cannot allow myself to call such a person a Jew.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/w...s-reform-jews-are-not-really-jewish.html?_r=0

I do have some interaction with Jews of various sects. And I know that if I were to go to an Orthodox synagogue seeking to convert, I would specifically be asked to renounce Yeshua as Messiah. That may or may not happen at a Conservative synagogue, it will NOT HAPPEN at a Reformed... the question won't even be raised. Does that mean they are not Jewish? Of course not... that is a silly notion. Practicing doesn't make one Jewish unless a very narrow definition of the word "Jewish" is being applied, which is the case with this Orthodox Rabbi. However, I submit he is having a religious pride moment or is suffering from the very curable, NDD! (Narrow Definition Disorder) ;)
 
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ChavaK

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He is mentioning his own personal belief, and states that he is not determining who is or is not a Jew.
I happen to agree with him to some degree. My belief is once a Jew becomes a member of another religion, they are no longer a Jew. However, I also am aware that once a Jew, always a Jew. And even a Jew who converts
out is considered to be a Jew. I accept the traditional POV regarding who is a Jew. So it sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. One is my own personal belief of what should be, the other is what is halachaly accepted...
which is all that matters.
His definition is that by following Reform Judaism, one has left the faith.
I am not sure I would go quite that far.
 
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Open Heart

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He is mentioning his own personal belief, and states that he is not determining who is or is not a Jew.
I happen to agree with him to some degree. My belief is once a Jew becomes a member of another religion, they are no longer a Jew. However, I also am aware that once a Jew, always a Jew. And even a Jew who converts
out is considered to be a Jew. I accept the traditional POV regarding who is a Jew. So it sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. One is my own personal belief of what should be, the other is what is halachaly accepted...
which is all that matters.
His definition is that by following Reform Judaism, one has left the faith.
I am not sure I would go quite that far.
interesting
 
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Dave-W

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He should be content only with those who vow to keep Torah.
Most of the Haredi (ultra orthodox) do not consider Reform, Reconstructionist, or even Conservative Jews to "keep Torah."
 
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Open Heart

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Most of the Haredi (ultra orthodox) do not consider Reform, Reconstructionist, or even Conservative Jews to "keep Torah."
Right. They do not consider Reform or Masorti Judaism to be Judaism. But they still accept Reform and Masorti jews as Jews.
 
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Elihoenai

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Ethnicity vs' Religion, and culture. Does ethnicity define a Jew as Jewish, or does faith and culture define who is Jewish?

According to those of the Faith ...if you know what they believe ...you cant blame them for seeing the secularist as willing exiles.

But also it is a case of limited words. If you are a practitioner of Judaism you are told that makes you a Jew ...but also if you are ethnically Jewish you are also a Jew. So what way is there to define a secularist who is ethnically Jewish and has estranged themselves from both the faith and culture of Judaism?

There really is no way ....other than to difine one group as secularist, and the other as practitioners of Judaism.

My personal bias on the issue agrees with the Orthadox Minister, and excludes, and exiles all ethnicities of nations including ethnic Judians who dont keep Torah out of the Holy land. Why contine to defile the land of Yah before His Face when there are plenty of other places to live where you can live so foolishly?

Thats my stance. But looking at the founders of modern Israel, you have two dreams at its founding. One group desiring to reestablish a God fearing state under Judaism, and another group desiring to just simply have a Jewish state. One group has no standard but ethnicity, and are awarded a false sence of piety for being content, while those with standards watch their dreams being crushed daily as they are perpetually slandered for the standards they uphold.

The reality is, there are two states within modern Israel waring against each other ...just like in America one group wants to live morally, self governing with less government, while the other wants to live immorally with huge government control to subdue those who have become irrational, and insane through such lawless allowance. Its only the facade of centralized government that gives the illusion of national unity.


Jehovah/Yahweh cultivates his people with his religion.

It could be that the Ethnic only Jew, Judaism practicing Jew and Secularist are under the same condemnation of being in the Flesh and, therefore, no salvation to be found among them.

It is not possible for the Carnal Man to keep the commandments of Jehovah/Yahweh.

Intimidating protest highlight Israeli religious divide

The end of the school day at the Orot Girl's Elementary ought to be an oasis of peace in the family day - a chance for mothers and daughters to chat over teachers and lessons and who-said-what-to-whom....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239538


Amos 9:14-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 And I have turned back [to] the captivity of My people Israel, And they have built desolate cities, and inhabited, And have planted vineyards, and drunk their wine, And made gardens, and eaten their fruit.

15 And I have planted them on their own ground, And they are not plucked up any more from off their own ground, That I have given to them, said Jehovah thy God!



Romans 8:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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ContraMundum

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Israel’s strictly Orthodox minister of religious services said Tuesday that he did not consider Reform Jews to be Jewish....“The moment a Reform Jew stops following the religion of Israel, let’s say there’s a problem,” the minister, David Azoulay of the Shas party, said on Army Radio, adding, “I cannot allow myself to call such a person a Jew.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/w...s-reform-jews-are-not-really-jewish.html?_r=0

This opinion has been around for a long time. I know Israelis who find this kind of statement abhorrent and consider it bigoted, backward and not in the spirit of the State of Israel. Those same folks see the "Orthodox" as self-appointed rulers over all religious and political opinion who are trying to tighten their grip on the State. Personally, I think Shas are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
 
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visionary

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This opinion has been around for a long time. I know Israelis who find this kind of statement abhorrent and consider it bigoted, backward and not in the spirit of the State of Israel. Those same folks see the "Orthodox" as self-appointed rulers over all religious and political opinion who are trying to tighten their grip on the State. Personally, I think Shas are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I can see both the pros and cons of the "orthodox" positions in all matters. They have a standard, a strong stand, in a world losing both.
 
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ContraMundum

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I can see both the pros and cons of the "orthodox" positions in all matters. They have a standard, a strong stand, in a world losing both.

I know what you mean, but they are not enlightened. These are very fleshy religious leaders we are talking about.
 
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visionary

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I know what you mean, but they are not enlightened. These are very fleshy religious leaders we are talking about.
"blindness in part" is not completely blind. "until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled" means the blinders will come off here in the end times.
 
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ContraMundum

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"blindness in part" is not completely blind. "until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled" means the blinders will come off here in the end times.

Yeah, but I think Paul is referring to the more spiritual Jews here, not the whackos and bigots from Shas.
 
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Open Heart

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Sounds like you have run into some pretty hard headed individuals from Shas.
Never in person, thank goodness. But I've read enough of their antics in the news to be embarrassed by their Jewish extremism.
 
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