Can The State Of Israel Be Destroyed!

Straightshot said:

Israel cannot be destroyed because the Lord will not allow it

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Beyond the dispute that the "synagogue of satan" that now occupies the Holy Land is not Israel...
in the Bible, God divorced then totally destroyed the Northern Kingdom of Israel... and severely
punished the Southern Kingdom of Israel by destroying Jerusalem, the temple, and sending Judah
into Babylonian captivity. Israelites are the least people who should be disobedient, unfaithful and
uppity. As the Bible says... God has chosen Israel above all the people of the earth, therefore God
will punish Israel for all its sins - Amos 3:2 - to whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:47-48


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Well that is what you think

The Lord and His prophets trump you hands down on every turn

"Can God's blessing come to those who say... "I hate Jesus."?"


Answer the question above for yourself .... get it?


Zechariah the prophet is just one of Lord's that is the preterist/Post tribulation thinker's worst nightmare

And your video dude looks very scary .... do you think you should trust him?

Or maybe Zechariah would be a better pick?

Straightshot said:

Well that is what you think

The Lord and His prophets trump you hands down on every turn

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lol

Surely, you jest

That's what I think because everything I referenced in my post is in the Bible.


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Israel cannot be defeated because the US has her back. The US, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, is the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus, and is now dropping 100-pound "hailstones" on the latest face of the 7th head of Satan in the Battle of Ar Mageddon which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry.

Surely I must

You have picked out your selected scriptures and have relegated the balance of the full story to the wind

interpreter said:

Israel cannot be defeated because the US has her back.

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First of all... I wouldn't feel so secure with Obama at my back.

Second... it should be obvious, God no longer has the USA's back.


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Straightshot said:

As a preterist you should know the answer

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Indeed I do.

He has fought many in the day of battle [a Day of the Lord] in the past...

Have you ever heard of the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Persians of the ancient past?

All fell at His hand .... not only that, but He instigated .... actually set them up for the fall

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According to the prophets, not only did they feel his hand they SAW Him battle with their own EYES, they saw Him Riding the Clouds, they SAW Him Drawing his sword, they SAW Him shooting His Arrows, they SAW Him KILLING his enemies with His OWN HANDS:

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

As a self professed Literalist Straight, please show us the ACCURATE historical record where and when every eye of every person of every nation SAW God Riding on a cloud. Show us the record of God's actual LITERAL arm beign seen by every human of every nation as stated by the prophet above? Also show us the historical account of ALL people seeing God drawing His sword out of it's sheath as the prophet LITERALLY describes above.

Can you Apply the standard you hold me to, to yourself?
My bet is no.

Do you have access to a Bible and an accurate record of ancient history?

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Indeed I do have access to both, as I'm sure you do as well.. so again, from the accurate record of Ancient History, please show us the Historical record of the battles I quoted above, as well as these battles:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31.

If so, there you will find the evidence of the Lord's previous "days of battle" in which of the same He never looses .... never

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I have found and quoted many of these previous battles and yes, He never loses them.

You are only playing with half a deck Straight, but I gotta hand it to you, you are using every single card you've got!

The half you ignore, however, is this: You FREELY Spiritualize this language of Cloud Comings, stars falling, mountains melting, God Shooting Arrows, God wielding His sword, etc... in the OT, yet, without scriptural insrtruction to do so, you Hyper literalize THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE in the NT...

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in judgement, in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, at the DofJ, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

I don't buy your story P .... any of it

Carry on

You mean you can't answer my questions. You can't hold your view up to the standard you require of others.

You refuse to answer when called to account.

Got it.

Can you Apply the standard you hold me to, to yourself?
My bet is no.

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Looks Like I won that bet. Why am I not surprised?

:You refuse to answer when called to account.

Got it."


Wrong, I just have your MO pinned to the wall ... you do not get it, and you do not deserve an answer

And when you have to answer, you always recant to your same old defensive posture

.... over, and over, and over

This behavior gets boring and has no substance

So I am not going to entertain you .... you really should find something else to spend your time with

By By

That works for me. You have been very helpful in illustrating the inferiority of your view to our readers.

If your view were cohesive and scripturally superior, you could easily take the scriptures I have cited and demonstrate why they do not mean what I contend they mean.

That you can do no such thing speaks with all the volume required.

A New World said:

Please see my post #275 since it answers ebedmelech's points which are similar to yours.

God bless.

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Brother listen please,

I have read this verse many times and tried to look at how you view it and it still needs to force a contradiction to contextualise it in the way you have.

Please read it without imposing 70AD in your resultant eschatology. Please just do this once.

Read it now...................

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

Did the apostles see those not in Christ as another group?

Yes.

If there was those group under the Law, were the Apostles and Gentiles in Christ?

Yes.

Can an apostle be under the law and in Christ at the same time?

No. (James writes a letter to the Gentiles in Acts 21:25 that we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing.)

Yes. (Contradiction because the apostles are doing one thing and instructing other believers in Christ who are not Jews to do another thing.)

If the apostles wanted to say that the law continues they would have said to US who are under the law and not to those who are under the law. It certainly implies that the Jewish apostles saw themselves in Christ as us and those not in Christ as them. It was the old cliche THEM AND US. Therefore them were those who still in their religious ways and practices were continuing under the law.

Does this mean that the law was still applicable to the apostles?

Far from it, they had instructed the church that no such observation are to be followed.

Further more 1 Corinthians 9:20 is related to the acts of the apostles who needed to be seen to observe the law all the while they were wanting to reach the minds and hearts of the Jews who gathered at the temple, so that they can tell them, hey the mosaic law is a done deal, we are now under the blood covenant of the Son.

Is there any evidence that the apostles wanted to slip in like a Trojan horse and to deliver the package who is Christ into the hearts and minds of the Torah observers?

Absolutely, here it is..............

Acts 5:38-42
38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
40His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

It is evidence from the acts of the apostles that the apostles disguised themselves in Jewish apparel and pretended to be law observers as those under the law, to enter in the Temple and to preach Jesus to those who were still observing the law. This covert mission led them to be trialed before the Sanhedrin priests and flogged for preaching Jesus.

This was a covert infiltration to come to the crowded places of Torah observers to try and lodge them from their law practices and to come over to Jesus Christ camp. That is why they were seen and accused of..........

Acts 21:28
shouting, "Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place."

Oops Paul was caught red handed.

Berean777 said:

Brother listen please,

I have read this verse many times and tried to look at how you view it and it still needs to force a contradiction to contextualise it in the way you have.

Please read it without imposing 70AD in your resultant eschatology. Please just do this once.

Read it now...................

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

Did the apostles see those not in Christ as another group?

Yes.

If there was those group under the Law, were the Apostles and Gentiles in Christ?

Yes.

Can an apostle be under the law and in Christ at the same time?

No. (James writes a letter to the Gentiles in Acts 21:25 that we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing.)

Yes. (Contradiction because the apostles are doing one thing and instructing other believers in Christ who are not Jews to do another thing.)

If the apostles wanted to say that the law continues they would have said to US who are under the law and not to those who are under the law. It certainly implies that the Jewish apostles saw themselves in Christ as us and those not in Christ as them. It was the old cliche THEM AND US. Therefore them were those who still in their religious ways and practices were continuing under the law.

Does this mean that the law was still applicable to the apostles?

Far from it, they had instructed the church that no such observation are to be followed.

Further more 1 Corinthians 9:20 is related to the acts of the apostles who needed to be seen to observe the law all the while they were wanting to reach the minds and hearts of the Jews who gathered at the temple, so that they can tell them, hey the mosaic law is a done deal, we are now under the blood covenant of the Son.

Is there any evidence that the apostles wanted to slip in like a Trojan horse and to deliver the package who is Christ into the hearts and minds of the Torah observers?

Absolutely, here it is..............

Acts 5:38-42
38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
40His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

It is evidence from the acts of the apostles that the apostles disguised themselves in Jewish apparel and pretended to be law observers as those under the law, to enter in the Temple and to preach Jesus to those who were still observing the law. This covert mission led them to be trialed before the Sanhedrin priests and flogged for preaching Jesus.

This was a covert infiltration to come to the crowded places of Torah observers to try and lodge them from their law practices and to come over to Jesus Christ camp. That is why they were seen and accused of..........

Acts 21:28
shouting, "Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place."

Oops Paul was caught red handed.

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You have apparently completely misunderstood my position. I do not believe any of those who were coming to Christ and the promise of a New Covenant by faith in the first century were under the Law. All who were in Christ were free from the Law.

However, you (and others here) seem to be under the impression that the Old Covenant passed away at the cross. I'm saying it continued until it was judged and cast out in Ad 70. The Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah continued under the Old Covenant throughout the last days of Old Covenant Israel.

So with that in mind please read it again:

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law

There were Jews in Paul's day who remained under the Old Covenant Law. Since that is evident from this verse alone (and also throughout the NT) the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross!

Do you see it now?

God bless

A New World said:

I think you're missing Paul's point. Read it again:

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW! The Jews were under the Law of Moses when Paul wrote. How can Scripture be any clearer?

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You're trying to make it say what it doesn't mean New World. WHen Paul says "under the law" he has made it perfectly clear previously that those under the Law have "missed the boat". Try Romans 2:17-29, Romans 3:19, 20...and finally let's add ALL of the verse you quote and what you excluded:
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Make a bit of difference in context! Now how plain can it be?

A New World said:

If the Old Covenant had passed away at the cross it would have been impossible for anyone to be under the Mosaic Law. This verse alone refutes your opinion.

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No it doesn't. The burden is in you to show one person saved under the law...and you can't do it because scripture doesn't contain ONE person saved under law.

A New World said:

Yes, it's true no one was ever saved by the Law, salvation would come through faith in the promised Messiah. When does Scripture say salvation would be realized?

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Let's star real early with Genesis 6:8
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

There you have it! GRACE...UNMERITED FAVOR of God...and that was before Abraham!

A New World said:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

They were hoping in faith for the salvation to be revealed at the coming of the Lord. And, according to Scripture, when would His coming take place?

James told his audiences: James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

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Please take note that you've again missed context! If Christ is appearing apart from sin...He's coming for us who are saved...and the only thing we have is Christ righteousness transferred to us. That's the point!

A New World said:

Accoring to Scripture the Jews were under the Old Covenant until it was judged, cast out, and their kingdom given to another. All of those coming to Christ by faith were eagerly awaiting the vindication of the gospel at His coming and the end of the Mosaic age.

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No they put themselves UNDER IT. Please note what Paul (a former devout Pharisee), said the purpose of the Law was...Galatians 3:10, 11:
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

????

A New World said:

You have apparently completely misunderstood my position. I do not believe any of those who were coming to Christ and the promise of a New Covenant by faith in the first century were under the Law. All who were in Christ were free from the Law.

However, you (and others here) seem to be under the impression that the Old Covenant passed away at the cross. I'm saying it continued until it was judged and cast out in Ad 70. The Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah continued under the Old Covenant throughout the last days of Old Covenant Israel.

So with that in mind please read it again:

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law

There were Jews in Paul's day who remained under the Old Covenant Law. Since that is evident from this verse alone (and also throughout the NT) the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross!

Do you see it now?

God bless

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I understand what you are saying.

However, they still had missed the boat friend that is why the apostles made extreme efforts to covertly dress and act like they were Torah observers in order to infiltrate the temple worshiper, so to preach Jesus to them.

I agree with embedmelech that the apostles went to extreme lengths to deliver the message:

HEY SLEEPY HEADS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE BOAT.

The messiah came and accomplished single handedly the ushering in of his blood covenant that he saw personally to confirm with many; Jews, Greeks and Gentiles.

You are applying a fallacy and this is how you apply it to make a verse say what it doesn't intend to say:

The apostles IDENTIFIED that there were THOSE who were under the LAW. (Faulty premise 1)

and

Because there were THOSE who still observed the LAW. (Faulty premise 2)

Therefore............

The Old Covenant had not passed. (Faulty conclusion)

The fallacy uses two faulty premises to arrive at a faulty conclusion.

You are trying to sell this and this is not going to pass as credible reason based on one verse alone that you have taken completely out of context.

The double standard fallacy follows in toe.

1. Special Pleading (double standard)--Applying a standard to another that is different from a standard applied to oneself.
   1. Example: You can't possibly understand menopause because you are a man.
   2. Example: Those rules don't apply to me since I am older than you.

The first century church in Christ under the new covenant did not apply to the Jews because they were under the old covenant Mosaic LAW.

If the blood covenant didn't apply to the Jews because they were still under the LAW, then the apostles needed not to preach to them until after their destruction in 70AD.

As you stated previously; God had stayed faithful to his Old Covenant observers of the Torah and allowed them lea way to continue with those abominable practices, therefore the new covenant was not applicable to them for that duration of transition from old to new, that saw the end of the old in 70AD as you claim.

Tell me friend was the New Covenant applicable to the Torah observers, even though they chose to observe the MOSAIC LAW? Yes/No.

ebedmelech said:

You're trying to make it say what it doesn't mean New World. WHen Paul says "under the law" he has made it perfectly clear previously that those under the Law have "missed the boat". Try Romans 2:17-29, Romans 3:19, 20...and finally let's add ALL of the verse you quote and what you excluded:
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Make a bit of difference in context! Now how plain can it be?

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You continue to ignore the fact that there were Jews UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES at the time Paul wrote. I realize that Paul and all of those coming to Christ by faith were free from the curse of the Law. But, there were those remaining under the Law of Moses who faced imminent judgment that was promised for those under the Law. Since they remained under the Law of Moses they remained under the Old Covenant. Though you may not accept it or maybe you're avoiding the clear logic of it for some reason, this means the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross!

Read Leviticus 26 again. Moses warned Israel of the curses they faced for disobedience to the Law.

Leviticus 26:14 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,

15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,

Leviticus 26:21 'Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.

The book of Revelation is about the ultimate fulfillment of the judgment of God on the final generation of Old Covenant Israel.

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

The burden is in you to show one person saved under the law...and you can't do it because scripture doesn't contain ONE person saved under law.

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I agree. I have no idea where you got the idea that I think anyone was saved under the Law. Only those who believed God were counted righteous in His sight.

Let's star real early with Genesis 6:8
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

There you have it! GRACE...UNMERITED FAVOR of God...and that was before Abraham!

Click to expand...

I completely agree! What's your point?

No they put themselves UNDER IT. Please note what Paul (a former devout Pharisee), said the purpose of the Law was...Galatians 3:10, 11:
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

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They did not put themselves under the Law. The Jews were born under the Law. The nation of Israel was under the Mosaic Law from the time it was given at Mt. Sinai until it was judged in AD 70 for sins committed under the Law. At no point during that span of time was anyone justified by the Law.

Berean777 said:

I understand what you are saying. They had missed the boat friend that is why the apostles made extreme efforts to covertly dress and act like they were Torah observers in order to infiltrate the temple worshiper, so to preach Jesus to them.

I agree with embedmelech that the apostles went to extreme lengths to deliver the message:

HEY SLEEPY HEADS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE BOAT.

The messiah came and accomplished single handedly the ushering in of his blood covenant that he saw personally to confirm with many; Jews, Greeks and Gentiles.

You are applying a fallacy and this is how you apply it to make a verse say what it doesn't intend to say:

The apostles IDENTIFIED that there were THOSE who were under the LAW. (Faulty premise 1)

Click to expand...

This is not a faulty premise, it's what Paul stated more than once.

Here are two examples:

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

I don't know how you're missing it but you are. I'm not saying it, I'm simply pointing out that Paul stated in the present tense that there were Jews who were, at that time, under the Law of Moses. This means they were under the Old Covenant.

Galatians 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--

25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--

Paul again spoke in the present tense concerning the Old Covenant. The COVENANT from Mt. Sinai corresponds to the Jerusalem which NOW IS, and IS IN BONDAGE...

The first century Jews remaining under the Old Covenant also remained in bondage under that covenant.

Paul was not just saying "HEY SLEEPY HEADS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE BOAT." Now that's a faulty premise that in no way reflects the clear teaching of Scripture.

and

Because there were THOSE who still observed the LAW. (Faulty premise 2)

Therefore............

The Old Covenant had not passed. (Faulty conclusion)

The fallacy uses two faulty premises to arrive at a faulty conclusion.

You are trying to sell this and this is not going to pass as credible reason based on one verse alone that you have taken completely out of context.

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One verse? You are ignoring the many passages I've pointed to in order to show the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross.

The first century church in Christ under the blood covenant did not apply to the Jews because they were under the Mosaic LAW.

If the blood covenant didn't apply to the Jews because they were still under the LAW, then the apostles needed not to preach to them until after their destruction in 70AD.

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This is a strawman argument. I of course realize that many Jews were coming to Christ by faith. There was a remnant of Jews according to the election of grace coming to faith in Christ in the last days. Yet, there were also Jews remaining under the Old Covenant.

As you stated previously that God stayed faithful to his Old Covenant observers of the Torah and allowed them lea way to continue with those abominable practices, therefore the new covenant was not applicable to them for that duration of transition from old to new.

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Though I don't know your motive, you continue to misrepresent my position. The New Covenant was offered to both Jew and Gentile during the last days of Old Covenant Israel. Though only a remnant came out of Old Covenant Israel most of the Jews chose to remain under the Old Covenant and were judged accordingly at the end of the age.

Tell me friend was the blood covenant applicable to the Torah observers, even though they chose to observe the MOSAIC LAW?

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If you're asking if the Jews coming to Christ were justified by faith, the answer of course is yes. If you're asking if the sacrifices made for those who remained under the Law were accepted, only God knows. Scripture is clear that the Mosaic Law remained until the end of the Old Covenant age.

God bless

Again you haven't really answered my question:

Was the New Covenant applicable to those who observed the LAW, regardless whether they remained under the old covenant as you stated in your previous post? Yes/No

A New World said:

You have apparently completely misunderstood my position. I do not believe any of those who were coming to Christ and the promise of a New Covenant by faith in the first century were under the Law. All who were in Christ were free from the Law.

However, you (and others here) seem to be under the impression that the Old Covenant passed away at the cross. I'm saying it continued until it was judged and cast out in Ad 70. The Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah continued under the Old Covenant throughout the last days of Old Covenant Israel.

So with that in mind please read it again:

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law

There were Jews in Paul's day who remained under the Old Covenant Law. Since that is evident from this verse alone (and also throughout the NT) the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross!

Do you see it now?

God bless

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There are Messianic Christians today, who make the choice to avoid pork.
They are not under the Law, however they choose to follow the ancient dietary laws.

The Apostle Paul was doing the same thing, in order to bring some of his fellow Jews to salvation in Christ.

The summary of the 70 weeks is found in Daniel 9:24.



Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
All of this was finished within 3 1/2 years of the day Jesus was crucified.



Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Christ was cut off 3 1/2 years into the 70th week. His disciples continued to preach the Gospel to the Jews for another 3 1/2 years through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Stephen was stoned at the end of the 70th week, when he reviewed the history of the Jews and shared the Gospel.
After the 70 weeks the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jesus confirmed the New Covenant in His own Blood.
The veil was torn after His sacrifice on the Cross, showing that the animal sacrifices were done.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. He did not say... "It is almost finished.", or "It will be finished in 70 AD."




If there were two covenants in effect, Paul would not have been constantly battling with the Judaisers, because salvation could have come through either system.

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