Universal reconciliation

James Is Back said:

Are you kidding me? So Islamics(especially the extremists),atheists,etc have Christ in them? I don't think so.

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As a Mod, you should no better than to twist someones word. I did'nt say that Christ was in all, I said, all are In Christ.
The Corinth church were christians, but Paul said Christ had not yet been Formed in them, and they were still Carnal.

As many are still today in the church, Christ was lifted up, therefore He DID drag all men unto Himself as it is written, we just don't yet see all submitting unto Him as of yet, but as I stated,....We will....For He did.

Wgw said:

In the case of fundamentalist or heretical pastors, my view is that their call is almost certainly a demonic promptimg.

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But your position is simply the bar ditch opposite IMO and I don't think demons would prompt anyone to promote Jesus. Which would necessarily come with that job. But you do have me 'thinking' on that position. I personally do think that fundamentalist pastors 'can be' and oftentimes 'are' called by the voice of God though. But certainly not all. Some have simply done what their 'soul' wants and not what their 'spirit' is leading them to do. And as far as the heretical pastors are concerned I think scripture sticks up for them too.

1CO 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Martin Luther is probably the most famous heretic of modern centuries. But no one would think of calling him that...anymore. Not even 'the church' which tried to kill him. What was your denomination's stance on ole Martin 'back then'?

Our Lord actually lauded aspects of their zeal for the Law, while condeming them for their hypocrisy and for the guru-disciple like relationships that formed between a rabbi and pupils,

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And today we have the same relationship with those who seem to bow down at the feet of their 'priests' in orthodoxy', as well as many 'pastors' in denominationalism. But that doesn't happen in all churches, but just those who elevate their leaders too high. Some denominations/churches do just the opposite. They believe in congregational rule and strip too much authority away from their leadership. If I'm in error concerning your denomination tell me why you think so.

No offense intended with my views. I think the purpose of every pastor/priest ultimately is to grow the people out of a dependency upon 'them' so that the people grow in their Sspiritual relationship with God. As it is I just see a lot of 'religious' activity.

2KnowHim said:

As a Mod, you should no better than to twist someones word. I did'nt say that Christ was in all, I said, all are In Christ.
The Corinth church were christians, but Paul said Christ had not yet been Formed in them, and they were still Carnal.

As many are still today in the church, Christ was lifted up, therefore He DID drag all men unto Himself as it is written, we just don't yet see all submitting unto Him as of yet, but as I stated,....We will....For He did.

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If you are saying that Christ died for all that is one thing but not all will accept Salvation. Just because He died for the whole world(speaking as a Libertarian Free Will advocate and not a Calvinist as they teach a different doctrine on Christ's atonement)doesn't mean all will come to Him and be saved.

UR teaches that Christ reconciles all but that's not Biblical. As I stated a while back it seems fruitless for God to come to the world as flesh and blood and die a horrible death if the eternal plan was to forgive everyone no matter who.

James Is Back said:

it seems fruitless for God to come to the world as flesh and blood and die a horrible death if the eternal plan was to forgive everyone no matter who.

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I have to admit that I never quite understood that line of thinking.

It's seems akin to saying that if a fireman succeeds in rescuing
everyone from a burning building then he wasted his time.
How does success = time wasted?

On the contrary, I would think that Christ's suffering should
be rewarded by getting 100% of what he suffered for.



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chaela said:

I have to admit that I never quite understood that line of thinking.

It's seems akin to saying that if a fireman succeeds in rescuing
everyone from a burning building then he wasted his time.
How does success = time wasted?

On the contrary, I would think that Christ's suffering should
be rewarded by getting 100% of what he suffered for.



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But if a fireman knew ahead of time that he was going to rescue everyone a few days before that building caught on fire then why bother waiting until the building burns? Why not tell everyone not to go into that building on the day the building is going to burn and save the trouble of putting his life on the line? He could have saved everyone by telling them not to go into that building anyway right?

Hillsage said:

But your position is simply the bar ditch opposite IMO and I don't think demons would prompt anyone to promote Jesus. Which would necessarily come with that job. But you do have me 'thinking' on that position. I personally do think that fundamentalist pastors 'can be' and oftentimes 'are' called by the voice of God though. But certainly not all. Some have simply done what their 'soul' wants and not what their 'spirit' is leading them to do. And as far as the heretical pastors are concerned I think scripture sticks up for them too.

1CO 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Martin Luther is probably the most famous heretic of modern centuries. But no one would think of calling him that...anymore. Not even 'the church' which tried to kill him. What was your denomination's stance on ole Martin 'back then'?


And today we have the same relationship with those who seem to bow down at the feet of their 'priests' in orthodoxy', as well as many 'pastors' in denominationalism. But that doesn't happen in all churches, but just those who elevate their leaders too high. Some denominations/churches do just the opposite. They believe in congregational rule and strip too much authority away from their leadership. If I'm in error concerning your denomination tell me why you think so.

No offense intended with my views. I think the purpose of every pastor/priest ultimately is to grow the people out of a dependency upon 'them' so that the people grow in their Sspiritual relationship with God. As it is I just see a lot of 'religious' activity.

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Martin Luther never expressly declared war on the Orthodox and a group of his disciples who wrote to the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople were shocked when he disagreed with their theology and politely asked them to stop talking to him about it. By that time Luther had passed away. I dont believe any of the four Oriental Orthodox churches became aware of Luther in his lifetime.

Calvin did expressly declare war on the Eastern Orthodox by calling the "Greek church" the worst of idolaters. A hundred years later after a forged confession of Calvinist faith was published in Greek in Geneva a synod of Eastern Orthodox bishops assembled to consecrate the newly rebuilt Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. This meeting became known as the Synod of Dositheus or the Synod of Jerusalem and thrice anathematized Calvin in his person, while calling Luther a madman but not anathematizing him directly (however some of his theology was declared anathema).

The Oriental Orthodox Church did not participate in this Synod even though we were there, as the Armenians designed and built the distinctive, exquisite two story altar over the Grotto of the Nativity. Thus officially I believe we regard Luther as having been in grave error.

James Is Back said:

But if a fireman knew ahead of time that he was going to rescue everyone a few days before that building caught on fire then why bother waiting until the building burns? Why not tell everyone not to go into that building on the day the building is going to burn and save the trouble of putting his life on the line? He could have saved everyone by telling them not to go into that building anyway right?

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True, but evidently (if the Genesis story is
literal), they went into the proverbial burning
building anyway, even though He said "Don't do it."

But you're right in that He knew in advance, which is why
He entered the burning building "from before the foundation
of the world". He had it covered the whole time, because He
knew precisely how it was all going to happen, imo.


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chaela said:

True, but evidently (if the Genesis story is
literal), they went into the proverbial burning
building anyway, even though He said "Don't do it."

But you're right in that He knew in advance, which is why
He entered the burning building "from before the foundation
of the world". He had it covered the whole time, because He
knew precisely how it was all going to happen, imo.


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But am not clear how this reply answers the point.

God made us to love Him with all Hearts so that we could eternally share in His Happiness with Him. That means we had to have been originally made to be Good (soul and body in perfect alignment with each other and Him) and also made to live forever. This is depicted in Adam's relationship with God prior to the Fall. That was the "original" state from which mankind fell. Mankind did not need supernatural intervention prior Adam's sin in order to live forever in Glory with God.

So if God knew we would fall, but knew some of us, even with our corrupt nature, would still love Him with all our Hearts then if we are to say His Plan for everyone was to just clean us up after our death, then it kind of makes what He did for us on the Cross unnecessary. IOW those that love Him with all their hearts just need a little of what one claims the damned will get much more of - to make them see the err of their ways.

DrBubbaLove said:

God made us to love Him with all Hearts so that we could eternally share in His Happiness with Him. That means we had to have been originally made to be Good (soul and body in perfect alignment with each other and Him) and also made to live forever. This is depicted in Adam's relationship with God prior to the Fall. That was the "original" state from which mankind fell. Mankind did not need supernatural intervention prior Adam's sin in order to live forever in Glory with God.

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Whatever our original state was, it evidently left room
for what ultimately happened, and I personally don't
believe that God didn't see it coming. Some say that
Adam & Eve were made 'perfect', but either they
weren't actually perfect, or perfection (in humans)
includes messing up. They were made Perfectly
Human.

So if God knew we would fall, but knew some of us, even with our corrupt nature, would still love Him with all our Hearts then if we are to say His Plan for everyone was to just clean us up after our death, then it kind of makes what He did for us on the Cross unnecessary. IOW those that love Him with all their hearts just need a little of what one claims the damned will get much more of - to make them see the err of their ways.

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Well, there was the belief at the time that without the
shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness of sins
(Hebrews 9:22). So God, through the crucifixion, could
have been simply acting in a way they would more
easily understand. One message that definitely seems
to come through His incarnation as Jesus is that He
loves us so much He'd die for us.

The other thing to consider is that if God's plan for everyone
was to simply send some to Heaven and others to Hell,
that would also make what He did for us on the Cross
unnecessary.

And, to be honest, I've reached the point where I'm,
like, 99.95% persuaded that any hellish experiences
one faces post-mortem—whether it be for an age or
for ever—have less to do with devils and pitchforks
and more to do with that particular individual's feelings
about being in the direct, visible presence of God
Himself. I'm pretty much with the Eastern Orthodox as
far as believing that Heaven and Hell are the same
place—in the Presence of God. Those who love Him
will be thrilled and those who don't (yet) love Him will
be miserable, at least until they come around. Just
like in this world, attitude determines experience.
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chaela said:

I'm pretty much with the Eastern Orthodox as
far as believing that Heaven and Hell are the same
place—in the Presence of God. Those who love Him
will be thrilled and those who don't (yet) love Him will
be miserable, at least until they come around. Just
like in this world, attitude determines experience.
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Heaven and hell the same place???? I've not heard that before, but it makes sense since I personally believe that our God is the metaphorical lake of fire and since "our God is a consuming fire" it really only makes sense that the final purification of all eg. 'still sinning saints' and 'unsaved sinners' who don't yet know him at all will be purified together. So Chaela, do you attend a 'Roman' Catholic congregation? Do they know your views?

chaela said:

Whatever our original state was, it evidently left room
for what ultimately happened, and I personally don't
believe that God didn't see it coming. Some say that
Adam & Eve were made 'perfect', but either they
weren't actually perfect, or perfection (in humans)
includes messing up. They were made Perfectly
Human.

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I was not implying God did not see it coming. The potential to choose to act against our nature is part of what it means to have been created with a free will (also part of being made in His Image - in that His Will is certainly free). So God would not only know the future, but know of the potential for that future before He made the first man, given He gave man a free will.
In the context of my reply and like the linked articles apparently not read; by perfect I meant the soul and body are in perfect harmony together(not at war as Saint Paul depicts us now). In summary, the way we created to be and the way we can be upon Resurrection and Final Judgment (all things new). I like the one article suggesting Adam was superman, not a caveman.

Well, there was the belief at the time that without the
shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness of sins
(Hebrews 9:22). So God, through the crucifixion, could
have been simply acting in a way they would more
easily understand. One message that definitely seems
to come through His incarnation as Jesus is that He
loves us so much He'd die for us..
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The interesting thing about the shedding of blood point is that it had no effect unless the person (not dead but still living) was sincere in offering the sacrifice. So in a very real sense they had to "participate" in this life in that process, which is also the orthodox view of the replacing process for application of His Blood. I do not recall an OT teaching that such a sacrifice could be made after someone died and have that work for their sins. So the idea of a post death application of blood already shed as a sacrifice seems to go beyond those beliefs - which is why some were suggesting that the concept of the damned being redeemed in the next life by a purification process goes beyond the concept described in the OT of seeking reconciliation with God in this life by offering blood to atone for their sins.
And that is also why I asked if purification in the next life is available to everyone, why a sacrifice is needed at all, which am still not sure you have addressed.
Yes, His Act shows great Love and we do not deny that, but that was not the question.

Hell is not described in great detail in scripture, and I suppose the concept of dual/opposing affect of being in God's presence is logical. Since we are assured there is great joy in Heaven right now, we certainly know God capable of Being Eternally Happy and no doubt enables those with Him right now to be so, even in the presence of great suffering occurring on earth now. So I guess such a dual space (glorified/damned) idea of Heaven is possible. However, a Paradise with wailing and gnashing of teeth as background noise does not come to most people's minds when they think of paradise. Also little hard to picture people being thrown into a place, with wailing and gnashing of teeth, torment...etc., and think of that as another facet of Paradise rather a special location for the damned. Similar idea to the demons being cast out of Heaven.

In this thread we have good soil and we have rocky soil ..... the seeds of ET and the seeds of UR are being spread among both .... they are growing together ..... but come the time of the harvest the wheat (the works of Christ in you) and the tares (the works of Adam in you) shall be separated and the tares (the works of Adam) shall be burned up ..... and in the same way we have the wheat and the chaff .... the son (when formed in us) shall thresh the wheat and the spirit (when given) will separate the wheat from the chaff ... and then you will see the Father burn up the chaff while storing the wheat in Himself

If anyone can see that "Jordan" in scripture, spiritually speaks of ....descending, downward, casting down, subdue, a crossing over, and especially baptism which speaks of overcoming Death....ect.

Then you will also see, that beyond Jordan there is also a great mourning, another circumcision made, covenants made, passing over death, ...etc. The old test. is full of pictures as to what happens after someone dies.

Jos 1:13 Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land.
Jos 1:14 Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men of valour, and help them;
Jos 1:15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD'S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.

Jos 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.
Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.
Jos 5:3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
Jos 5:4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
Jos 5:5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

jugghead said:

In this thread we have good soil and we have rocky soil ..... the seeds of ET and the seeds of UR are being spread among both .... they are growing together ..... but come the time of the harvest the wheat (the works of Christ in you) and the tares (the works of Adam in you) shall be separated and the tares (the works of Adam) shall be burned up ..... and in the same way we have the wheat and the chaff .... the son (when formed in us) shall thresh the wheat and the spirit (when given) will separate the wheat from the chaff ... and then you will see the Father burn up the chaff while storing the wheat in Himself

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The tares are completely distinct from the wheat. A different plant altogether. The chaff is an integral part of the wheat, i.e. the inedible outer husk. Yes the tares of UR will be separated and burned. The unchanging word of God will forever say, "everlasting punishment.""depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.""cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." And Jesus spoke of a fate worse than death twice. "that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."Mat 26:24 "whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Mat 18:6.

Hillsage said:

Heaven and hell the same place???? I've not heard that before, but it makes sense since I personally believe that our God is the metaphorical lake of fire and since "our God is a consuming fire" it really only makes sense that the final purification of all eg. 'still sinning saints' and 'unsaved sinners' who don't yet know him at all will be purified together.

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Yeah, I think it makes sense as well, especially when I
consider that God is omnipresent anyway, so whatever
post-mortem pain one suffers wouldn't be from
"eternal separation" (because how can one be
separated from an omnipresent entity?) but rather
from quite the opposite (again, until that individual falls
in love with Him—I'm not sure the Eastern Orthodox
believe that such suffering is only temporary).

So Chaela, do you attend a 'Roman' Catholic congregation? Do they know your views?

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I returned to the Catholic church last year, but to be
honest I'm blissfully church-free right now. I thought
I could re-assimilate but it's like trying to cram one's
feet into shoes that one has long since outgrown.

The only Catholics who know my views have been those I've
encountered online, and a progressive Catholic long-time
friend of mine offline. I have not shared my views with
my congregation and don't intend to as it's a more
conservative parish (not that there's been much opportunity
to do so, as I'm not active there anyway).

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DrBubbaLove said:

So the idea of a post death application of blood already shed as a sacrifice seems to go beyond those beliefs - which is why some were suggesting that the concept of the damned being redeemed in the next life by a purification process goes beyond the concept described in the OT of seeking reconciliation with God in this life by offering blood to atone for their sins.

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Perhaps, although the Catholic church does teach that
there's a Purgatory, so evidently physical death doesn't
necessarily have to be the end of it for the individual.


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Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seems straightforward to me, not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Jesus said it himself.

Corduroys said:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seems straightforward to me, not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Jesus said it himself.

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And you meet what requirements 'to enter'?

chaela said:

I'm not sure the Eastern Orthodox
believe that such suffering is only temporary).

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So close, only to end up making the God of Love partake in a 'perverted love' statement in my mind. Not only do those who were never "called/drawn/chosen/predestined/for ordained/elected" by God to believe in the first place, now get to be tortured endlessly and mercilessly forever without end, while the "likeness" of the "God" they're pursuing "after" just watches them like a weenie roast.

I'm blissfully church-free right now. -

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WE ARE the church really, and you only go to congregate with like 'minded' believers. Which you and I both 'have done', and are really 'still doing' when ever we fellowship with some unbelieving believer. But, in order to do so, we sometimes must make sure they don't really know what's in our 'mind'. Especially regarding UR anyway.