Your stand on homosexuality?

Norm d'Plume said:

I'd be interested to know the source for that. I was born in Montreal and lived in Canada for thirty years. There are numerous Christian radio stations that discuss the Bible and play Christian music. When I was growing up, stores were closed for the Sabbath, although that is no longer the case, same as here.

You may be referring to the publicly owned CBC radio/TV network (similar to PBS). I wouldn't be surprised if they don't broadcast regular Sunday Christian services as a matter of policy since they would then be obligated to give time to other religions as well.

However, the CBC covers Christian funerals just as they would the funeral of anyone who warrants national coverage, including live coverage of services from inside church. They also cover religious topics in general in talk shows and other formats as it pertains to the historical and societal influence of religions. If they were doing a segment on Christianity and homosexuality, it would be appropriate to quote Scripture.

Canada is fundamentally a Christian nation, but it strives to maintain the same separation of church and state as in the U.S. It's built into their Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

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Are you sure about that?

Canadian Supreme Court Rules Biblical Speech Opposing Homosexual Behavior is a ‘Hate Crime’

“The Bible is clear that homosexuality is an abomination,” one flyer that was found to be in violation stated, citing 1 Corinthians 6:9.

http://christiannews.net/2013/02/28...opposing-homosexual-behavior-is-a-hate-crime/

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Here we have someone commenting on how things have gone in Canada on this subject.

http://www.blazingcatfur.ca/2015/06...-years-ago-heres-what-to-expect-next-america/

They predict we (like Canada has done) will soon find ourselves treated to new "heresy trials" where Christians are exemplified as pariah for holding to certain Bible teachings as if the Bible was "true" on that point.

BobRyan said:

Are you sure about that?




Here we have someone commenting on how things have gone in Canada on this subject.

http://www.blazingcatfur.ca/2015/06...-years-ago-heres-what-to-expect-next-america/

They predict we (like Canada has done) will soon find ourselves treated to new "heresy trials" where Christians are exemplified as pariah for holding to certain Bible teachings as if the Bible was "true" on that point.

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Talk about judicial overreach. Thanks for the article.

Something few if any news outlets covered - at the Senate of the U.S.


https: //www.facebook.com/Nigeriacamera/videos/965938676782270/

LoveIstheGreatest said:

As the title suggests. Tell me what is your stance on homosexuality.

I believe that:

- Homosexuality is unnatural, but not a choice. It's a problem of the soul (either caused by satan or original sin or both)

- Homosexuals should not be discriminated...

-...but same-gender marriage and adoption of children for gay couples should not be allowed.

- You can be "cured" of homosexuality if it's God's will.

- I've had a bisexual and a gay friend. They only differ by their sexuality, unlike Fundamentalists claim: "THEY ARE ALL PEDOPHILES!!! THEY RAPE OUR CHILDREN!!!!!".

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My stance on the subject is that the Bible is true as stated here --
Sunday at 9:01 AM #330

As for "the problem of the soul" -- "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" -- all have a sinful nature... but none of us have the right to circle the wagons around our sin and give it "most favored sin status".

We should not discriminate against prostitutes, or drug addicts, or alcoholics etc. Nor should we hate them nor be mean to them -- the same goes for all of what is listed above. Many of these people are nice, and are friendly, and could use some encouragement from Christian friends to accept the Gospel. That is true in all cases - even the one you have mentioned above.

(NOTE: It has been pointed out that the Bible texts listed in that link above may be forbidden on CF - so if I need to erase that post please let me know).

in Christ,
Bob

I know that homosexuality is a choice. But, given that it is a choice made over time, and usually at a very young age, it seems quite natural to older homosexuals. They don't remember, or realize all those incidents from their early childhood that resulted in their perversion. Homosexual acts are sinful. There is no sin in merely feeling attracted to the same sex. Such feelings are temptations of evil, and like other such temptations are to be resisted. It is the act itself that is the sin. So, in my view, even the most committed homosexual could make himself or herself right with God by simply practicing celibacy. It is not too much to ask. In fact, celibacy has been the rule for Catholic priests for many years. If they can do it, or at least commit to do it, so can homosexuals. Like all sinful temptations, homosexual temptation comes from the Devil, or if you wish, from the forces of evil in this world. It is the same evil that surrounds all of us daily. That evil places us in dangerous situations, blocks our path with evil working people, and causes us to have corrupt ideas about ourselves and others. Homosexuals are not a special case. Their struggle is the same as ours. We all have to fight against the forces of evil and maintain a fit spiritual condition throughout our lives. All this "gay pride" and same sex marriage stuff are just examples of evil triumphing over good in the world. It's not surprising, it has always been that way. In the words of Martin Luther, speaking of the Devil:
"His craft and power are great,
And, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal."

But that does not mean that we should give up the good fight. My Title is "Crusader" and by taking that Title I mean to fight to the death those forces of evil in this world whenever and wherever I encounter them. Whatever I can do, I will.

Meh. None of my business.

VegasGeorge said:

I know that homosexuality is a choice. But, given that it is a choice made over time, and usually at a very young age, it seems quite natural to older homosexuals. They don't remember, or realize all those incidents from their early childhood that resulted in their perversion. Homosexual acts are sinful. There is no sin in merely feeling attracted to the same sex. Such feelings are temptations of evil, and like other such temptations are to be resisted. It is the act itself that is the sin. So, in my view, even the most committed homosexual could make himself or herself right with God by simply practicing celibacy. It is not too much to ask. In fact, celibacy has been the rule for Catholic priests for many years. If they can do it, or at least commit to do it, so can homosexuals. Like all sinful temptations, homosexual temptation comes from the Devil, or if you wish, from the forces of evil in this world. It is the same evil that surrounds all of us daily. That evil places us in dangerous situations, blocks our path with evil working people, and causes us to have corrupt ideas about ourselves and others. Homosexuals are not a special case. Their struggle is the same as ours. We all have to fight against the forces of evil and maintain a fit spiritual condition throughout our lives. All this "gay pride" and same sex marriage stuff are just examples of evil triumphing over good in the world. It's not surprising, it has always been that way. In the words of Martin Luther:
"His craft and power are great,
And, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal."

But that does not mean that we should give up the good fight. My Title is "Crusader" and by taking that Title I mean to fight to the death those forces of evil in this world whenever and wherever I encounter them. Whatever I can do, I will.

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I hope that you look inside of yourself. Any good 'Crusader' knows there is enough sin inside of them self to keep them busy for quite a long time.

God's job is making wrong's right, because He only see's everything perfectly and EXACTLY how it is.

As Christians we do not condone homosexuality. We call it what it is, which is a sin.

ToBeLoved, thank you! And yes, I pray mightily every day for God to remove the beam from my eye, and to forgive my many sins. I have no desire to use this forum as a confessional, but suffice it to say there aren't many sins which I have not committed. I consider myself as merely another sinner among the rest.

After I posted above, a thought occurred to me. Even if one refuses to accept that homosexuality itself is a choice, one would have to admit that the continuation of homosexual acts with full knowledge of God's Word forbidding such acts, is a choice. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much moots the "choice" issue.

Here is an example of various views on the subject even inside the Christian church.

Yesterday at 7:22 AM #1

VegasGeorge said:

ToBeLoved, thank you! And yes, I pray mightily every day for God to remove the beam from my eye, and to forgive my many sins. I have no desire to use this forum as a confessional, but suffice it to say there aren't many sins which I have not committed. I consider myself as merely another sinner among the rest.

After I posted above, a thought occurred to me. Even if one refuses to accept that homosexuality itself is a choice, one would have to admit that the continuation of homosexual acts with full knowledge of God's Word forbidding such acts, is a choice. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much moots the "choice" issue.

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My point was that as Christians, we are all against evil. We all don't want evil around us, in our lives or the lives of anyone.

We cannot control other people though and our 'sphere of influence' is that we can talk to others about sin, but in the end, at the end of the day, we all live our lives as best we can for the Lord and try to affect what we can. We try to love and hopefully that love of Christ, mixed with knowledge of sin, set's people right. In a Christian's heart, is hopefully the Holy Spirit who is God's convicter of sin. We can pray and should pray for others, but at a certain point, we can only affect or change things to our ability and the rest is dependant upon each individual.

That is why I said to 'look within yourself'. Because we can only have so much affect outside of ourselves.

I don't know all the challenges that a homosexual faces. I don't know where their preferences stem, nor what their walk with Christ is like.

What I do know, is that God can and does work great things in His children. That we can and should pray for the oppressed, homosexual or heterosexual.

Sometimes, I see homosexuals in Christianity used as 'escape goats' in the sense that most of us can say, we are not one. Whenever, we can say or think we are better (not that you think you do, this is just one of the points that I'm trying to make 'overall' in this thread) or look at someone elses sin, we distract ourselves from our own sin and what is truely in our sphere of influence to change or have some affect on.

Homosexuality is a topic that the church and Christianity must deal with, however, we know from the Word that the church in a spiritual sense is 'each' one of us. We must not move away from that indignation that as the spiritual church, each one of us much adequately represent Christ.

In Christ's love.

VegasGeorge said:

After I posted above, a thought occurred to me. Even if one refuses to accept that homosexuality itself is a choice, one would have to admit that the continuation of homosexual acts with full knowledge of God's Word forbidding such acts, is a choice. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much moots the "choice" issue.

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No, brother, homosexuality itself is not a choice. Acting on a homosexual urge (though some may be enslaved at times by that as well, the same way heterosexuals are enslaved by lust and fornication and inappropriate contentography, etc) is, as you said, a choice.

Though if you insist on maintaining your position, then please tell me: Why is it a choice for them to change their current sexual orientation but it's not a choice for yourself? In other words, why can they -choose- to be attracted to the opposite sex, yet you can't choose to be attracted to someone of the same sex?

Being born as a crack baby - is not a choice. Being born with a sinful nature is not a choice. Yet we all still choose the Gospel, salvation, we choose to turn from sin and turn to God.

The basics are always the same.

0000 said:

No, brother, homosexuality itself is not a choice. Acting on a homosexual urge (though some may be enslaved at times by that as well, the same way heterosexuals are enslaved by lust and fornication and inappropriate contentography, etc) is, as you said, a choice.

Though if you insist on maintaining your position, then please tell me: Why is it a choice for them to change their current sexual orientation but it's not a choice for yourself? In other words, why can they -choose- to be attracted to the opposite sex, yet you can't choose to be attracted to someone of the same sex?

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I think we're on the same page here. Being a homosexual, that is, being a person who seems to be naturally attracted to the same sex, is NOT a sin. It is the acting out on such an attraction, the sex act itself, which is the sin. Although it's possible to have mental sin without physical action, I don't place homosexual sin in that category.

When you made the distinction above between "homosexuality itself" and continually engaging in homosexual acts, it seemed for a moment as though you were pointing to two different things. I'm glad to hear that wasn't the case. And I most definitely agree with the first part of your statement.

However, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say, "Although it's possible to have mental sin without physical action, I don't place homosexual sin in that category." Are you implying that homosexuals can't sin mentally when homosexual thoughts arise within them?

Well, I can think about taking the Lord's name in vain. But that, in itself, is not a sin insofar as I can tell. It only becomes a sin if I follow through and do it, i.e. blaspheme. However, in Matthew 5:28 Jesus teaches: "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So, many would say that was a sin, even though not acted upon. Then, there is the 10th Commandment, "Thou Shall not Covet." As I understand it, covertness is a sinful mental state, not a physical act. So those examples illustrate the problem.

Now, in Matthew 5:28 I think Jesus was talking about lust in the heart of a heterosexual man. But, I would assume that the same would apply to lust in the heart of a homosexual as well. A lustful heart is sinful, regardless. But, leaving lustful thoughts aside, is it a sin merely to be a person with a homosexual orientation? I'd say no. I've read more than one homosexual apologetic which claims that homosexuals can be just a chaste, just as self controlled, just as sexually moderate as moral heterosexuals. Assuming that to be true, then homosexuals would be no more at risk for lust in the heart sin as are heterosexuals. So, I think it perfectly possible that a person with a homosexual orientation could lead as moral a Christian life as could any heterosexual, by simply abstaining from homosexual sex acts. And, as I said, abstinence (or not) is a choice. It's a difficult choice, especially for the morally weak, but a choice nonetheless.

VegasGeorge said:

Well, I can think about taking the Lord's name in vain. But that, in itself, is not a sin insofar as I can tell. It only becomes a sin if I follow through and do it, i.e. blaspheme. However, in Matthew 5:28 Jesus teaches: "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So, many would say that was a sin, even though not acted upon. Then, there is the 10th Commandment, "Thou Shall not Covet." As I understand it, covertness is a sinful mental state, not a physical act. So those examples illustrate the problem.
.

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The mental covetousness lust desire - restrained only by lack of opportunity - is sin.

But the mental thought that is then banished is not sin.

The alcoholic that longs for more drug but is deprived of "opportunity" is still enslaved. But the one who though having opportunity chooses to be at war with his sinful nature - in true Romans 7 fashion - is not in sin, and will over time experience a change in nature such that the power of the distracting desire lessens so long as he continues to abstain.

VegasGeorge, Matthew 5:28 shows us that it's about intent, so the sin lies not in a heart that produces lustful thoughts, but in willful agreement with said thoughts. It says that if you look with the intention to lust, you've committed adultery in your heart. It's all about our willful compliance. So again, it's not sinful when you feel the desire to lust within yourself (even the Saints experienced lustful thoughts, yet we're told that they were so pure, that they actually saw God as though they were "looking in a mirror"), but rather when people willfully choose to give in to that temptation and thus look and lust after a woman or a man, that is when it's considered sinful.

I mean if you really think about it, we neither choose the thoughts that arise within us, nor do we know what the next thought will be until it manifests itself onto our conscious projection screen (you don't need the Bible, anyone or anything to prove this to yourself), so why would God condemn us for something that's outside of our control? According to St. Isaac, He doesn't.


That's exactly what thoughts (temptations, urges, etc) are: involuntary movements. A heart that continually lusts is a somewhat self-employed entity, but our participation with the filth it produces is what we'll have to give account for on judgment day.

Theodoros the Ascetic says the following:


So our job is not to put an end to temptations or evil thoughts (as even Adam, in his purest, sinless state, in the kingdom of heaven, in the presence of God Himself was tempted), but our duty as a follower of Christ is to choose not to look upon such things and also to deem them as being despicable and shameful - to divert our attention and, as Philippians 4:8 tells us, to think about and bring to mind things which are pure, praiseworthy, noble and true. Heterosexuals can do this and so can homosexuals, which brings me back to the original point. Since sinning mentally means that we willfully choose to look at sinful thoughts, then by definition, homosexuals, without a doubt, can sin mentally. They, like the rest of us, have the ability to focus their attention on good or evil, regardless of whether or not they place an order for the good or evil that arises within them.

We are the quality control - traffic cop for our thoughts. "Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5

We have control over what our mind dwells upon.

0000 said:

No, brother, homosexuality itself is not a choice.

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I have some experience in Christian support groups for people with unwanted same sex attraction. It is interesting how much each person's experience differs. Nature & nurture interact to produce homosexual feelings that are unbidden & unwelcome in many people. The old saying is true: We can't stop the birds flying overhead but we can stop them roosting in the tree.

.

0000 said:

.... so the sin lies not in a heart that produces lustful thoughts, but in willful agreement with said thoughts.

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Yes, I entirely agree. I just didn't think to draw the distinction, assuming for the purpose of my remarks, that "agreement" was present in the mind of the sinner. Speaking for myself, I can't help but have momentary thoughts of a lustful nature when seeing an attractive woman. And, the only way not to see attractive women would be to walk around wearing a blindfold. I just don't allow myself to dwell on such thoughts. And, it is the "dwelling" on such thoughts which constitutes the lusting of which Christ spoke.

Many, if not all sins, are like that. As you said, we have no control over what thoughts pop into our heads. So, we might momentarily consider committing any number of sins. But, we chose not to.