Free will
- Thread starter fatboys
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of predestination is that certain people (elect) are predestined for salvation, while others are predestined to be condemned to Hell.
What does that mean though? When you say "come to God", to me that sounds like having faith in Christ. Well we know that we are saved by our faith in Christ alone, and if you don't have faith you cannot have salvation.
And you said it's "only because God makes it possible"...well doesn't God make it possible for anyone to have faith? If there were some people He predestined to not have that possibility in their lives, that would mean they were predestined to be condemned. Because the only thing that could have saved them, they did not have the free will to obtain.
I just imagine these nonbelievers standing before God at the white throne, and God saying to them, "Why did you rebel from me? Why did you not come to faithe in me?" But at this nonbeliever could say, "Well how could I have faith? You didn't give me the free will to obtain it." If they did have the free will, then God can hold them accountable, because it is more like, "You had the opportunity, the means were made available to you, and you freely chose not to take it. Therefore you are responsible for this outcome."
We may not be able to fully comprehend God, but clearly we can comprehend Him enough to faithe in God and His promises. Just because faith is harder for some people to have than others, doesn't mean it's completely out of our capabilities. The Bible tells us how we can have faith and how to grow our faith, and especially today I think we have lots more knowledge and evidence than in days past to facilitate our personal seeking of Christ.
Basically I am saying for some people who are hard-headed, faith requires a lot of digging and searching for truth to be convinced, but the person still has the free will to either take up that quest, or just decide it's not worth his time. But if that person didn't even have the free will to have faith, then all that seeking and studying to learn the truth of God was in vain.
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Albion
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I thought that's what you were thinking. While it would describe Predestination as understood by some people, it's not automatic or necessary; and most "Predestinarians" apparently do not believe in this concept that's often called "Double Predestination."
Sure.
What makes you think so? There are jillions of atheists who have read the same Bible verses you have, and they aren't persuaded.
I don't know why you'd assume that to be so.
IF they were otherwise blameless, yes. Do you know any such people who have never done any wrong and can therefore be said to deserve salvation?
Doesn't Scripture speak more to the point that God will hold us accountable for our sins? If one is a believer, his sins are forgiven; if he is not a believer, he is accountable for them.
How do you know that?
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That is called double-predestination, and it is what Calvin taught. Luther's concept is a bit different. While for Calvin eternal damnation was for the 'glory of God' as someone here stated, for Luther it was the outcome of the Deus Obsconditus, the Hidden God about whose activities we would not understand before the end of time. Rather we should concentrate on the Deus Revelatus by which God desires that all should be saved. I think it is also fair to say that Luther's view of predestination is post-lapsarium, an emergency measure necessitated by the fall.
And of course, Via Crucis will correct me if I'm wrong.
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This is what "free will" means to me...
(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
I choose Life.
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Merit? That word isn't in there, nor the idea. I don't think you have the right idea what that scriptures means if you think "merit" is something to be introduced into it...
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I am reading deu chapter 30 after your post and I would like to ask your opinion on 30:7
7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
How do you think that curse is working ?. Enemies of Jews were/are flourishing.How one can explain that ?.
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That did happen. You can read about that especially in the times of the Judges. God protected Israel from Her enemies, clear up until she widowed Herself when she murdered Her Husband.
We are in a New Covenant now of course, and they broke the Old Covenant with God, so none of that is in effect since the time the Kingdom of God was ushered in 2000 years ago. Now there is no curse, only Blessings
If you would like to see scriptures on any one of these points, please just ask. I think you maybe are supposed to know some things, just a feelingThank you for asking.
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ViaCrucis
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That is called double-predestination, and it is what Calvin taught. Luther's concept is a bit different. While for Calvin eternal damnation was for the 'glory of God' as someone here stated, for Luther it was the outcome of the Deus Obsconditus, the Hidden God about whose activities we would not understand before the end of time. Rather we should concentrate on the Deus Revelatus by which God desires that all should be saved. I think it is also fair to say that Luther's view of predestination is post-lapsarium, an emergency measure necessitated by the fall.
And of course, Via Crucis will correct me if I'm wrong.
The starting point of Calvinist and Lutheran ideas of predestination are, arguably, quite different. What we'd call the Material Principle of any given theological system or idea. The Material Principle of Lutheran theology is the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone, it is the central doctrinal position upon which the entire Lutheran tradition depends. On the other hand the Material Principle of Calvinism is the glory of God.
The Lutheran doctrine of Predestination arises from the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone; man is helpless in his sin to turn toward God and is therefore dependent upon the gracious God to save him. The gracious God has, in His mercy, elected all those who would be redeemed in Jesus Christ--without excluding anyone. This means that the only way one will not, in the end, be saved is because they willfully reject God's mercy. Christ having died for the whole world means, indeed, that God has saved and is saying the whole world, nevertheless, some will or may not be saved; not on account of a God who refuses them salvation, withholds from them salvation, passes over them, or does not desire for them salvation, but only because they willfully refuse His salvation.
The Calvinist doctrine of Predestination arises from the doctrine of divine sovereignty. It is God's right as Lord and Sovereign to save whom He will according to His own good pleasure, that He elects any to salvation is for His own glory--to which He has right as Lord and Sovereign God. No one deserves mercy, so that God has, by His good pleasure, elected any to be saved by sending Christ to die for those elect is entirely an act of His kindness--so He has mercy on whom He has mercy and withholds mercy from whomever He will withhold mercy. According to His sovereign right as Lord.
In Lutheranism the Crux Theologorum--the Theologian's Cross--is the annoying fact that Scripture both speaks of God's unconditional election and the universal grace of God for all by the Christ who died for all in order that all be saved. How can it be that if salvation is solely by the unilateral work of God acting apart from ourselves that, in addition to the fact that He desires that all be saved, any should perish at all? These things we do not understand and cannot understand because they are hidden from us; and instead we must confess only what is revealed to us. Even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Thus for Lutherans the will of man is free to reject God, but is not free to accept God. Salvation is solely by the grace of God working faith,
"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves." - The Large Catechism
-CryptoLutheran
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There isn't much difference between choosing to not reject God and choosing to accept God IMO.
I like the Gnostic theory where little sparks of God fell into a subset of humans. The humans containing those sparks try to free the sparks to go back to God. This is a more sensible form of predestination. All the sparks will be saved, but they do not reside in all humans. Of course this could be used to justify elitist attitudes.
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Jane_the_Bane
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Funny that you should hinge this concept on the (thoroughly subjective) perception of truth.
Can I randomly decide what I believe to be true? Can I decide that the sky isn't blue after all, or that grass isn't green?
Reality is not determined democratically. Even if I convinced a million people that solid stones float upwards when released instead of dropping to the ground, they'd still fall down.
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Jane_the_Bane
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Does a universe that's already "played out" when viewed from the outside negate the notion of choice, though? Even free choices lead to a specific outcome when viewed in retrospect.
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Also true if you convinced them that Eden was in Missouri and that there is a Heavenly Mother nigh unto Kolob.
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Why does freewill matter in Christianity?
Or does it matter in Christianity?
Or does it matter in other religions?
It seems to me that uncertainty is the essence of transcendence. When I make decisions, I don't know my decision for certain until it is a memory. A sufficiently powerful computer might be able to accurately predict my decisions, but my brain cannot. That makes me feel like part of me transcends the physical.
Or does it matter in Christianity?
Or does it matter in other religions?
It seems to me that uncertainty is the essence of transcendence. When I make decisions, I don't know my decision for certain until it is a memory. A sufficiently powerful computer might be able to accurately predict my decisions, but my brain cannot. That makes me feel like part of me transcends the physical.
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The difficult part would be convincing me there was ever an actual Eden.
As for a Heavenly Mother why would that be more difficult to believe in than a God? My only question would be, why then doesn't she get equal time?
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You're right; which is why "choosing to not reject God" isn't within the Lutheran understanding. It is not an act of choice at all that bridges the gap between us and God; it is solely the grace of God that bridges that gap, and it moves in one direction only--from God to man.
The will isn't free, it is enslaved to sin. Lutheranism therefore speaks of God overcoming our enslaved will to rescue us. It is the gracious act of God condescending to rescue sinners in spite of their will, in spite of their choices to refuse and reject God.
A good question to ask then is if God overcomes our fallen will to refuse Him, and it is God's desire that all be saved, how then does anyone continue to reject Him? Which brings us back to the Crux Theologorum.
-CryptoLutheran
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