why is Oneness unorthodox/frowned upon?

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The idea of a co-equal Trinity, however, offers a reasonable means of expressing the inexpressible;
but it must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word " Trinity" appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.
Just a minute. You started out well there, but then moved into some questionable areas. The idea is close to being the only possible explanation--so long as we go by what the Bible IN ALL ITS BOOKS presents to us. That means that we are not, as Christians, given to saying that only Christ's own utterances mean anything to us. It's all revelation.

Yes, the word "Trinity" was only coined later (just like many other words we commonly use in order to refer to a Biblical concept) but that doesn't mean that the idea itself only originated then. Similarly, the origin being called 'pagan,' while a favored theory of some religious bodies, is countered by the wording of the Bible itself--and it's that wording which almost unavoidably leaves us to believe in a trinity.
 
Upvote 0

jugghead

Growing
May 25, 2015
286
286
65
Smyrna, TN
✟24,188.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
IMO the single word "Trinity" is just that .... a single word, but it is a single word that describes three words .... those three words being "three in one" ..... "three in one" is just one definition of the word "Trinity" ..... just like the word "set" can describe more than one of what is being described.... like a "set of dishes"

and in the same sense .... the word "God" is a single word that describes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as one being .... so in the same sense The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is the definition of the word "God"

Again, this is just my opinion
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Just a minute. You started out well there, but then moved into some questionable areas. The idea is close to being the only possible explanation--so long as we go by what the Bible IN ALL ITS BOOKS presents to us. That means that we are not, as Christians, given to saying that only Christ's own utterances mean anything to us. It's all revelation.Yes, the word "Trinity" was only coined later (just like many other words we commonly use in order to refer to a Biblical concept) but that doesn't mean that the idea itself only originated then. Similarly, the origin being called 'pagan,' while a favored theory of some religious bodies, is countered by the wording of the Bible itself--and it's that wording which almost unavoidably leaves us to believe in a trinity.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
Upvote 0

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

How is any of this supportive of oneness theology? Right from the first verse we can see the distinction between the "Spirit of God", "Christ", and "God" (the Father).
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
How is any of this supportive of oneness theology? Right from the first verse we can see the distinction between the "Spirit of God", "Christ", and "God" (the Father).
INDEED, how much plainer can it be? Exodus 2:23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. (24) So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. (25) And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of Him. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose descent have been from the ancients, foretold in old times.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall sit down as judge: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
15 And [in that day] I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Jesus, himself stated that he was not SPIRIT! Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The church is a body or assembly of people and is not called ‘he’ or ‘she’ but could be called ‘it’. Jesus is the headstone of the ecclesia. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (kephale̅ tou Christou ho theos). Rather, God is the head of Christ, since kephale̅ is anarthrous and predicate. [RWP] 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Spirit of God makes his home (oikei) in us, not in temples made with hands (Act_7:48; Act_17:24). [RWP]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having appropriated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
 
Upvote 0

CGL1023

citizen of heaven
Jul 8, 2011
1,340
267
Roswell NM
✟75,781.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
If UPCI is "Oneness Pentacostal", then yes, it is considered a heresy because the Bible is clear that God is three persons in one God, all of them present at the same time.

I am trinitarian but I have never heard it stated that they are all "present at the same time. I know that in this church age that the Father and Jesus are in heaven (we know of this thru Stephen at his stoning) and the Holy Spirit is God on this earth (distributed among the spirit-filled believers). My question may have to do with term definition.

Question: If, as I am taught, the Spirit is on earth and Father and Son in heaven, is that the same as "all of them present at the same time".

I simply do not know. I would speak of the members collectively as the Godhead, conveying the idea that they were thinking/acting/speaking in concert -- does that mean "all of them present at the same time".

I spent a few months at a Oneness fellowship and I was challenged to do some reading on the subject. I got only as far as seeing that the same bible is used to argue both sides. Invariably the Oneness advocates speak only for Oneness and the Trinitarian defends only the trinitarian view. A person has to be a bible scholar to debate this subject because ordinary school room techniques won't move the ball at all.

One stand I saw taken on a website was a trinitarian arguing that you weren't saved unless you were Trinitarian. How would a seeker do the research needed to intelligently decide between one or the other? In doing so, they may remain unsaved for a long time; in fact, in these last days they may be forced into the tribulation for taking too much time to make the correct decision.
 
Upvote 0

ken777

"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"
Aug 6, 2007
2,245
661
Australia
✟48,308.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which takes us to a key point: Athanasius compiled the list of 27 books that comprise your New Testament; he was the first to publish the modern scriptural canon, and thus must be regarded as divinely inspired insofar as he is the de facto editor of that anthology we call the New Testament. And he rejected your doctrine. I dont understand why you rely on a scriptural canon compiled by the strongest opponent of your theology, and cite it as proof of the truths you hold dear, when there are a wealth of other books that many considered scripture, that St. Athanasius rejected, which can be read in support of your doctrine with greater ease.
I have heard that argument before but the NT canon was arrived at through grass roots consensus. Athansius might have been the first to list the books but it certainly does not indicate he was any more divinely inspired than any other believer.

The history of the gradual development of the Tinitarian formula is very problematic. Tertullian acknowledged the prevalence of the Oneness understanding in 'Against Praxeas' (c AD 213).

The Trinitarian definition was arrived at through much wrangling, often quite vitriolic, over hundreds of years by intellectuals with a thorough understanding of Greek thought.

The last 500 years have seen a return to the original truth that God is one being who has revealed Himself in three personas (roles).

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abysmul
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I am trinitarian but I have never heard it stated that they are all "present at the same time. I know that in this church age that the Father and Jesus are in heaven (we know of this thru Stephen at his stoning) and the Holy Spirit is God on this earth (distributed among the spirit-filled believers). My question may have to do with term definition. Question: If, as I am taught, the Spirit is on earth and Father and Son in heaven, is that the same as "all of them present at the same time". .
Ezactly, As John W. Ritenbaugh says: I am like Nehemiah who was willing to be different, a non-conformist if conforming was wrong. His respect for God and what God thought was greater than his fear of what men would think of him or what he would have to deny himself.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose descent have been from the ancients, foretold in old times.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall sit down as judge: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
15 And [in that day] I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:
and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
 
Upvote 0

samcarternx

saint
Jul 17, 2010
865
87
✟16,463.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What does "I and my Father are one." mean then? What did Paul mean when he said Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referring to God? I don't want to wrangle over the word "trinity". I seems to me self evident. I am called heretic if I believe in the trinity, and I am called a heretic if I don't. This squabble seems like a self-inflicted wound.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: abysmul
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jugghead

Growing
May 25, 2015
286
286
65
Smyrna, TN
✟24,188.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What does "I and my Father are one." mean then? What did Paul mean when he said Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referring to God? I don't want to wrangle over the word "trinity". I seems to me self evident. I am called heretic if I believe in the trinity, and I am called a heretic if I don't. This squabble seems like a self-inflicted wound.

Here is my understanding ... in the same way that we see body, soul and spirit .... we can also see Father, Son, and Spirit ...

Son = body
Soul = Father
Spirit = Spirit

But also that the Son (Christ) is also a body, soul and Spirit (as we are),
...The Son (Christ) is the body of the soul and Spirit ... (soul) Father and spirit (Spirit) (the Father and His Spirit in the body of Christ)
....also the Spirit (Holy Spirit) ... the Spirits body is Christ and its soul is the Father
..... also The Father (soul) .... The Father's body is His Son (Christ) and the Spirit is His Spirit (both being of the same Spirit)

this is seeing each one individually from its own viewpoint which is:
a expanded viewpoint of all in all ... which is also in the same way (understanding) ...The Father and I are one
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The bible never says God is not one. Twice it refers to God as one and never as three. This makes no sense to me. Apostolic's are persecuted for this belief and to me It makes no sense.
As I have offered, "oneness" people can persecute trinitarian people; I have heard oneness people talk in a very despising way about trinitarians in general, and where I was visiting they called off communion, once.

Not only do certain oneness people say there is not a Trinity, but certain oneness people, not all, claim you must name Jesus over your immersion in water or you are not saved. So, they are not only persecuting trinitarians but they are teaching that trinitarians are not saved.

But, like I say, not all oneness people do this; I am saying there are those who do and those who do not discriminate. And not all trinitarians persecute "apostolics". I let each person represent oneself, and see if and how we share about Jesus and God's word.

God is one. Also the Bible does say,

"And there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

So, three can be one, according to this in the word of God. But, I offer > here being "one" is not only about number, but unity and agreement. Being one can mean being perfectly in agreement, perfectly in union, perfectly sharing and relating with one another, and of course perfectly the same in nature, which I understand is the case for our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So, here, it does not mean They are one in number, only; it does call Them "three".

A man and his wife can be "one", though they are two personalities. So, being "one" is not always talking only about number.

What does "I and my Father are one." mean then? What did Paul mean when he said Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referring to God? I don't want to wrangle over the word "trinity". I seems to me self evident. I am called heretic if I believe in the trinity, and I am called a heretic if I don't. This squabble seems like a self-inflicted wound.
Ok, so here I think Jesus means that He and the Father are one, by being perfectly in agreement in how They share and relate and in nature. You can't be perfectly agreed unless you have the same character, I consider :)

And this does not mean there are more than one "god". It is like how there is one gold and gold has more than one form, but all with the same nature. There is but one gold, and gold exists in many forms. "Like this", there is one God and He exists in the personal forms of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. So, this is not like Greek mythology in which gods can be so different in personality and character, I understand.

Jesus says, "All things that the Father has are mine," in John 16:15. I understand that our Father has divinity; so does Jesus. So, He is God, as the Son of God. A human son has the same nature as his human father, but they are two different persons, by the way. It is kind of "hard" for a son to be his own father.

And Romans 5:5 shows us that the Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us, "in our hearts". So, from this I see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love. Only God can be the Spirit of His own love, I understand. So, the Holy Spirit also is God, but spoken of as a different Person, in the Bible.

So, They are one in nature of love, but three different Persons of the same love, Their oneness including how They are perfectly one in nature and how They share and relate and work together. But there are people who have never perfectly shared and related with anybody; so this can be something they do not have the experience and nature to grasp. So, instead, they find ways to be at odds with other people; their are both trinitarians and oneness people who have relating problems and they use their self-favoring doctrine to excuse them to look down on others, instead of first loving any and all people the way Jesus has us loving. But, also, I find there are oneness and trinitarians who are not first or mainly about finding ways to be different so they can look down on others.

Each Person has specialized love purposes. These include how our Father has overall management, while Jesus has come to earth to die for us and save us and now rules all, and the Holy Spirit deals with sinners, gives birth to children of God, and cares for us and prepares us for our Groom Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What does "I and my Father are one." mean then? What did Paul mean when he said Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referring to God? I don't want to wrangle over the word "trinity". I seems to me self evident. I am called heretic if I believe in the trinity, and I am called a heretic if I don't. This squabble seems like a self-inflicted wound.
The same thing as when he said, Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all is things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
God is one. Also the Bible does say, "And there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) So, here, it does not mean They are one in number, only; it does call Them "three".
1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF. Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since. http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts.
All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
http://bible-researcher.com/comma.html
(For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)
Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Note: ** by Jesus Christ is Omitted in the original translations.**
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father
 
Upvote 0

samcarternx

saint
Jul 17, 2010
865
87
✟16,463.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The same thing as when he said, Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So far more than three are involved in the unity and oneness of God, so "trinity" misses the mark. right? Hey, I get it. There is no trinity because I and my Father are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
These extra words are generally absent
I'm going by images, too, including how Jesus "is the image of God", in 2 Corinthians 4:4. For me, it can be like how gold can be in various places: there is but one gold; yet, gold can be in more than one personal form, at the same time. Like this, God who is "love" (1 John 4:8&16) is love as the Person of our Father, and love in the personal form of Jesus His Son, and love as the Holy Spirit who shares our Father's own love with us "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

Also, Jesus says >

"'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (John 5:22-23)

So - - God wants us to honor Jesus "just as" we honor our Father? To me, this means to honor Jesus as God.

So, even if certain religious people fraudulently added a few words, in order to "prove" the Trinity, I have more to go by, than just a few words. Also . . . I consider >

Yes, there might be people who say that certain Bible things had to be added, because they only appear in manuscripts dating later than ones not having those supposedly added words. However, I consider > the earlier dated writings missing the words could be the ones which fell into disuse so they could last until discovered - - while the earlier copies of authentic writings with the words would have been worn out by use, so that their copies discovered would only be dated later . . . since earlier copies were known to be authentic and therefore were used and worn so they would not be discovered . . . for all I know :)
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I'm going by images, too, including how Jesus "is the image of God", in 2 Corinthians 4:4. )
1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF. Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since. http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts.
All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
http://bible-researcher.com/comma.html
(For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)

Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Note: ** by Jesus Christ is Omitted in the original translations.**

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father

You did not read what I posted:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "d?́d?μ?" will give it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translatorand is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
and Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century.
However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . (Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135)
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135
Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So far more than three are involved in the unity and oneness of God, so "trinity" misses the mark. right? Hey, I get it. There is no trinity because I and my Father are one.
Hmmmnn 1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF. Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since. http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts.
All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
http://bible-researcher.com/comma.html
(For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)

Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Note: ** by Jesus Christ is Omitted in the original translations.**

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father

You did not read what I posted:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also to make the worlds;
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. **Now the meaning is cause, communication, a word, account, words (G3056 Mt 5:32, 37; 12:32,36, 37 John 4:37, 39; 12:38, saying)
John 1:8 Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared and in John 15:15 for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 the Son says: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, "d?́d?μ?" will give it you. *NOTE: "HE" may is supplied by the translatorand is not the actual translation.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name.
and Heb 1:8 But to the Son the throne, of your God, is for ever and ever: and the
scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him. Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 1:14 does not here say that the logos entered into a man or dwelt in a man or filled a man. By this word John insists that in the human Jesus he beheld the Shekinah (a Hebrew word that literally means "He caused to dwell) the glory of God. By this plural John speaks for himself and all those who saw in Jesus what he did. (Bernard).
Note also the absence of the article with the predicate substantive so that it cannot mean “the flesh became the Word.”
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 and he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:;
Jesus said it was to the "will of God and not his will that he should die. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Christ himself revealed the coming Spirit of God who also possessed divine attributes and too was spoken of as distinct from the Father. These statements of Jesus, along with the teaching of the epistles of Paul and John, presented a unique theological challenge to the early Christians.
Speaking of Trinitarianism in the ante-Nicene period is somewhat anachronistic, since the word Trinity (Lat. trinitas) was first coined by the Latin father Tertullian in the 2nd century, and the Trinitarian doctrine was not solidified as dogma until the early 4th century.
However, Roger Olson reminds us that "Christian belief in God as triune did not arise in the fourth century with Roman emporer Constantine and the Christian bishops that he dominated. Belief that it arose then as part of a vague paganizing or Hellenizing of Christianity is a caricature often promoted . (Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135)
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("rua? Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15)
The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 135
Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. Pleople do not have immortality in the second death.
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All Three are present, individually and simultaneously present at His Baptism, which most should agree is problematic for those saying there is only one individual; and by one meaning something like the Three are just expressions, modes, forms, manifestations, roles,...etc., of just one Person. To me that simultaneous appearance of Three is an undeniable depiction from scripture. As is the obvious pre-existence of all Three.

As that pre-existence includes Jesus, the Word, this debate to me would have to be in what manner did the Word and the Holy Spirit exist prior and whether than manner is the same or different from the Father. The orthodox view is that manner is the Same - meaning Divine (which includes also Eternal =also before creation) - and as such there is no room for three Gods, only One - so One God, Three Persons. For everyone else its seems only logical to say there is only One Divine, the Father and the other two are either something less. The something less part varies greatly depending on who is claiming it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
All Three are present, individually and simultaneously present at His Baptism, which most should agree is problematic for those saying there is only one individual; [/QUOTE ] Here is the Koine , so you are saying that the Bible LIES. It does not say Jesus is God, in fact it says just the opposite:
δια Ιησου Χριστου , by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [CLARKE]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
My advice for you would be Hosea 10:12 Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him. 17 He is in front of all things, and in him all things stand together. :18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.
by him rather as Greek, “in Him” as the conditional element, and is a different fact from the present one [Alford]
 
Upvote 0