An Article I Found Validating Christ's Deity

Kutte · Jul 5, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
In these terms I would think it obvious that Adam would be considered a "truly" man, both as God made him - to love Him with all his heart - both before and after the Fall. The only difference would be because of sin Adam could no longer have the relationship he formerly had with God. Adam could still love God with all his heart, but that could not repair what he had done. The "restoration" of the human race requires a supernatural act to make it possible to repair our relationship with God. And it is a restoration - not a transformation of humans into something else. All humans owe what we are to Adam's creation, including Jesus. So am unclear how to see Jesus as not "truly" man.

If by imperfections one means He could not have scars, feel pain or be weak, bad breath, BO...etc - physical limitations of being human, then you have misunderstood. Being human He had all that while He walked here. A perfect man in the sense I meant it would be like Adam before He sinned. Adam could "walk with God". In the womb, the manner of His creation preclude the "stain" of sin before He entered this world and He remained sinless as Scripture says (and said He would be).That is what is meant by a perfect man.

And BTW we can be "perfected" in this life, just not natural to be born that way or if stay that way because of inclination to sin. Those that the Bible depicts "walking into Heaven" instead of dying had to be in a perfect relationship with God in order for that to be possible.

Dear DrBubbaLove,

Seems to me we are gliding into a new area of discussion while talking about Adam.
Did you ever consider that Adam can not be blamed for sinning while he lacked any awareness of good and bad?
Do you realize that He simply was in no position to judge who was telling the truth in Eden, a god or the serpent, while lacking this knowledge?

If Adam would have continued to be ignorant of good and bad he may have been killed next time a lightening bolt strikes. Because he couldn't tell the difference between good and bad thereby avoiding to seek cover to protect himself.

Lacking knowledge of good and bad is not a virtue. You will have to agree that even Jesus knew the difference and so does everyone else on this heavenly planet we call Earth.

Kutte

Winepress777 · Jul 5, 2015

James Is Back said:
Came across this article while researching the deity of Christ. Really good article validating Christ's deity:

http://www.equip.org/articles/jesus-as-god/#christian-books-3

He's most certainly my Lord God. I know of no other. I worship no other. I'm Married to no other... His Name is Jesus and I tell everyone about this only True Living God

Glad to see a decent article linked :oldthumbsup:

DrBubbaLove · Jul 5, 2015

Kutte said:
Dear DrBubbaLove,

Seems to me we are gliding into a new area of discussion while talking about Adam.
Did you ever consider that Adam can not be blamed for sinning while he lacked any awareness of good and bad?
Do you realize that He simply was in no position to judge who was telling the truth in Eden, a god or the serpent, while lacking this knowledge?

If Adam would have continued to be ignorant of good and bad he may have been killed next time a lightening bolt strikes. Because he couldn't tell the difference between good and bad thereby avoiding to seek cover to protect himself.

Lacking knowledge of good and bad is not a virtue. You will have to agree that even Jesus knew the difference and so does everyone else on this heavenly planet we call Earth.

Kutte

How is it possible to be told there is one thing you cannot do by your Creator, yet not realize it would be wrong to do it anyway? The "awareness" one speaks of and scripture references regarding Adam and Eve arises from the sin of self pride and the immediate embarrassment it makes possible (& one reason excessive shyness is considered the result of excessive self pride). It is the sin of pride which made them embarrassed and caused them to hide from God.

I do not believe God made Adam and Eve ignorant simpletons. He made them, pure which in this discussion means without an inclination to sin but still free to choose to do so. One can neither be free to choose or blamed if one is ignorant of the decision being made - even human sense of justice recognizes guilt requires a mental ascent to a crime. One cannot ascent to something one is unaware of being a crime. It is impossible then to view God as less just than humans. So I reject the notion that Adam and Eve are ignorant of right and wrong in the choice they made. And since the Bible suggests there was only one thing they could not do and were told By God they should not do it or else (note He did not tell them He would stop them from choosing poorly), it makes no sense to suggest it was a matter of whom to believe.

At best one could say, as many have and I accept, Eve was deceived/tricked into doing it by Satan. Adam watched, allowed her to do it and then freely chose to do the same knowing it was wrong. It was Adam that brought the curse on mankind, not Eve by essentially saying to God, my will not Thy Will be done (there is that pride again).

The Bible also clearly says we are made in His Image and His "Law" is written on our hearts. God literally is Good. By that we do not mean a really swell guy, but "is" what we could only fathom as that which is All Good (nothing else more Good). Whatever else one thinks it means to be made in His Image, it would have to mean we, all of us, are made with some of that Good in us. Which helps explain why it can be said the knowledge of His Law is written on our hearts, where we each know the difference between right and wrong.

Again, We owe our humanity to God who made our first Parents and so our humanity comes to us through Adam and Eve. All of humanity is marred because of what Adam did, creating in us an inclination to sin, and from the first sin of Adam onward those sins work against our nature (to love Him with all our hearts). Which explains why it snowballed in them (Adam and Eve) and us. Once you get dirty, it becomes easier and easier to get dirtier still.
The Catechism describes all this much better than I ever could.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

DrBubbaLove · Jul 5, 2015

Kute,
Found another good article concerning the creation and the fall.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin

In particular this part would be relevant:

Christian tradition teaches the opposite: that humankind was originally created in a state of innocence and justice, in full possession of the dignity proper to our species, and was provided with preternatural gifts that elevated and perfected human nature. Adam was Superman, not Tarzan. Human beings in the garden were not subject to the frailties and failings of our present life. They possessed the preternatural gifts of:

impassibility (freedom from pain)
immortality (freedom from death)
integrity (freedom from concupiscence, or disordered
desires)
infused knowledge (freedom from ignorance in matters
essential for happiness)

They were not inclined to do evil; their understanding and reason were not darkened by pride or lust; they had a perfect knowledge of the moral law; they did not experience any opposition between the spirit and the body; and all of the parts of the soul existed in a state of order and harmony in relation to one another. The material world was a paradise that supported human life; work was a source of pleasure and accomplishment; and all of the human faculties were able to function and flourish to their fullest potential.

Kutte · Jul 6, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
How is it possible to be told there is one thing you cannot do by your Creator, yet not realize it would be wrong to do it anyway? The "awareness" one speaks of and scripture references regarding Adam and Eve arises from the sin of self pride and the immediate embarrassment it makes possible (& one reason excessive shyness is considered the result of excessive self pride). It is the sin of pride which made them embarrassed and caused them to hide from God.

I do not believe God made Adam and Eve ignorant simpletons. He made them, pure which in this discussion means without an inclination to sin but still free to choose to do so. One can neither be free to choose or blamed if one is ignorant of the decision being made - even human sense of justice recognizes guilt requires a mental ascent to a crime. One cannot ascent to something one is unaware of being a crime. It is impossible then to view God as less just than humans. So I reject the notion that Adam and Eve are ignorant of right and wrong in the choice they made. And since the Bible suggests there was only one thing they could not do and were told By God they should not do it or else (note He did not tell them He would stop them from choosing poorly), it makes no sense to suggest it was a matter of whom to believe.

At best one could say, as many have and I accept, Eve was deceived/tricked into doing it by Satan. Adam watched, allowed her to do it and then freely chose to do the same knowing it was wrong. It was Adam that brought the curse on mankind, not Eve by essentially saying to God, my will not Thy Will be done (there is that pride again).

The Bible also clearly says we are made in His Image and His "Law" is written on our hearts. God literally is Good. By that we do not mean a really swell guy, but "is" what we could only fathom as that which is All Good (nothing else more Good). Whatever else one thinks it means to be made in His Image, it would have to mean we, all of us, are made with some of that Good in us. Which helps explain why it can be said the knowledge of His Law is written on our hearts, where we each know the difference between right and wrong.

Again, We owe our humanity to God who made our first Parents and so our humanity comes to us through Adam and Eve. All of humanity is marred because of what Adam did, creating in us an inclination to sin, and from the first sin of Adam onward those sins work against our nature (to love Him with all our hearts). Which explains why it snowballed in them (Adam and Eve) and us. Once you get dirty, it becomes easier and easier to get dirtier still.
The Catechism describes all this much better than I ever could.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

Hi DrBubbaLove,

Yes, Eve was deceived because she didn't know the difference between good and bad. You may reject the "notion" that Adam and Eve were ignorant of right and wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that they were because the lacked and were forbidden to access knowledge of good and bad. This made them imperfect human beings.

Since you touched on God's intention to make man in his image, may I recommend reading the true story of man's creation? Check out Genesis 1:26-28: God said, "Let us make man- someone like ourselves,- to be masters of all life upon the earth and in the skies and the seas." So God made man like his Maker, like God did God make man. Man and maid did he make them. And God blessed them and told them, "Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it; you are masters of the fish and birds and all the animals..."
Do you realize what this implies? In other words God told man to get off his behinds to experience sweat, troubles and pains while subduing planet earth, ruling over animals and vegetation. On can not do those undertakings while lacking awareness of good and bad.

Can you see what we have here? Two stories regarding the creation of man. One of them is a fake.

Kutte

DrBubbaLove · Jul 6, 2015

Kutte,
There are two stories in Genesis of the creation account. Not sure which one you are implying is fake.

The Fall of man is clearly depicted and the toil you mention is part of that course. The tree of knowledge is indeed there and no longer available to us as God kicked them out of the Garden. The depiction of man's existence prior to the Fall seems ideal, a Paradise where there was only one thing they were told to not do. All the plants they could eat - so getting food was no chore - that would all be so AFTER the Fall.

I see from the response you did not bother reading the articles I linked. The trees are symbolic and real. The "knowledge" gained by "eating" the forbidden fruit is simply opening there eyes to the reality that they free to disobey God, which means after that point EVERYTHING that was (according to God prior to the Fall) Very Good, now has the potential (in their minds) for evil. Their choice then corrupts all of Creation. So it was not that they were stupid cavemen, in fact the story itself suggests Adam was very smart, tasked with the care of the garden and naming all the animals, and apparently was around long enough to realize something was missing (woman).

interpreter · Jul 7, 2015

The proof of Jesus, that He is the Son of God, is the fulfillment of his prophecies. For example, we are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, such as skin cancer, red tides, global warming, the Euphrates recently dried up, and we are now fighting the Battle of Ar Mageddon which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry.

Kutte · Jul 7, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Kutte,
There are two stories in Genesis of the creation account. Not sure which one you are implying is fake.

The Fall of man is clearly depicted and the toil you mention is part of that course. The tree of knowledge is indeed there and no longer available to us as God kicked them out of the Garden. The depiction of man's existence prior to the Fall seems ideal, a Paradise where there was only one thing they were told to not do. All the plants they could eat - so getting food was no chore - that would all be so AFTER the Fall.

I see from the response you did not bother reading the articles I linked. The trees are symbolic and real. The "knowledge" gained by "eating" the forbidden fruit is simply opening there eyes to the reality that they free to disobey God, which means after that point EVERYTHING that was (according to God prior to the Fall) Very Good, now has the potential (in their minds) for evil. Their choice then corrupts all of Creation. So it was not that they were stupid cavemen, in fact the story itself suggests Adam was very smart, tasked with the care of the garden and naming all the animals, and apparently was around long enough to realize something was missing (woman).

Hi DrBubbasLove,

Yes, I understand why many people prefer the biblical account of man having been created in a beautiful paradise garden called Eden. It fits our more or less hidden desires for not having to work hard, no challenges to overcome, convenience, plenty of good food, free provision. It was perfectly alright for Adam and Eve to walk around naked, since the weather must haven been a constant balmy 75 degrees with no cold or heat to worry about. No thunderstorms too. The only thing they were told to do was to name all the animals. The tragedy about all of this is that they were ordered not to gain any awareness of the good things Eden was offering them.

You see, DrBubbaLove, Eden is not only a fake but a clever trap, planted in Genesis on purpose. It has no incentives for creativity to offer because everything was supposedly already perfect. True happiness can be achieved right here and now by climbing a mountain, by experiencing sweat, troubles and pain. Once now you reach the top you will realize what true happiness is all about.

Kutte

Der Alte · Jul 8, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi DrBubbasLove,

Yes, I understand why many people prefer the biblical account of man having been created in a beautiful paradise garden called Eden. It fits our more or less hidden desires for not having to work hard, [Totally false! DA] no challenges to overcome, convenience, plenty of good food, free provision. It was perfectly alright for Adam and Eve to walk around naked, since the weather must haven been a constant balmy 75 degrees with no cold or heat to worry about. No thunderstorms too. The only thing they were told to do was to name all the animals.

The tragedy about all of this is that they were ordered not to gain any awareness of the good things Eden was offering them. [Totally false! DA]

You see, DrBubbaLove, Eden is not only a fake but a clever trap, planted in Genesis on purpose. It has no incentives for creativity to offer because everything was supposedly already perfect. True happiness can be achieved right here and now by climbing a mountain, by experiencing sweat, troubles and pain. Once now you reach the top you will realize what true happiness is all about.

Kutte

Have you ever actually read the creation account?
.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it [work, serve, till, labor] and to keep [hedge about, guard, protect, attend] it.

Kutte · Jul 8, 2015

Der Alter said:
Have you ever actually read the creation account?
.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it [work, serve, till, labor] and to keep [hedge about, guard, protect, attend] it.

Hi Der Alter,

How are you doing? Haven't seen you in a while.
Have I ever actually read the the creation account? Of course I have, a number of times. Besides giving all the animals a name, which may have taken a few years at the most by the way, they were advised to cultivate and take care of the garden they were placed in. This doesn't really look like a big challenge to me. Guarding and protect it? Against what and Whom? I don't think they needed to protect the garden against pests or outside enemies. A paradise garden does not feature harmful insects, thistles or thorns, no weeds either.
Alter, did you read the real story about the creation of man? It's quiet different: Genesis 1:26-28:

Wishing you well, Kutte

Der Alte · Jul 8, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi Der Alter,

How are you doing? Haven't seen you in a while.
Have I ever actually read the the creation account? Of course I have, a number of times. Besides giving all the animals a name, which may have taken a few years at the most by the way, they were advised to cultivate and take care of the garden they were placed in. This doesn't really look like a big challenge to me. Guarding and protect it? Against what and Whom? I don't think they needed to protect the garden against pests or outside enemies. A paradise garden does not feature harmful insects, thistles or thorns, no weeds either.
Alter, did you read the real story about the creation of man? It's quiet different: Genesis 1:26-28:

Wishing you well, Kutte

God did not "advise" Adam and Eve to do anything. It was a command. You seem to think Gen 1:26-28 contradicts or is contradicted by something. The two references are complementary not contradictory. Where does scripture say there were no harmful insects, thistles, thorns, or weeds? Here is a link to a lengthy article refuting the "Gen 1 contradicts Gen 2 contradict each other." argument.

http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.php

DrBubbaLove · Jul 8, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi DrBubbasLove,

Yes, I understand why many people prefer the biblical account of man having been created in a beautiful paradise garden called Eden. It fits our more or less hidden desires for not having to work hard, no challenges to overcome, convenience, plenty of good food, free provision. It was perfectly alright for Adam and Eve to walk around naked, since the weather must haven been a constant balmy 75 degrees with no cold or heat to worry about. No thunderstorms too. The only thing they were told to do was to name all the animals. The tragedy about all of this is that they were ordered not to gain any awareness of the good things Eden was offering them.

You see, DrBubbaLove, Eden is not only a fake but a clever trap, planted in Genesis on purpose. It has no incentives for creativity to offer because everything was supposedly already perfect. True happiness can be achieved right here and now by climbing a mountain, by experiencing sweat, troubles and pain. Once now you reach the top you will realize what true happiness is all about.

Kutte

LOL, am not sure where such thoughts come from and certainly without reading the articles I linked a while back, this reply suggests again a cluelessness of where I am coming from.

Since you brought up the scripture, apparently to smear it, Adam is actually depicted naming the all the animals alone, before Eve is created. And since he was created to share in God's Eternal Happiness, he was for that purpose (and of necessity) made immortal (also the reason for the decreasing longevity depicted after the fall).
So how "long" that took to name everything is irrelevant. And as also noted before and in more detail in the articles I linked, when Eve is created Adam demonstrates a wisdom and awareness, with a proclamation no doubt stemming from his observations while naming all the creatures. His proclamation alone contradicts your not just unorthodox, but rather anti-Christian assessment of that passage.

Kutte · Jul 9, 2015

Der Alter said:
God did not "advise" Adam and Eve to do anything. It was a command. You seem to think Gen 1:26-28 contradicts or is contradicted by something. The two references are complementary not contradictory. Where does scripture say there were no harmful insects, thistles, thorns, or weeds? Here is a link to a lengthy article refuting the "Gen 1 contradicts Gen 2 contradict each other." argument.

http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.php

Hi

DrBubbaLove said:
LOL, am not sure where such thoughts come from and certainly without reading the articles I linked a while back, this reply suggests again a cluelessness of where I am coming from.

Since you brought up the scripture, apparently to smear it, Adam is actually depicted naming the all the animals alone, before Eve is created. And since he was created to share in God's Eternal Happiness, he was for that purpose (and of necessity) made immortal (also the reason for the decreasing longevity depicted after the fall).
So how "long" that took to name everything is irrelevant. And as also noted before and in more detail in the articles I linked, when Eve is created Adam demonstrates a wisdom and awareness, with a proclamation no doubt stemming from his observations while naming all the creatures. His proclamation alone contradicts your not just unorthodox, but rather anti-Christian assessment of that passage.

Hi DrBubbalove,

What difference does it make if only Adam was depicted to name all the animals with or without Eve? It certainly is not a job requiring much effort. Adam demonstrating wisdom and awareness while being ignorant of good and bad? Even ants have limited knowledge of good and bad. It is not my intention as a free thinking Christian Theist to smear certain beliefs, but just to set the record straight.
Tell me more about your views on this proclamation.

Kutte

Kutte · Jul 9, 2015

Der Alter said:
God did not "advise" Adam and Eve to do anything. It was a command. You seem to think Gen 1:26-28 contradicts or is contradicted by something. The two references are complementary not contradictory. Where does scripture say there were no harmful insects, thistles, thorns, or weeds? Here is a link to a lengthy article refuting the "Gen 1 contradicts Gen 2 contradict each other." argument.

http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.php

Hi Der Alter,

Appreciate your thoughts. I don't see it your way Alter. Both creation stories contradict themselves quiet a bit. Whereas the first one tells us that God created man to subdue planet earth, the second one limits itself to a paradise garden in which everything is perfect leaving little room for incentives to be creative. Besides having no knowledge of good and bad Adam and Eve had no appreciation of their environment whatsoever.
I realize that it takes lengthy articles while attempting to refute both creation stories of man. But it really doesn't take a genius to see what we really have here.

Kutte

Der Alte · Jul 9, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi Der Alter,
Appreciate your thoughts. I don't see it your way Alter. Both creation stories contradict themselves quiet a bit. Whereas the first one tells us that God created man to subdue planet earth, the second one limits itself to a paradise garden in which everything is perfect leaving little room for incentives to be creative.

Saying they contradict does not prove it. I see nothing in the second chapter that limits anything.

Besides having no knowledge of good and bad Adam and Eve had no appreciation of their environment whatsoever.

Non sequitur. Not knowing good from evil would not prevent A&E from enjoying what they had.

I realize that it takes lengthy articles while attempting to refute both creation stories of man. But it really doesn't take a genius to see what we really have here.

Kutte

Yes it does take lengthy articles to refute all of the various arguments made by opponents of the Bible. Feel free to try to refute the article, James Patrick Holding, the owner of the website welcomes people who try to prove him wrong.

DrBubbaLove · Jul 10, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi

Hi DrBubbalove,

What difference does it make if only Adam was depicted to name all the animals with or without Eve? It certainly is not a job requiring much effort. Adam demonstrating wisdom and awareness while being ignorant of good and bad? Even ants have limited knowledge of good and bad. It is not my intention as a free thinking Christian Theist to smear certain beliefs, but just to set the record straight.
Tell me more about your views on this proclamation.

Kutte

The difference goes to refuting that Adam was a dumb brute. Looking back I think I got side-tracked with me focused on that aspect of one of your replies - perhaps misunderstanding. The exclamation (about Eve) you would like me to go on about simply shows he was paying attention while naming the animals and knew something was missing for Him - incomplete - but let's turn this back to your point about the tree.
I will copy another section for the previously linked article here; again from http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin

It is important to note here that the tree really is genuinely good. Eve had a perfectly ordered and rational human soul which found evil totally repugnant and unappealing. The temptation was to seek an objective good for disordered reasons, which is what happened. The temptation changes the way Eve perceived the forbidden fruit: She no longer sees its goodness in an ordered and disinterested way, but in a way that foreshadows the threefold concupiscence: The fruit is desirable to the flesh, it holds a sort of worldly glamour, and it appeals to pride.

It is interesting to note that there is no tree of death or tree of evil within the garden, only the tree of the possibility of evil. When Adam and Eve eat they interiorize that potential and make it real. This creates a new relationship between man and Creation. Suddenly, all of the things that were “good” in the beginning have potential for evil. That makes the image of a tree particularly apt because of the countless branches of knowledge which in our fallen condition represent a genuine danger:

Spiritual knowledge may now be used for sorcery.
Scientific knowledge may be used to exploit and
destroy.
Moral knowledge may be used to censure and condemn.
Aesthetic knowledge may be used to make evil look
attractive.

Every field of human endeavor is poisoned because humanity now knows not only how to use knowledge for the greater glory of God, but also how to use it in disordered and damaging ways

Addresses the point far better than I could. The "knowledge" gained from "eating the forbidden fruit" is not the ability to tell right from wrong, but rather knowing we can use our intellect to willfully use what was created Very Good to willfully do evil. The action of first parents took what was only the potential for evil (everything was Very Good) and made evil a reality. That reality is part of what is labeled the Fall and why what was Very Good becomes corrupted. A corruption the Bible then depicts as a long history of God's plan to restore everything (creation) to the former Glory, as it was before the Fall.

Kutte · Jul 10, 2015

Der Alter said:
Saying they contradict does not prove it. I see nothing in the second chapter that limits anything.

Non sequitur. Not knowing good from evil would not prevent A&E from enjoying what they had.

Yes it does take lengthy articles to refute all of the various arguments made by opponents of the Bible. Feel free to try to refute the article, James Patrick Holding, the owner of the website welcomes people who try to prove him wrong.

Hi Alter,

> The second chapter limits Adam and Eve from knowledge of good and bad, right and wrong, essential qualities needed for cultivating a garden.

> Having no awareness of what is good limits their appreciation for a paradise garden, merely taking it for granted. One can not appreciate anything good if it cannot be compared to something bad.

> It should not require mountains of writings in an attempt to prove something which is obviously wrong to be right.

Kutte

Kutte · Jul 10, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
The difference goes to refuting that Adam was a dumb brute. Looking back I think I got side-tracked with me focused on that aspect of one of your replies - perhaps misunderstanding. The exclamation (about Eve) you would like me to go on about simply shows he was paying attention while naming the animals and knew something was missing for Him - incomplete - but let's turn this back to your point about the tree.
I will copy another section for the previously linked article here; again from http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin

It is important to note here that the tree really is genuinely good. Eve had a perfectly ordered and rational human soul which found evil totally repugnant and unappealing. The temptation was to seek an objective good for disordered reasons, which is what happened. The temptation changes the way Eve perceived the forbidden fruit: She no longer sees its goodness in an ordered and disinterested way, but in a way that foreshadows the threefold concupiscence: The fruit is desirable to the flesh, it holds a sort of worldly glamour, and it appeals to pride.

It is interesting to note that there is no tree of death or tree of evil within the garden, only the tree of the possibility of evil. When Adam and Eve eat they interiorize that potential and make it real. This creates a new relationship between man and Creation. Suddenly, all of the things that were “good” in the beginning have potential for evil. That makes the image of a tree particularly apt because of the countless branches of knowledge which in our fallen condition represent a genuine danger:

Spiritual knowledge may now be used for sorcery.

Scientific knowledge may be used to exploit and
destroy.

Moral knowledge may be used to censure and condemn.

Aesthetic knowledge may be used to make evil look
attractive.

Every field of human endeavor is poisoned because humanity now knows not only how to use knowledge for the greater glory of God, but also how to use it in disordered and damaging ways

Addresses the point far better than I could. The "knowledge" gained from "eating the forbidden fruit" is not the ability to tell right from wrong, but rather knowing we can use our intellect to willfully use what was created Very Good to willfully do evil. The action of first parents took what was only the potential for evil (everything was Very Good) and made evil a reality. That reality is part of what is labeled the Fall and why what was Very Good becomes corrupted. A corruption the Bible then depicts as a long history of God's plan to restore everything (creation) to the former Glory, as it was before the Fall.

Dear DrBubbaLove,

Still trying to prove something wrong to by right? The only tree of importance in the Garden of Eden is the tree of knowledge of good and bad. As long as our folks therein, Adam and Eve, were unaware of what is right and wrong, good and bad, they did not represent a likeness of God as is being reported in Genesis 1:26-27. They cannot even be compared to Jesus Christ who was aware of good and bad. So, what do we have here? An imperfect naked couple in a paradise garden.

Also, don't you think it is about time to depart from some ancient beliefs that God created Adam instantly out of dust then taking one of his ribs to form Eve, thereby lowering Himself to the level of witches?
Do you know that Christianity is in decline in America, church attendance dropping? In order to save Christianity reforms are needed among them the realization that Eden is a fake, that Jesus Christ was not God to die on a cross, but God's messenger to tell us about the Kingdom of God.

Kutte

Der Alte · Jul 10, 2015

Kutte said:
Hi Alter,

> The second chapter limits Adam and Eve from knowledge of good and bad, right and wrong, essential qualities needed for cultivating a garden.

> Having no awareness of what is good limits their appreciation for a paradise garden, merely taking it for granted. One can not appreciate anything good if it cannot be compared to something bad.

> It should not require mountains of writings in an attempt to prove something which is obviously wrong to be right.

Kutte

Obviously wrong as usual. I wonder if God created the animals with the inherent knowledge which plants/animals were suitable for food and which ones were not? Which places were safe and which were not? And so forth. If not, many species would have died out immediately, eating the wrong things, going into dangerous places, etc. Since God, at least the one I serve, is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient and certainly knew enough to provide all His creatures with all the knowledge they needed to survive. The animals are proof of that. Did you ever notice that animals instinctively know how to nurse. Newly hatched birds will instinctively not soil their nest but will stick their behinds outside the nest.

What you are characterizing as "mountains of writings" are not to prove the historical view right but to show those who attack the Bible that they are wrong. There are no, zero, none contradictions or errors in the creation account as written in Gen 1 and 2.

Der Alte · Jul 10, 2015

Kutte said:
Dear DrBubbaLove,

Still trying to prove something wrong to by right? The only tree of importance in the Garden of Eden is the tree of knowledge of good and bad. As long as our folks therein, Adam and Eve, were unaware of what is right and wrong, good and bad, they did not represent a likeness of God as is being reported in Genesis 1:26-27. They cannot even be compared to Jesus Christ who was aware of good and bad. So, what do we have here? An imperfect naked couple in a paradise garden.

Also, don't you think it is about time to depart from some ancient beliefs that God created Adam instantly out of dust then taking one of his ribs to form Eve, thereby lowering Himself to the level of witches?
Do you know that Christianity is in decline in America, church attendance dropping? In order to save Christianity reforms are needed among them the realization that Eden is a fake, that Jesus Christ was not God to die on a cross, but God's messenger to tell us about the Kingdom of God.

Kutte

Where do you get your "statistics?"

μνησθῆναι τῶν προειρημένων ῥημάτων ὑπὸ τῶν ἁγίων προφητῶν καὶ τῆς τῶν ἀποστόλων ὑμῶν ἐντολῆς τοῦ κυρίου καὶ σωτῆρος·
τοῦτο πρῶτον γινώσκοντες, ὅτι ἐλεύσονται ἐπ' ἐσχάτων τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐν ἐμπαιγμονῇ ἐμπαῖκται κατὰ τὰς ἰδίας ἐπιθυμίας αὐτῶν πορευόμενοι

An Article I Found Validating Christ's Deity

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Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

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Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Regular Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Regular Member

Regular Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Regular Member

Regular Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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