Discussion Hunger and thirst for righteousness!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

JustHisKid said:
I disagree. I can be kind and loving to people and still desire God's judgement on the wicked earth.

I think that you would be disagreeing with God in this. The scripture says that God desires mercy and not judgment, and that He is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. Also John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that He sent His son, etc; and that even while we were yet sinners, Jesus loved us and gave Himself for us.

You need to remember that before you accepted Christ, you were part of the wicked, perverse, crooked world, and that the religious (contrasted with genuine Christian) folks desiring judgment would want you, as part of the world, to be severely judged as well. Remember the two disciples that wanted fire to come down from heaven on the villages that rejected Jesus? Jesus told that they did not know what spirit they were of.

Because you are desiring judgment on this wicked world, do you really know what spirit you are of? I don't think that The Holy Spirit inspired you that way, because He has the nature of Christ. He loves the people in the world and is working as hard as He can to get people saved. This is because He of all people, knows how outrageous, overwhelming, marvellous and brilliant the goodness of God really is, and it sharing that goodness that will lead people to repentance.

if God had your attitude of judgment on wicked people, none of us would have been saved. Remember the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven of an overwhelming debt by his master, and then went and had a fellow-servant thrown into prison over a much smaller debt. As long as you have this desire for judgment on the world, then you will remain unmotivated to go out and seek the lost for Christ, and therefore be ignoring the great Commission - to go into all the world and make disciples for Christ.

JustHisKid · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
I think that you would be disagreeing with God in this. The scripture says that God desires mercy and not judgment, and that He is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. Also John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that He sent His son, etc; and that even while we were yet sinners, Jesus loved us and gave Himself for us.

You need to remember that before you accepted Christ, you were part of the wicked, perverse, crooked world, and that the religious (contrasted with genuine Christian) folks desiring judgment would want you, as part of the world, to be severely judged as well. Remember the two disciples that wanted fire to come down from heaven on the villages that rejected Jesus? Jesus told that they did not know what spirit they were of.

Because you are desiring judgment on this wicked world, do you really know what spirit you are of? I don't think that The Holy Spirit inspired you that way, because He has the nature of Christ. He loves the people in the world and is working as hard as He can to get people saved. This is because He of all people, knows how outrageous, overwhelming, marvellous and brilliant the goodness of God really is, and it sharing that goodness that will lead people to repentance.

if God had your attitude of judgment on wicked people, none of us would have been saved. Remember the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven of an overwhelming debt by his master, and then went and had a fellow-servant thrown into prison over a much smaller debt. As long as you have this desire for judgment on the world, then you will remain unmotivated to go out and seek the lost for Christ, and therefore be ignoring the great Commission - to go into all the world and make disciples for Christ.

I am deeply grieved by the wickedness of this world perpetrated by world leaders who serve satan. I have no hope this worldly system will ever be Godly.

outsidethecamp · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
You are confusing Justification with Sanctification. Justification by faith is where we are completely cleansed and purified by having our sins nailed to cross of Christ and us receiving the righteousness of Christ. Progressive sanctification is us growing in grace and in the knowledge of God enabling us, through the power of the Holy Spirit to transform our conduct from that of the world, to conform to the nature of Christ.

I do understand Justification. But, I believe there is a growth in righteousness, too (sanctification).

Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view, one sees righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain Gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accommodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Let me say that again: Does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ?

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

Here is a question for you: Was Jesus' obedience to His Father a product of love or legalism?

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gideons300 · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
I have fellowship with my wife. I don't think about the depth of it. If I really love my wife then I will enjoy being with her and share my life with its dream and ambitions, and will do all I can to make her life with me meaningful and enjoyable as well.

If I happened to say to my wife, "I am not sure I love you enough to have good, enjoyable fellowship with you", she would probably divorce me!

I think if we really love God, we would just enjoy living in His presence and in the light of His countenance, and not worry about whether it is deep enough After all, it is the role of The Holy Spirit within us to reveal the deep things of God to us to enable us to greatly appreciate who He is and what He is to us.

Yes, but if you cheated on her, or leered at other women or were a inappropriate content addict, I suspect it would be a blanket and a pillow on a fold out sofa for a week weeks.

What breaks fellowship with God? Sin. Doing what we want rather than what He commands us. Loving the world and its baubles when He has told us not to love the world, neither the things in the world. Unbelief.

The recipe for a floundering marriage or even divorce is to neglect your love for her, to take her for granted. Yet how many believers are cheating on God with willful sin, pr worldly lives, or lack of desire for real intimacy with Him. We are told that it is the will of God that we know how to possess our vessels in righteousness and honor. Amen? Yet for many, this is not even in the top tem of goals for our lives. We figure we can go to church, shed a few tears when the music is REAL good, and be "good", whatever that means, and the righteousness He gave us is all we need. But we are called to grow in grace, and live lives that honor Him in our devotion and lifestyle.

I fear that many will be like the man who was given a talent of gold, and made no gain with it. Can we "grow in righteousness"? No. As you have said, we cannot be any more righteous than Christ has made us. But can we "grow" in righteousness? Should we not set our hearts to seek the face of God and beseech Him to change us because we want to glorify the amazing God we serve? Should it not cut us to our hearts that even after years of being followers of the Lord, our lives more often than not do not convince others that we are truly following Him, or even wanting to be different? It should. It doesn't.

If we are the elect, if heaven is truly our destination, all that is about to change. That might confuse us now. It might scare us a bit. But what God has for us, what He is awakening us to, is so amazing, we will look back what we were once content with and be eternally grateful that He awakened us as to how to GROW in His righteousness.

But first we must be convicted of the wrongness of not wanting holy character, of living lives that draw near Him with lip service but are devoid of real fruits that will draw others to Him. It is called hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and right now, the church, especially in the west, is in great need of such a heart.

Blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · Jul 6, 2015

outsidethecamp said:
I do understand Justification. But, I believe there is a growth in righteousness, too (sanctification).

Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view, one sees righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain Gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accommodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Let me say that again: Does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ?

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

Here is a question for you: Was Jesus' obedience to His Father a product of love or legalism?

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Kudos on your wisdom. We have learned the first half of the gospel well. Christ can forgive us. But unbelief blocks the pathway to God taking possession of us and actually indwelling us...with the old us reckoned dead. God has promised us clearly that He will "cause us"(His exact words in Ezekiel 36 where He shares what the new covenant will do for us) to walk full obedience. Why have we not seen it happen that way? Simple. Our unbelief has robbed us of such a miracle. We simply do not believe it is possible. We believe the blood has the power to forgive us, but not cleanse us. As a result, the continued sins in our lives have hardened our hearts and there are many who walk now who have no desire at all to be holy, or desire to know how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor.

We have lost sight of the sureness of the promises of God and what they are meant to do for us and by what means they are to become reality to us. The answer is faith. God wants us, despite what we see in US, to look away from us and our weakness, and to look to Him and His strength. I love this verse given to us by Peter:

"..wherefore are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these (the promises), we might be partakers of the diving nature."

Partakers of the nature of God!! Is that not what our affections should be set on? Does this not call for our making it our treasure? Do we not see? As we defend our contentment without godly character imprinted on us by the master potter, whose goal is to change us into His likeness, He is pleading with us, trying to awaken us to the danger of staying where we are and to what He is offering us, overcoming natures.

I hope you post much more, dear brother.

Gideon

outsidethecamp · Jul 6, 2015

Gideons300 said:
Kudos on your wisdom. We have learned the first half of the gospel well. Christ can forgive us. But unbelief blocks the pathway to God taking possession of us and actually indwelling us...with the old us reckoned dead. God has promised us clearly that He will "cause us"(His exact words in Ezekiel 36 where He shares what the new covenant will do for us) to walk full obedience. Why have we not seen it happen that way? Simple. Our unbelief has robbed us of such a miracle. We simply do not believe it is possible. We believe the blood has the power to forgive us, but not cleanse us. As a result, the continued sins in our lives have hardened our hearts and there are many who walk now who have no desire at all to be holy, or desire to know how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor.

We have lost sight of the sureness of the promises of God and what they are meant to do for us and by what means they are to become reality to us. The answer is faith. God wants us, despite what we see in US, to look away from us and our weakness, and to look to Him and His strength. I love this verse given to us by Peter:

"..wherefore are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these (the promises), we might be partakers of the diving nature."

Partakers of the nature of God!! Is that not what our affections should be set on? Does this not call for our making it our treasure? Do we not see? As we defend our contentment without godly character imprinted on us by the master potter, whose goal is to change us into His likeness, He is pleading with us, trying to awaken us to the danger of staying where we are and to what He is offering us, overcoming natures.

I hope you post much more, dear brother.

Gideon

Praise the Lord, brother!

Yes, we are "partakers of the nature of God!"

I believe righteousness is the basic quality of God’s character and His character is to be formed in man.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. Psalm 11:7

The formation of His righteousness does not come instantaneously. For this reason Jesus said, 'But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.' Matt 6:33

Those of the kingdom should experience a daily 'hunger and thirst for righteousness', (Matt 5:6).

The satisfying of this hunger comes as we receive this righteousness into our lives. Righteousness must become our life.
If we seek His kingdom we must seek His righteousness, for the foundation of God’s kingdom is righteousness.

If we have faith to believe He can save us, we must have faith to believe He can also sanctify us. Abiding in Him and partaking of His nature, is the only way His righteousness will be formed in us.

God brought forth everything on a principle of separation establishing an order in creation that preserved all He made. Separation is the first principle of righteousness. On the first day of creation God brought forth the light that separated darkness from darkness and it was the first day. On the second day, God separated the waters from the waters and the earth appeared. And on each succeeding day in all that He made, life was separated from life in all its forms. This is righteousness coming through order.

There is order in righteousness that maintains life. Because God is righteous, the sun comes up every morning, the earth maintains its orbit around the sun, the clouds water the earth and the earth blossoms, men and women procreate and bring forth life. Because God is righteous, there are no monsters, no crossing over of life forms. Kind produces kind and all is good, just as it was when created. God set everything in its order, so life was established. This is righteousness.

Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all creation mixture was not found except for a tree called 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil,' which became the place of man’s fall. Evil comes through mixture. Here one finds the first principle of evil. The incorporation of evil is sin. It is the nature of sin to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one’s life are destroyed. The working of evil is always death.

It is mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. Evil can look good, but when evil comes in, it destroys all that righteousness has made. How many of God’s people are feeding upon mixture? The tree could be a book, a TV, a movie, a magazine, a philosophy or a relationship. The world today is full of mixture. It will excite the flesh but result in death for the soul.

Through mixture one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil; to experience evil, one loses the discernment of evil; and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome. Not following the first principle of righteousness allows evil to enter. A prophet pronounced judgment upon a nation because they had lost discernment.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20

God’s people must separate themselves from evil and draw the line between the clean and the unclean, between the holy and the profane. Fathers must teach their children to draw this line. The mixture of evil must be eliminated from the home and from the church. How much one allows the principle of separation to work in his life will determine how much God’s righteousness will work in his life.

Righteousness brings order and peace.

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
Isa 32:17-18

Here is God’s call to righteousness.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Co 6:14

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:16

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2Co 6:17

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2Co 6:18

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

JustHisKid said:
I am deeply grieved by the wickedness of this world perpetrated by world leaders who serve satan. I have no hope this worldly system will ever be Godly.

You are right! It will never be godly. That's why it is going to be all burned up when the Lord comes again. This is why we need to do all we can to get people out of it and into Christ before that happens.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

outsidethecamp said:
I do understand Justification. But, I believe there is a growth in righteousness, too (sanctification).

Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view, one sees righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain Gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accommodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Let me say that again: Does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ?

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

Here is a question for you: Was Jesus' obedience to His Father a product of love or legalism?

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I agree with you in principle. It is just that you need to use the word "righteousness" according to its proper meaning. The meaning of the word is to be right and acceptable in the sight of God. Our growth in grace is to do with the practice of righteousness. We are deemed righteous, and so we have an obligation to start living in the light of our righteousness. I fully agree that because we are deemed righteous by God, that we continue living as though we are not. Paul makes that point when he says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Paul was quite adamant that we don't continue in our sinful ways. If people did, he would doubt that they were truly converted to Christ.

I have been saying this all along, but I think that some readers are selectively reading according to their own religious prejudice. When I say that we are totally righteous is the sight of God, I certainly don't mean what you are trying to say I mean. We certainly have to show the fruits of our righteousness by practicing righteous conduct. It is not an either/or situation. It is both. We don't get righteousness by reforming ourselves. That is self-righteousness through the Law in whatever form people choose to have. We do righteousness because we are deemed righteous by God Himself. There is a big difference.

JustHisKid · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
You are right! It will never be godly. That's why it is going to be all burned up when the Lord comes again. This is why we need to do all we can to get people out of it and into Christ before that happens.

Sure, we can tell people about Jesus, but ultimately it is God who calls people to Himself.

Gideons300 · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
I agree with you in principle. It is just that you need to use the word "righteousness" according to its proper meaning. The meaning of the word is to be right and acceptable in the sight of God. Our growth in grace is to do with the practice of righteousness. We are deemed righteous, and so we have an obligation to start living in the light of our righteousness. I fully agree that because we are deemed righteous by God, that we continue living as though we are not. Paul makes that point when he says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Paul was quite adamant that we don't continue in our sinful ways. If people did, he would doubt that they were truly converted to Christ.

I have been saying this all along, but I think that some readers are selectively reading according to their own religious prejudice. When I say that we are totally righteous is the sight of God, I certainly don't mean what you are trying to say I mean. We certainly have to show the fruits of our righteousness by practicing righteous conduct. It is not an either/or situation. It is both. We don't get righteousness by reforming ourselves. That is self-righteousness through the Law in whatever form people choose to have. We do righteousness because we are deemed righteous by God Himself. There is a big difference.

Oscar, I am well aware that you do not mean we are given licenses to sin. Yet, I am sure you must admit that many believers have settled for the low ground and with their pardons in hand, they see no need at all to cooperate with God in seeing their external actions begin to line up with His internal intentions for us. Why is this? We see no hope of every truly having pure hearts, of really overcoming sin, of walking as true living sacrifices, and so, they reason, why go all crazy trying to be something I am not.

What God has shown me is that it is unbelief, pure and simple, that hinders us. We simply see no way that God can take a sinful man and change him from worm to butterfly. And why should we? Such faith is not taught, nor even sought. No examples are there to testify that God has delivered them from the flesh, and our own struggles shout a hearty "AMEN" to that.

Where have we gone wrong? We have believed historically that when Jesus died, we died with Him. We believe it true that when Jesus rose from the dead, so did we arise to newness of life. But it is but a fact in our heads we agree with, not a weapon we can use to fight satan off our backs when he attacks us with temptations. Our swords and shields are encased in glass boxes, admired by all, but seldom used. It is time we broke the glass and used that truth as our means to get free from the arrows of the enemy. Do we believe that we have truly new natures that can and will choose the right and eschew the evil, when a choice is made? Are we now yielding ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead? Or, are we yielding ourselves to God as poor sinners, saved by grace, who will sin again tomorrow....and the next? Or worse yet, are we even yielding ourselves to God at all, or content to go to church, keep our sins to "understandable and socially acceptable ones" and just walk out our lives as if they are our own, and give our God no opportunity to let the master potter re-create us?

If the truth has not yet become our testimony, overcoming will simply be impossible. The amazing news of the gospel is that God will take a worldly sinner, wash him in the blood, and then transform him to the point he is unrecognizable to even himself. He asks that we do no work. NONE. He does ask however for us to do two things, and in these last days, we who love the Lord will awaken to them.... yield and believe.

We cannot do the second until we do the first andn we will not do the first until we hate the continued actions of the old us....our selfishness, our love for specific sins that we know are wrong but pleasing to the flesh,and deep at the core, the desire to still rule over our lives. When a man or woman finally tries to"cooperate with God" as you put it, and something always seems to stop it and resist, it is only then, when we have determined to resist unto blood striving against sin.... and failed... that we are open to the next amazing step...faith... calling those things that are not as though they were.

Incredibly, once we fully yield, both our badness AND our goodness, and all our pearls are sold to possess the pearl of great price, we will find it easier to believe that we no longer live and it is Christ who lives in us. Desperation has a part in all this. It is when we finally realize that no matter how much we try to cooperate, we fail anyway, we see there MUST be another path we have missed if we really can become holy children. When we finally arrive at having NO strength, and yet long to be made holy, kept from falling into sin, resisting every temptation thrown at us by the enemy, quenching every arrow cast at us by satan, it is then God will breathe on our faith and make it come alive and give us what we long for....new natures that really do obey.

I cannot stress enough. We cannot sidestep this. Unless a man hates his life, he cannot be the disciple of the Lord. He who willingly loses it (because he finally sees it worthy of loss) WILL find it unto eternal life. This is the valley of decision laid out before us. The choice is laid before each one of us. Who will we let reign over us. Who will be our Lord? Him..... or us?

It is no easy choice for self fights it with an intense hatred. It wants to remain around, but alas, it cannot. We must put it off...by faith.... for to try to tie it up, or crucify it by our intense efforts will end up leaving us either broken, or Pharisees. I pray we go for the being broken.

Blessings to you, dear brother

Gids

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

JustHisKid said:
Sure, we can tell people about Jesus, but ultimately it is God who calls people to Himself.

"How will they hear without a preacher?"

outsidethecamp · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
I agree with you in principle. It is just that you need to use the word "righteousness" according to its proper meaning. The meaning of the word is to be right and acceptable in the sight of God. Our growth in grace is to do with the practice of righteousness. We are deemed righteous, and so we have an obligation to start living in the light of our righteousness. I fully agree that because we are deemed righteous by God, that we continue living as though we are not. Paul makes that point when he says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Paul was quite adamant that we don't continue in our sinful ways. If people did, he would doubt that they were truly converted to Christ.

I have been saying this all along, but I think that some readers are selectively reading according to their own religious prejudice. When I say that we are totally righteous is the sight of God, I certainly don't mean what you are trying to say I mean. We certainly have to show the fruits of our righteousness by practicing righteous conduct. It is not an either/or situation. It is both. We don't get righteousness by reforming ourselves. That is self-righteousness through the Law in whatever form people choose to have. We do righteousness because we are deemed righteous by God Himself. There is a big difference.

I know what you mean and I think you know what I mean. I know what justified means, and I am using righteousness, correctly if you would just stay with me a little while longer. Righteousness is not just the state of being right with God, but righteousness is what God is. The essence of righteousness is the character of God.

Let's explore what this means to us as a Believer.

Man can only be righteous and behave righteously as the Righteous character of God is present within and manifested through man. We are incapable of producing righteousness (when you understand that true righteousness is the character of God). Of course, man keeps trying to set up his own standards of righteousness. Back in the Garden of Eden, man was tempted to become his own center of reference - whatever he determined to be righteous will be righteous. We call that morality and ethics, today.

This quote from Jacques Ellul makes my point about morality:

"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)

Satan brings in his mixture and creates a counterfeit righteousness which is the social consensus of what the majority think is right. His counterfeit righteousness from his perverted character is manifested in religious rules such as legalism, correct procedures and proper techniques. Religious righteousness = performance righteousness and performance righteousness results in self-righteousness which is unrighteousness which is Satan's nature. We started off with religious performance and came full circle to the nature and character of Satan.

We are accountable to God to allow for the expression of His character of righteousness through us.

Being justified is one thing, walking in righteousness is quite another. Righteousness is not based on our performance or aligning our minds with a theological doctrine. We cannot self-generate righteousness. And, let's be clear, righteousness is not a commodity that Christ give us, righteousness is a Person, it is Christ Himself, not a theological construct. Righteous behavior is based on Christ's performance and His works within us. "Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Php 1:11)

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

If someone wants to hunger and thirst for righteousness then they will be hungering and thirsting for Jesus Christ who alone is RIGHTEOUSNESS and can satisfy our hunger and quench our thirst (Bread of Life and the Living Water).
Our role is to bring our mind and will and emotions (soul) into agreement with the Word and the Spirit and allow Christ to work in us to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

We are to abide in Christ, embracing the Cross so that we can bring our wills into harmony with His will and then Galatians 2:20 is realized.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The cross is onerous to the flesh, especially the religious flesh which concocts various doctrines and traditions which do not lead one to godliness and holiness. I am sure you will agree that there are many "Christian" doctrines today that do not lead people to godliness.

So, for the one that hungers and thirsts for righteousness: Bring your mind and will and emotions (submit your whole being to the Lord) into agreement with the Spirit and the Word and you will experience the Righteous One in your life. YOU SHALL BE FILLED WITH HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

Gideons300 said:
Oscar, I am well aware that you do not mean we are given licenses to sin. Yet, I am sure you must admit that many believers have settled for the low ground and with their pardons in hand, they see no need at all to cooperate with God in seeing their external actions begin to line up with His internal intentions for us. Why is this? We see no hope of every truly having pure hearts, of really overcoming sin, of walking as true living sacrifices, and so, they reason, why go all crazy trying to be something I am not.

What God has shown me is that it is unbelief, pure and simple, that hinders us. We simply see no way that God can take a sinful man and change him from worm to butterfly. And why should we? Such faith is not taught, nor even sought. No examples are there to testify that God has delivered them from the flesh, and our own struggles shout a hearty "AMEN" to that.

Where have we gone wrong? We have believed historically that when Jesus died, we died with Him. We believe it true that when Jesus rose from the dead, so did we arise to newness of life. But it is but a fact in our heads we agree with, not a weapon we can use to fight satan off our backs when he attacks us with temptations. Our swords and shields are encased in glass boxes, admired by all, but seldom used. It is time we broke the glass and used that truth as our means to get free from the arrows of the enemy. Do we believe that we have truly new natures that can and will choose the right and eschew the evil, when a choice is made? Are we now yielding ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead? Or, are we yielding ourselves to God as poor sinners, saved by grace, who will sin again tomorrow....and the next? Or worse yet, are we even yielding ourselves to God at all, or content to go to church, keep our sins to "understandable and socially acceptable ones" and just walk out our lives as if they are our own, and give our God no opportunity to let the master potter re-create us?

If the truth has not yet become our testimony, overcoming will simply be impossible. The amazing news of the gospel is that God will take a worldly sinner, wash him in the blood, and then transform him to the point he is unrecognizable to even himself. He asks that we do no work. NONE. He does ask however for us to do two things, and in these last days, we who love the Lord will awaken to them.... yield and believe.

We cannot do the second until we do the first andn we will not do the first until we hate the continued actions of the old us....our selfishness, our love for specific sins that we know are wrong but pleasing to the flesh,and deep at the core, the desire to still rule over our lives. When a man or woman finally tries to"cooperate with God" as you put it, and something always seems to stop it and resist, it is only then, when we have determined to resist unto blood striving against sin.... and failed... that we are open to the next amazing step...faith... calling those things that are not as though they were.

Incredibly, once we fully yield, both our badness AND our goodness, and all our pearls are sold to possess the pearl of great price, we will find it easier to believe that we no longer live and it is Christ who lives in us. Desperation has a part in all this. It is when we finally realize that no matter how much we try to cooperate, we fail anyway, we see there MUST be another path we have missed if we really can become holy children. When we finally arrive at having NO strength, and yet long to be made holy, kept from falling into sin, resisting every temptation thrown at us by the enemy, quenching every arrow cast at us by satan, it is then God will breathe on our faith and make it come alive and give us what we long for....new natures that really do obey.

I cannot stress enough. We cannot sidestep this. Unless a man hates his life, he cannot be the disciple of the Lord. He who willingly loses it (because he finally sees it worthy of loss) WILL find it unto eternal life. This is the valley of decision laid out before us. The choice is laid before each one of us. Who will we let reign over us. Who will be our Lord? Him..... or us?

It is no easy choice for self fights it with an intense hatred. It wants to remain around, but alas, it cannot. We must put it off...by faith.... for to try to tie it up, or crucify it by our intense efforts will end up leaving us either broken, or Pharisees. I pray we go for the being broken.

Blessings to you, dear brother

Gids

There is the story about the Lone Ranger and Tonto found themselves surrounded by hostile North American Indians. The Lone Ranger cries out, "We are surrounded Tonto!" Tonto replies, "Who's WE, paleface?"

We cannot rise above our confession about ourselves. If you are confessing your personal lack and failure to walk successfully with the Lord, then you will never rise above it. But if you make your confession according to what God's Word says that you are in Christ, then you will find that the Holy Spirit will work more powerfully in you to bring you to that place where you will achieve complete victory.

That's why I choose not to be included in your "we", because that is not my confession. My confession is not failure; it is that I more than a conqueror in Christ, seated with Him far above all principality and power, complete in Him.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

outsidethecamp said:
I know what you mean and I think you know what I mean. I know what justified means, and I am using righteousness, correctly if you would just stay with me a little while longer. Righteousness is not just the state of being right with God, but righteousness is what God is. The essence of righteousness is the character of God.

Let's explore what this means to us as a Believer.

Man can only be righteous and behave righteously as the Righteous character of God is present within and manifested through man. We are incapable of producing righteousness (when you understand that true righteousness is the character of God). Of course, man keeps trying to set up his own standards of righteousness. Back in the Garden of Eden, man was tempted to become his own center of reference - whatever he determined to be righteous will be righteous. We call that morality and ethics, today.

This quote from Jacques Ellul makes my point about morality:

"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)

Satan brings in his mixture and creates a counterfeit righteousness which is the social consensus of what the majority think is right. His counterfeit righteousness from his perverted character is manifested in religious rules such as legalism, correct procedures and proper techniques. Religious righteousness = performance righteousness and performance righteousness results in self-righteousness which is unrighteousness which is Satan's nature. We started off with religious performance and came full circle to the nature and character of Satan.

We are accountable to God to allow for the expression of His character of righteousness through us.

Being justified is one thing, walking in righteousness is quite another. Righteousness is not based on our performance or aligning our minds with a theological doctrine. We cannot self-generate righteousness. And, let's be clear, righteousness is not a commodity that Christ give us, righteousness is a Person, it is Christ Himself, not a theological construct. Righteous behavior is based on Christ's performance and His works within us. "Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Php 1:11)

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

If someone wants to hunger and thirst for righteousness then they will be hungering and thirsting for Jesus Christ who alone is RIGHTEOUSNESS and can satisfy our hunger and quench our thirst (Bread of Life and the Living Water).
Our role is to bring our mind and will and emotions (soul) into agreement with the Word and the Spirit and allow Christ to work in us to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

We are to abide in Christ, embracing the Cross so that we can bring our wills into harmony with His will and then Galatians 2:20 is realized.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The cross is onerous to the flesh, especially the religious flesh which concocts various doctrines and traditions which do not lead one to godliness and holiness. I am sure you will agree that there are many "Christian" doctrines today that do not lead people to godliness.

So, for the one that hungers and thirsts for righteousness: Bring your mind and will and emotions (submit your whole being to the Lord) into agreement with the Spirit and the Word and you will experience the Righteous One in your life. YOU SHALL BE FILLED WITH HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

You are still making righteousness the product of your own works instead of through faith in Christ. I say again and again and again - we behave righteously because God made us righteous the moment we were converted. You say it correctly when you say that it is based on Christ's performance and His works within us, and then you contradict yourself when you say it is based on what we do. So you seem to be mixing faith with works in order to achieve righteousness. I keep banging the same drum that God has declared us righteous. What you need to do is to go through the New Testament and to dig out the scriptures that clearly say that righteousness comes by faith, and that we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, not through what we have done, but through what Christ did for us on the cross. If we could achieve even small progress in righteousness of ourselves, Jesus would not have had to come and die for us and be our substitute. The scripture says that Jesus has become sin for that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ.

As I have repeatedly said, righteousness is a state of being right with God. It is not something progressive. We are either right with God or not. We are either righteous before God or we are still dead in our sins. We can't be both at the same time. The scripture says that all our own righteousness is as filthy rags, and that there is none (in themselves) righteous no, not one.

But, as James says: Faith without works is dead. He is not contradicting Paul here. He is not talking about being saved by works. But what he is saying is that if we say that we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, then what we do should reflect that. If we say that we are righteous through faith, then our works should follow our faith to show that our faith is actually alive.

outsidethecamp · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
You are still making righteousness the product of your own works instead of through faith in Christ. I say again and again and again - we behave righteously because God made us righteous the moment we were converted.

No, we behave righteous, because we derive our life moment by moment from Christ, by faith.

In your explanation there is no role for Christ except at the moment of salvation.

In my explanation, we must abide in Christ for His righteous behavior and character to manifest in and through us.

The part we play is to YIELD to HIM. You are calling that performance? Works?

In your explanation, after salvation, we no longer need Christ.

I disagree and evidently so does the Word.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Abiding is not a one time event.

Where is the ongoing ontological function of Christ within the Believer in your explanation?

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

outsidethecamp said:
No, we behave righteous, because we derive our life moment by moment from Christ, by faith.

In your explanation there is no role for Christ except at the moment of salvation.

In my explanation, we must abide in Christ for His righteous behavior and character to manifest in and through us.

The part we play is to YIELD to HIM. You are calling that performance? Works?

In your explanation, after salvation, we no longer need Christ.

I disagree and evidently so does the Word.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Abiding is not a one time event.

Where is the ongoing ontological function of Christ within the Believer in your explanation?

AAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! (He cried, reaching for the valium and the chocolate). You are mixing up different concepts and making them very holy by confusing the hell out of them! Now you are confusing the righteousness of Christ with abiding in Him!! Where did you get your theology from??? I won't suggest where because that might be violating the flaming rule!! But the vision of a Cornflakes packet drifts past my consciousness right now. :holy:

JustHisKid · Jul 6, 2015

Oscarr said:
"How will they hear without a preacher?"

Do you preach to everyone you meet or do you let the Spirit move you? You will know who needs to hear.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 6, 2015

JustHisKid said:
Do you preach to everyone you meet or do you let the Spirit move you? You will know who needs to hear.

I don't actually preach to people. But I am quite clear to them that I am a Christian and am very willing to talk about it if they want to. I was quoting a scripture where Paul is asking how people are going to know about the Gospel unless people tell them about it. Waiting for the Holy Spirit to move before doing anything is Quaker theology.

FireHeart · Jul 7, 2015

My hunger and thirst is never ending. when the scriptures say hungering and thirsting for righteousness I see it as saying hungering and thirsting for God the same as when it says seek first the kingdom of heaven to me this saying to seek his heart.

I am never satisfied never filled because I have a very greedy and hungry heart and love for him enough is never enough, but it is this hunger and this starvation that makes me seek him all the more that makes me chase him wherever he may go makes me seek him however I can and I know that in the end I will find him in the end his heart is going to be mine for I have already claimed it.

when i was still early in my faith God and I had a very special moment together that I will never forget. I sometimes lay in bed and just be with him and during this time he and I were pouring our love for each other into each others hearts and I saw suddenly his heart in my minds eye and I endearingly branded it with my name and with the words mine and the same time I saw him brand on my forehead the word mine.

JustHisKid · Jul 7, 2015

Oscarr said:
I don't actually preach to people. But I am quite clear to them that I am a Christian and am very willing to talk about it if they want to. I was quoting a scripture where Paul is asking how people are going to know about the Gospel unless people tell them about it. Waiting for the Holy Spirit to move before doing anything is Quaker theology.

I have no idea what quaker theology is, but it sounds like you do the same thing.

Discussion Hunger and thirst for righteousness!

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