The Trinity

razzelflabben

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The spirit and soul are not the same thing.
which is exactly what I have said many times over, however, the soul is eternal and separate from the body, which makes is spiritual in nature.
Every person has a soul; mind, will, intellect. Not all people have a spirit that is alive.
well, this is a two fold discussion. 1. If we go back to Gen. where God breathed into man the breath of life, that being spirit, then yes, all men have that life. At least all men that we call alive have that life. but....2. if we are looking at the spirit of man being the HS, then we are either alive in Christ or dead in our sins, but still spiritual beings. You see, dead does NOT mean to stop existing. When our son died, he didn't cease to exist, he just no longer lived in his fleshly body. Likewise, the dead in Christ don't cease to exist, their soul still has to go somewhere because it is spirit not flesh.
We are all born spiritually dead to God, separated from Him. One must be born again that their spirit may be made alive to God in Christ.
amen...but like I said, spiritually dead does NOT mean is ceases to exist, it means it is not functioning at it was intended to function.
 
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razzelflabben

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Of course the Spirit and soul are not the same thing, why do you think I said that? Never even suggested that. The top two comments are razzelflabben, the last one is mine. So how you got I said, Spirit and soul is the same from this “Man has a soul, but having a soul, does not make one spiritual” I have no idea; if anything, I would tend to lean more to that the person, was leaning more to they are not the same.

Adam was given the breath of life, and he became a living soul. Adam was not given a soul, he became a living soul. Everyone has the breath of life, whether they have received the promised Holy Spirit, or not, else their dead.

Spirit does not die (I am specifically referring to the breath of life here, not the promise of the Holy Spirit, which does not die either), it returns to God Who gave it; God does not receive dead things, God is living. You are spiritually dead, if your soul is not concerned with the things of God, not being filled with the Spirit, but that does not mean Spirit dies. Spirit is what gives life. The Spirit of God left Jesus while on the cross, but Jesus still had the breath of life, then Jesus gave up the ghost, which was the breath of life. The breath of life is not a person (though it is from God), it's his breath of life, His power, His Spirit, it's what gives life to a soul.

So, you have, the breath of life, and then you can receive the promised Spirit on top of that, which does make you a spiritual person. Everyone has to have the living breath of life, to have life. You can't have a dead Spirit (breath of life) and be living. There is no such a thing, as a dead Spirit of God, of any sort, there is no part of God that is dead. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, He is the living God, not the living...kinda...dead...sort of living God.
more and more clarity, you are confusing the soul that is alive with spirituality. The only way to make that jump is to deny eternal torment or hell, which is pretty clear in scripture....so, are you trying to argue for no hell? no eternal torment? If so, our premises are way different and to try to reconcile those premise would be off topic.
 
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stevenfrancis

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But what if Jesus was just God, not one person in a three-person God?
It just doesn't work. You then must explain the Father and Holy Spirit also being God. I don't want to burst anybody's bubble, but this stuff has been worked out for some 2,000 years now. It's difficult to understand what goal of e thread like this might be. A return to manacheism, or arianism or any number of 2nd and 3rd century christological heresies, which were ironed out by councils, dogmas, creeds, patristic writings, apostolic writings and so forth ages ago? Are they all new and fresh again? Why?

I'm sorry. I probably should get off this thread. If I've offended, I apologize.

God bless and keep you always,

Steve
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: I have been trying to figure out why you are being so argumentative and hard of hearing...I think I just figured it out...you are railing against the Christian religion.

First, I am not railing against the Christian religion, nor did I say all Christian religion was false, I said, “many Christian denomination are false.” I'm not against God's people that are of my family; those that are called have been given the right to become the sons of God, but not everyone will be saved; I'm hear to show we inherited lies from our fathers.

Razzelflabben said: No argument from me on that, not sure why you would chose to argue with me about it, but amen.

I did not choose you, you replied to my post #227, and here we are, you seemed to want to know more about me, as in what I believe, and I'm telling you, and now you don't want to know.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: What if it is you who are not listening to God? What if we are saying the same thing but just talking past one another? What if neither of us has it right, that both of us are missing God on this matter? See, there are lots of possibles

So Peter's and Paul's doctrine were just possibilities, they really did not know, or understand? We are not called to fellowship with them in truth? No one can really know the truth?

You can know the truth, you have to know the truth, because the truth sets us free, but the Father must first reveal the true Christ, then will the son reveal the Father. We must believe Jesus doctrine. Like, was Jesus lying when he said the Father is the ONLY true God? If he was not lying then why don't you believe him? I say, I believe him, when he says that, and you say, I'm false.

If you were to believe him then maybe, you could understand that passage in context; what Jesus meant when he said I AM, because he can't be the only true God, if the Father is the only true God. You can't be the image of God, if you are God. You can't be equal to God, if you are God. If I have five apples in my right hand, that are equal to the five apples in my lift, then the five in my right can't be the five in my left, else they would be the five in my left. It was prophesied in scripture that the church, after all the elders of the church died, another generation after them, would turn to other gods.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: Now, let me set you straight on something right now. I have been studying and seeking to know the true God not what the teachers have told me God is, or what I myself want to believe He is, for almost 50 years now. That doesn't make me any more right or wrong then the 35 years you talk about studying.

That is not why I mentioned 35 years, for the trinity has been around for a few thousand years. I mentioned it because you seemed to want to understand me more, what I believe, so I told you.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: wow, such judgment from someone who professes to have found enlightenment as to who God is? Scripture says that we will be known by your Love not by our judgment of others. So how about dropping the judgment and start talking to me, someone who has sought the Lord not the teachers and found something different then you did, and yet, we are called to come together and reason not judge one another... ..When did God give us permission to falsely judge others and call it good or righteous?


He did not give us permission to falsely judge, but to rightly judge. Actually he did say, when you have removed the plank from our own eye, then you can help your brother to see. As Peter judged rightly when he judged Ananias and Sapphira, or Simon.

We don't judge anyone on the outside, but anyone that claims to be a brother that is a sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, we are to judge rightly. So, I have not over stepped any authority.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: It absolutely does...it does Not make him spiritually alive, but it does make him a spiritual being.


And that was what we were talking about “it does Not make him spiritually alive”. Just because you received the breath of life, does not make you spiritually alive, in the context we were talking about, this is what I've been trying to tell you. You were the one that went out of the context, which we were speaking in. When we were talking about being able to live without sin. You brought in, that Adam was spiritual because he was created with a soul and spirit. In the context we were talking in, no it doesn't. You kept changing the context.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: Maybe this is the problem, you do not yet understand that to be spiritual does not mean one must be spiritually alive, one can also be spiritually dead


I do understand about being spiritually alive, and spiritually dead, but you are not understanding what I was saying. Again, I'll try this one more time, because I think you maybe ready to at least understand what I am trying to say, whether you believe what I'm saying, or not. Just because Adam received the breath of life and became a soul, does not mean he was spiritually alive, as we think of it today. The breath of life was a measure of the spirit for life, to give life, as even non-believers have.

Adam was created good, he was not created with the knowledge of good and evil. So, now I can finish what I was trying to say. When he ate from the tree, he now has the knowledge of good and evil, but not having the promise of the Spirit as we have today, he does not have much of a chance.

And, if having the Spirit, and walking in the truth, you can walk without sin. As the early church did, in the apostles times, but if someone worships the wrong God of the Bible, not walking in truth, as Paul said in Acts 17:29-30, and Romans 1, then God will debase them, because He is not overlooking it anymore. I don't believe much of the church really understands the power of God. God is not giving anyone understanding, if they don't worship Him in truth, in fact, He can take away understanding, if you start to turn from Him, or refuse to come closer to the truth.

Yet, many find it hard to walk without sin, found it so hard, that they came up with a new slogan. This is the slogan of today...

Jeremiah 7:8(KJV) Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. 9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; 10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name (mixing the true God with other gods), and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?)

Jeremiah 23:17(KJV) They say still (or continue to say) unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?).

Malachi 2:17(KJV) Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?)

One of the lies, is that most of the scriptures, and prophecy, was for Israel, and has nothing to do with the Church, or Gentiles, calling it the “Gap.” Then someone does not know the scriptures, because the Gentiles did inherit Israel in the Old Testament. Scripture tells us, whatsoever was written before was written for us.
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: I have been trying to figure out why you are being so argumentative and hard of hearing...I think I just figured it out...you are railing against the Christian religion.

First, I am not railing against the Christian religion, nor did I say all Christian religion was false, I said, “many Christian denomination are false.” I'm not against God's people that are of my family; those that are called have been given the right to become the sons of God, but not everyone will be saved; I'm hear to show we inherited lies from our fathers.
the same message we have been bringing for years but, here is the problem, I don't just assume someone has been listening to the lies of the fathers, I wait till they evidence such, something you would be wise to do also.
Razzelflabben said: No argument from me on that, not sure why you would chose to argue with me about it, but amen.

I did not choose you, you replied to my post #227, and here we are, you seemed to want to know more about me, as in what I believe, and I'm telling you, and now you don't want to know.
wow...okay, you refuse to listen to what I am saying, you try to accuse me of listening to the lies of my fathers, etc. and I am the one who has a problem because you refuse to speak plainly on the matter before us...okay then...moving on to someone willing to talk about the topic.
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: What if it is you who are not listening to God? What if we are saying the same thing but just talking past one another? What if neither of us has it right, that both of us are missing God on this matter? See, there are lots of possibles

So Peter's and Paul's doctrine were just possibilities, they really did not know, or understand? We are not called to fellowship with them in truth? No one can really know the truth?
what the holy heck are you talking about? Everything I said is straight out of scripture and I even provided a lot of passages to testify to that truth...now you falsely accuse me on not agreeing with Peter and Paul...how sad for you...with this kind of flaming, I am done, and you had such a wonderful opportunity to show what you think I have wrong and all you could do is falsely accuse me rather than listening to me for a moment...and yes, accusations like, 'you are listening to your teachers instead of God.' are inflammatory false accusations which are contrary to what God calls us to be and do.
You can know the truth, you have to know the truth, because the truth sets us free, but the Father must first reveal the true Christ, then will the son reveal the Father. We must believe Jesus doctrine. Like, was Jesus lying when he said the Father is the ONLY true God? If he was not lying then why don't you believe him? I say, I believe him, when he says that, and you say, I'm false.
I believe Him and I believe I am listening to the true God because the HS is evidenced in my life. You know, the HS that is our guarantee of salvation and a HS that insists I refrain from bearing false witness of others even on the forum and insists that flaming is NOT the Love that identifies the true believe.

Now, before you accuse me of more falsehoods, I am not saying you are not a believer or any number of other things you could manufacture out of what I just said. All I am saying is that God is evidenced Himself in my life and thus I have confidence that I am a true believer. You and God alone know what is in your heart and if you evidence that same HS apart from the poor behavior in some of these posts to me.
If you were to believe him then maybe, you could understand that passage in context; what Jesus meant when he said I AM, because he can't be the only true God, if the Father is the only true God. You can't be the image of God, if you are God. You can't be equal to God, if you are God. If I have five apples in my right hand, that are equal to the five apples in my lift, then the five in my right can't be the five in my left, else they would be the five in my left. It was prophesied in scripture that the church, after all the elders of the church died, another generation after them, would turn to other gods.
more inflammatory accusations, this time, that I am not a believer even though the HS is evidenced in my life. I will pray for you. As to the rest of this, you have shown yourself in these posts to be hard hearted and refusing to listen to anything, so I will ignore your insults and wait for someone willing to discuss the topic in Love.
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: Now, let me set you straight on something right now. I have been studying and seeking to know the true God not what the teachers have told me God is, or what I myself want to believe He is, for almost 50 years now. That doesn't make me any more right or wrong then the 35 years you talk about studying.

That is not why I mentioned 35 years, for the trinity has been around for a few thousand years. I mentioned it because you seemed to want to understand me more, what I believe, so I told you.
I asked you some specifics about what you are trying to teach and that somehow makes you think I want to know more about you personally...and you think I am not listening to you...geesh.
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: wow, such judgment from someone who professes to have found enlightenment as to who God is? Scripture says that we will be known by your Love not by our judgment of others. So how about dropping the judgment and start talking to me, someone who has sought the Lord not the teachers and found something different then you did, and yet, we are called to come together and reason not judge one another... ..When did God give us permission to falsely judge others and call it good or righteous?


He did not give us permission to falsely judge, but to rightly judge. Actually he did say, when you have removed the plank from our own eye, then you can help your brother to see. As Peter judged rightly when he judged Ananias and Sapphira, or Simon.

We don't judge anyone on the outside, but anyone that claims to be a brother that is a sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, we are to judge rightly. So, I have not over stepped any authority.
yet I can't even count the number of false accusations you have levied against me...like I said, time to wait for someone willing to discuss it in Love.
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: It absolutely does...it does Not make him spiritually alive, but it does make him a spiritual being.


And that was what we were talking about “it does Not make him spiritually alive”. Just because you received the breath of life, does not make you spiritually alive, in the context we were talking about, this is what I've been trying to tell you. You were the one that went out of the context, which we were speaking in. When we were talking about being able to live without sin. You brought in, that Adam was spiritual because he was created with a soul and spirit. In the context we were talking in, no it doesn't. You kept changing the context.
wow...dude, you need to step back and take a moment to think things through, I have been telling you for days and days that there is a difference between those that are spiritually alive and those that are spiritually dead...wow...unbelievable!!!!!! And as for Adam and Eve, you brought them into the discussion...wow, just wow!
 
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razzelflabben

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Razzelflabben said: Maybe this is the problem, you do not yet understand that to be spiritual does not mean one must be spiritually alive, one can also be spiritually dead


I do understand about being spiritually alive, and spiritually dead, but you are not understanding what I was saying.
which I offered as a possible many times over, that we were saying the same thing just talking past one another and you saw fit to reply with false accusations about my salvation, teaching, etc. etc. etc. Wow....just wow!!!!!
Again, I'll try this one more time, because I think you maybe ready to at least understand what I am trying to say, whether you believe what I'm saying, or not. Just because Adam received the breath of life and became a soul, does not mean he was spiritually alive, as we think of it today. The breath of life was a measure of the spirit for life, to give life, as even non-believers have.
I told you that repeatedly and you accused me of all kinds of nasty things...I think we have to be done until or unless you can apologize for your rudeness and inflammatory responses not to mention your lack of listening to me. If this inflammatory stuff continues, I might be forced to report them.
Adam was created good, he was not created with the knowledge of good and evil. So, now I can finish what I was trying to say. When he ate from the tree, he now has the knowledge of good and evil, but not having the promise of the Spirit as we have today, he does not have much of a chance.

And, if having the Spirit, and walking in the truth, you can walk without sin. As the early church did, in the apostles times, but if someone worships the wrong God of the Bible, not walking in truth, as Paul said in Acts 17:29-30, and Romans 1, then God will debase them, because He is not overlooking it anymore. I don't believe much of the church really understands the power of God. God is not giving anyone understanding, if they don't worship Him in truth, in fact, He can take away understanding, if you start to turn from Him, or refuse to come closer to the truth.

Yet, many find it hard to walk without sin, found it so hard, that they came up with a new slogan. This is the slogan of today...

Jeremiah 7:8(KJV) Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. 9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; 10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name (mixing the true God with other gods), and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?)

Jeremiah 23:17(KJV) They say still (or continue to say) unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?).

Malachi 2:17(KJV) Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? (is this not the teaching even to this day, Romans 1:32?)

One of the lies, is that most of the scriptures, and prophecy, was for Israel, and has nothing to do with the Church, or Gentiles, calling it the “Gap.” Then someone does not know the scriptures, because the Gentiles did inherit Israel in the Old Testament. Scripture tells us, whatsoever was written before was written for us.
your behavior in the past posts make all this meaningless as far as I am concerned, whether right or wrong is immaterial at this point, cause I don't find it wise to listen to people who judge so falsely as you do. In fact, scripture talks about not listening to those that claim a form of godliness but deny it's power.
 
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7xlightray

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Razzelflabben said: ...What if neither of us has it right, that both of us are missing God on this matter? See, there are lots of possibles

So Peter's and Paul's doctrine were just possibilities, they really did not know, or understand? We are not called to fellowship with them in truth? No one can really know the truth?
now you falsely accuse me on not agreeing with Peter and Paul.



Okay, I see your going to continue to twist my words, and set me up.

If you actually read what I said, and understood, you would notice, I did not say, you did not agree with Peter and Paul. You were suggesting, who can really know the truth, maybe we are both wrong. My point was, the early church did know the truth, so, obviously it is possible to know the truth.

That's all I have to say.
 
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razzelflabben

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Okay, I see your going to continue to twist my words, and set me up.

If you actually read what I said, and understood, you would notice, I did not say, you did not agree with Peter and Paul. You were suggesting, who can really know the truth, maybe we are both wrong. My point was, the early church did know the truth, so, obviously it is possible to know the truth.

That's all I have to say.
Like I said, we are done until you apologize, as I previously told you, they agreed because of the witness of the indwelling HS. Both of us claim that indwelling witness, therefore we either agree but don't realize it, or one or both of us is not being led by that HS. Which is exactly what Peter and Paul both teach...so again, your wrong and accuse me falsely.
 
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Jack Terrence

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What do you believe happens to mans soul, and spirit, when they die? Do they continue to live, or die?
They continue to live. Jesus said so. He quoted God saying, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Then Jesus said, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

The scripture says that the patriarchs "NOW desire a heavenly country" (Hebrews 11:16). The dead can't desire. Therefore, their souls were in a place where they were CONSCIOUSLY waiting for the heavenly country.
 
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7xlightray

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They continue to live. Jesus said so. He quoted God saying, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Then Jesus said, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

The scripture says that the patriarchs "NOW desire a heavenly country" (Hebrews 11:16). The dead can't desire. Therefore, their souls were in a place where they were CONSCIOUSLY waiting for the heavenly country.


Lets first look at that passage “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living,” and see if it offers any help to Hebrews.

Lets say, Jesus taught that the soul does not die. When he gave the statement “I am the God of Abraham...”, which is saying, God is the God of the living, not of the dead, as proof of a resurrection. The “I am” referring to “the God of the living,” and the “resurrection,” would become confusing, as is seen in...

[Luke 20:37-38 “But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised (this is referring to the resurrection), when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob (this would have to be referring to the resurrection) ’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”]

Did you notice that last statement, “for all live to Him.” God sees them as alive, not dead. Not that they really are alive but God sees them as alive, because they will inherit eternal life, and God knows those that are His.

If Jesus, by stating, God is the God of the living, was proof that these souls are alive, then how would that prove of a bodily resurrection. He only proved they are alive, but he still did not give proof of a bodily resurrection. So to prove there is a bodily resurrection, Jesus would have to be referring to the body, when he says God is the God of the living (as is clearly seen in Luke that this refers to the resurrection), because as we have said in our example, the soul is not resurrected, for it is already living. I hope you can see this passage doesn't make much sense then, if he is referring to the soul.

Then on top of that, it's in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, if it's not until the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, then what are their souls doing now, are they now in marriage, and given in marriage, it comes out with no real sense. All this takes place at the resurrection, this is when we receive eternal life. If I am a soul and spirit in heaven, or wherever it may be, but with no body, then that sounds like to me, I am just like an angel already, with eternal life, spirit and soul.

Should not this [25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven,] be the case the moment they die, not at the resurrection, if our soul is eternal?

So, if what I say is so, then what could Paul mean when he says they are now at the present longing for an heavenly? What could he mean by that, if what I am saying is true. Does it mean they are alive longing? [Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.] And if they are in heaven with God, why would they be longing for something else? In fact, if they are in heaven, then why are they longing for the heavenly sphere? And if they are not in heaven, yet the Spirit has returned to God, then how are they living?

[But now they desire (G3713) a better country, that is, an heavenly:]

Desire: (G3713 – oregontai - to stretch oneself out in order to touch or grasp something) – is in the Indicative : Mood, which means : The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood.

Sorry, gave the wrong passage, it should have been...
Like [Revelation 16:6 For they have shed (Indicative : Mood) the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given (Indicative : Mood) them blood to drink; for they are worthy.] Notice it does not say He will give; it says He hast given, where it is stated as fact, as if He has given, but at the time of writing had not yet happened.

God is the only one with immortality, and God is Spirit; soul is not Spirit, so to impart immortality to a soul, it would need the presence of the Spirit, who only has life. If you remove Spirit from soul, how can a soul posses life of it's own? One would be saying, life exists outside of God.

We can have the fullness of God's Spirit dwell in us, but we are not that Spirit, we are the soul. If we claim our souls posses life of it's own, outside of God, then we are saying we are God. The same if God removed His Spirit from the body, the body can't live without God's Spirit (breath of life). If we say our soul (the "Us") is Spirit then we are saying we are the God. There is nothing that is mine, even my soul is not mine. At the resurrection, my spiritual body, will give permanent life to my soul (the soul being the me).

1 Timothy 6:16 says only God has immortality, but angels have immortality, does that mean angels are God? Obviously not. What he means is only God possess it, He's the owner.
 
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razzelflabben

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Lets first look at that passage “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living,” and see if it offers any help to Hebrews.

Lets say, Jesus taught that the soul does not die. When he gave the statement “I am the God of Abraham...”, which is saying, God is the God of the living, not of the dead, as proof of a resurrection. The “I am” referring to “the God of the living,” and the “resurrection,” would become confusing, as is seen in...

[Luke 20:37-38 “But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised (this is referring to the resurrection), when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob (this would have to be referring to the resurrection) ’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”]

Did you notice that last statement, “for all live to Him.” God sees them as alive, not dead. Not that they really are alive but God sees them as alive, because they will inherit eternal life, and God knows those that are His.

If Jesus, by stating, God is the God of the living, was proof that these souls are alive, then how would that prove of a bodily resurrection. He only proved they are alive, but he still did not give proof of a bodily resurrection. So to prove there is a bodily resurrection, Jesus would have to be referring to the body, when he says God is the God of the living (as is clearly seen in Luke that this refers to the resurrection), because as we have said in our example, the soul is not resurrected, for it is already living. I hope you can see this passage doesn't make much sense then, if he is referring to the soul.

Then on top of that, it's in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, if it's not until the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, then what are their souls doing now, are they now in marriage, and given in marriage, it comes out with no real sense. All this takes place at the resurrection, this is when we receive eternal life. If I am a soul and spirit in heaven, or wherever it may be, but with no body, then that sounds like to me, I am just like an angel already, with eternal life, spirit and soul.

Should not this [25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven,] be the case the moment they die, not at the resurrection, if our soul is eternal?

So, if what I say is so, then what could Paul mean when he says they are now at the present longing for an heavenly? What could he mean by that, if what I am saying is true. Does it mean they are alive longing? [Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.] And if they are in heaven with God, why would they be longing for something else? In fact, if they are in heaven, then why are they longing for the heavenly sphere? And if they are not in heaven, yet the Spirit has returned to God, then how are they living?

[But now they desire (G3713) a better country, that is, an heavenly:]

Desire: (G3713 – oregontai - to stretch oneself out in order to touch or grasp something) – is in the Indicative : Mood, which means : The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood.

Like [Revelation 12:11 And they overcame (Indicative : Mood) him by the blood of the Lamb.] Notice it does not say they overcome him; it says they overcame him, where it is stated as fact, as if they have overcome him, but at the time of writing had not yet happened.

God is the only one with immortality, and God is Spirit; soul is not Spirit, so to impart immortality to a soul, it would need the presence of the Spirit, who only has life. If you remove Spirit from soul, how can a soul posses life of it's own? One would be saying, life exists outside of God.

We can have the fullness of God's Spirit dwell in us, but we are not that Spirit, we are the soul. If we claim our souls posses life of it's own, outside of God, then we are saying we are God. The same if God removed His Spirit from the body, the body can't live without God's Spirit (breath of life). If we say our soul (the "Us") is Spirit then we are saying we are the God. There is nothing that is mine, even my soul is not mine. At the resurrection, my spiritual body, will give permanent life to my soul (the soul being the me).

1 Timothy 6:16 says only God has immortality, but angels have immortality, does that mean angels are God? Obviously not. What he means is only God possess it, He's the owner.
7xlight...
your missing tons of context and biblical references, but far be it from me to point them out to you, cause according to you I am neither a believer nor learned enough to know scripture. Boxer...may you hear the voice of God as you learn to trust Him with words to say and a heart that demonstrated His Love in the midst of this storm.
 
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