Today's Ruling

NothingIsImpossible

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You, personally, don't have to recognise their marriage. But you still have to sell them a cake if you're a cake seller. Show me where it's written cake sellers are only allowed to sell cakes to marriages they recognise as "actual" marriages?

Well I could also say show me where it says they have to sell to everyone. Religion aside what about freedom in america? What is the point of being a buisness owner if you can't run it how you want. By that I don't mean like extreme stuff like "I'm going to sell guns to kids!". There are plenty of businesses that discriminate all the time and they don't get in trouble. At Hooters they only hire "skinny and sexy" girls that essentially are treated like eye candy. But they won't hire overweight girls, realistic girls, ugly (according to the world) girls. Or what about a buisness that sells cowboy stuff but only allows legit cowboys/girls to work at it. Or game stores that don't like to hire older people (unless in high up positions). Or female schools that only allow females. I could go on.

I guess as a christian I feel my beliefs should carry over to all that I do. It is the point of having rules right? If I am only "christian" when at home or church because rules say so then am I really serving God? I don't know how a government can declare you can't be your religion at work, especially if you own it. Again this isn't talking about extremes. The more I think about america, the more I realize we do have freedoms, but not enough to truly say we are free. Though this isn't my country. My place of residence is not in this lifetime, this is just like a rental situation wit this body and life. ^_^
 
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Armoured

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Well I could also say show me where it says they have to sell to everyone.
Um, right in the civil rights act. And it doesn't say "everyone", although IMHO, it should, but it does say "protected classes, and places where homosexuals are a protected class, well, there it is.

Religion aside what about freedom in america? What is the point of being a buisness owner if you can't run it how you want. By that I don't mean like extreme stuff like "I'm going to sell guns to kids!". There are plenty of businesses that discriminate all the time and they don't get in trouble. At Hooters they only hire "skinny and sexy" girls that essentially are treated like eye candy. But they won't hire overweight girls, realistic girls, ugly (according to the world) girls. Or what about a buisness that sells cowboy stuff but only allows legit cowboys/girls to work at it. Or game stores that don't like to hire older people (unless in high up positions). Or female schools that only allow females. I could go on.
And they are all arguable cases. But I assume you agree with suitable legislation providing oversight of business, for example, OH&S laws? I mean, why should an employer have to provide safety gear? Surely if the workers were worried about their safety they'd be more careful, right? An extreme example, possibly, but designed to show that most people aren't actually happy for business owners to behave however they want. Yourself included.

I guess as a christian I feel my beliefs should carry over to all that I do. It is the point of having rules right? If I am only "christian" when at home or church because rules say so then am I really serving God? I don't know how a government can declare you can't be your religion at work, especially if you own it. Again this isn't talking about extremes. The more I think about america, the more I realize we do have freedoms, but not enough to truly say we are free. Though this isn't my country. My place of residence is not in this lifetime, this is just like a rental situation wit this body and life. ^_^
I'm a Christian. I just don't believe in forcing none Christians to abide by Christian rules by co-opting secular law.
 
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LinkH

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Oh boy. Another lovely myth about homosexuality that was popular way back when.

Nonetheless, the theory rests on facts, and at least a few of them are undisputed -- including, most significantly, HIV's family tree. There are two species of the virus, HIV-1 and HIV-2. The first evolved from a simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) found in chimpanzees, while the second came from an SIV in a type of monkey called the sooty mangabey.

The source of AIDS was reported on YEARS ago, but of course the stories of how gay people 'started' it still persists today I see. Please.

They hunt these animals, and it spread via their blood. AIDS was spread by blood transfusions with infected people. Sexual behavior from anyone could also spread with infected people. Yes, I remember the stories of how it spread in the gay bath houses too....wonder if they monkeys were there as well. Sigh.


Are you trying to engage in sophistry on purpose? I didn't say that homosexuals invented AIDs, but what I've read about it is that homosexuals certainly spread it before it spread among the general fornicator population and recipients of blood transfusions. An early name proposed for AIDS was Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID). And with a super-quick web search, I found that the CDC website says, "Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) are more severely affected by HIV than any other group in the United States." <http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/>
 
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LinkH

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Churches have a long history of not marrying certain types of people, and secular governments have a long history of not trying to make them. Seriously, if you can find a single example, from any time, from anywhere, ever, where any government has compelled any church to perform a wedding, I'll jump on the bandwagon. Until that time, however, I se the "but they're gunna force churches!" thing as nothing but fear mongering and bad losing.

Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Now you've got to jump on the anti-gay-marriage bandwagon.
 
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Armoured

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Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Now you've got to jump on the anti-gay-marriage bandwagon.
Um, actually, no, because Henry didn't force the Catholic church to marry him and Boleyn. Indeed, it was the issue over which Henry broke with Rome and established a new Church. So, nice try, but it kind of shows the opposite of your point. Next?
 
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Armoured

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Are you trying to engage in sophistry on purpose? I didn't say that homosexuals invented AIDs, but what I've read about it is that homosexuals certainly spread it before it spread among the general fornicator population and recipients of blood transfusions. An early name proposed for AIDS was Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID). And with a super-quick web search, I found that the CDC website says, "Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) are more severely affected by HIV than any other group in the United States." <http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/>
Here's a tip for you: if your argument relies on outdated and discredited science for its basis (e.g. "GRIDS"), maybe don't use that argument anymore.
 
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Hetta

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Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children under the age of 14. People on the sex offender registry were found guilty of crimes like rape, child molestation, or indecent exposure when they went to the bathroom in the bushes. As far as I know, there is no law against adults being sexually attracted to children. And if pedophilia is considered an 'orientation' then organizations forbidden from discriminating based on 'sexual orientation' are not legally allowed to discriminate against someone who applies for a job taking kids to the bathroom at the daycare for saying he or she is sexually attracted to children.
You just made that up. It simply isn't true. If someone said they are attracted to children, they will not get a job working with children. Please stick to facts.

A child can give consent, literally. (Look up 'consent'). It doesn't count for legal purposes, but all that is fungible. The Supreme Court could choose to override laws about age of consent next month if they wanted to, claiming child sex is guaranteed by the preamble to the Constitution.
A child cannot give consent to sex. What the Supreme Court "could" choose to do doesn't matter. Please stick to facts.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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People always tell me AIDS came from the homosexual community and is mainly spread by them now. Some tell me they feel its Gods judgement on them (AIDS existing).

You just made that up. It simply isn't true. If someone said they are attracted to children, they will not get a job working with children. Please stick to facts.

A child cannot give consent to sex. What the Supreme Court "could" choose to do doesn't matter. Please stick to facts.
Thats only in america though. Doesn't mean it won't happen here or doesn't happen here. A child could give consent if the supreme court said a child could. Laws change. Really I think a person should not marry until they are at least 25. So maybe the law should change that your a child until your 25. I'm sort of half serious on that though. If your brain doesn't truly mature enough until 25 then wouldn't that mean you still think like a child before 25 then?
 
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Armoured

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People always tell me AIDS came from the homosexual community and is mainly spread by them now. Some tell me they feel its Gods judgement on them (AIDS existing).
And they're wrong. But even if they were, does that mean that being more affected by a disease equates with sinfulness?
 
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Hetta

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People always tell me AIDS came from the homosexual community and is mainly spread by them now. Some tell me they feel its Gods judgement on them (AIDS existing).
Some people don't have clue. That's all.
Thats only in america though. Doesn't mean it won't happen here or doesn't happen here. A child could give consent if the supreme court said a child could. Laws change. Really I think a person should not marry until they are at least 25. So maybe the law should change that your a child until your 25. I'm sort of half serious on that though. If your brain doesn't truly mature enough until 25 then wouldn't that mean you still think like a child before 25 then?
It's not "only in America." In most of the western world pedophiles are on the sex offenders registry (obviously, only after they're caught, there's no way of tracking people's thoughts), and if a person interviewed said that his or her orientation was "pre-pubescent children" they would not get the job. If they were found using any child inappropriate contentography images they would be both fired and prosecuted. The Supreme Court is not changing this, and continuing to suggest that it is is not a fact.

A child until you're 25? The part of the brain that deals with risk does not mature until a person is in their 20s. That doesn't mean that a person is a "child" until then. It means that when a child is young, its parents guide it and encourage it and try to help it to mature and to be aware of its limitations in all things. That includes teaching a child about being responsible with its interactions with others, including - at the appropriate age - teaching him or her about the whole bundle that is a part of "sex" education. Kids take from it what they will, but at least if they are thoroughly educated, they know what is safe and unsafe sex and they can take care of themselves. You can't legislate against young people having sex. Not unless you're going to step into George Orwell's 1984 world and have everyone's activities tracked all day and every day.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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The other reason I mentioned 25 is I find most couples who are under 25 seem to divorce within a few years. They never seem to process what it takes to be in a marriage. Both sides have the expectations but are not grounded. Either that or getting married as a christian should require a few weeks worth of pre-martial counseling on tough issues that will come up. Because most of the counseling I've seen today is not very good and doesn't seem to truly prepare people. Then again it could all be a matter of technology creating false illusions to young people on what marriage is so they never step away long enough to look at how marriage really works (less Cinderella and more realistic).
 
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Hetta

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Actually, it's not so much to do with the age of the couples, it's to do with how long they have been married. The majority of divorces happen within the first two years. If this happens to coincide with people in their late teens/early twenties, then that is why the numbers are skewed. After five years the figures fall, and they fall again after 10 years. So, if the majority of people married at 25, the highest rate of divorce would be around age 27, and it would fall at 32, and again at 42. I hope this makes sense.

But you will find there is a big argument amongst conservative Christians that Christian couples should marry young, so that they are not tempted to have pre-marital sex. I disagree. My eldest son married at 22 and imo they were far too young to marry (the wife is younger). There was a lot of pressure on him to propose, when I believe he should instead have had a few years to do guy things (not to be promiscuous please note), begin to build his career, and then they could have thought about marriage after that time. However, they are now married so we need to just hope for the best for him/them. They are both still quite immature and unwilling to listen to advice, so already (two months into their marriage) have made some financial mistakes, which is a shame. I don't want them to have huge regrets or be arguing about money, but there's nothing that parents can do when their adult children are so determined to make this decision.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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OK....ONE MORE TIME regarding businesses. IF you do business with the public AND your locality has non-discrimination laws, you are in violation of those laws if you refuse to serve or employ someone based on sex, race or sexual orientation. Yes, they can sue you for violating that statute. And, the business owner DESERVES to get sued for refusing to obey the law of the locality. Christians have no special rights to avoid those laws.

Churches are protected from being sued for refusal to marry a couple. They do it all the time.

Regarding incest. MOST states already have laws on the books that prevent close family marriages.

Children - again...consent in a legal way means that the person is OLD ENOUGH to give consent. IF they aren't, there's NOTHING that will be done to change it.

Quit with the baloney and leaping to conclusions.
 
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LinkH

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Btw, a Christian cake baker asked to bake a gay wedding cake can say he only makes one kind, one that has Leviticus 20:13 on it, and they can find their own grooms or brides to go on top. All other options have something on them that indicate husband and wife.

This could be an alternative to refusing service. The baker can bake them a cake without endorsing what they are doing. Problem solved.

The issue with the bakers is not refusing service to homosexuals. It's not wanting to make something that endorses what they don't believe in.
 
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LinkH

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You just made that up. It simply isn't true. If someone said they are attracted to children, they will not get a job working with children. Please stick to facts.

These are logical deductions. If pedophilia comes to be considered as a legal 'orientation' in jurisdictions where it is illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation, it will be illegal to discriminate against pedophiles who want to work in kindergartens. That just follows logically. All it will take is the media brainwashing society into believing pedophilia is okay or that it is an orientation.

What a crazy world we live in that one can be a protected class when it comes to hiring based on their sexual preference? That makes no sense at all.

And it is not unrealistic to think that a society that thinks that two men can marry would also degenerate into approving of sex with younger and younger children or that it would legalize incest.

In our case, it's probably more likely they just won't enforce the laws on the books against incest like they do with the laws about adultery, sex acts that homosexuals tend to do, fornication, and other state laws concerning sex that have been on the books for over 100 years, depending on where one lives.
 
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mkgal1

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What a crazy world we live in that one can be a protected class when it comes to hiring based on their sexual preference? That makes no sense at all.

It doesn't? Discrimination & dismissing people based on the bias/hatred/fear/bigotry of the one doing the hiring or renting out a home seems right to you? What if someone had a personal issue with someone with YOUR beliefs and you couldn't find a home to rent or buy due to that being known (or assumptions were made based on limited "clues")? Or what if you couldn't get hired based on your variety of Christian beliefs? Do you think that's okay? What if someone had an issue with interracial marriages and they wouldn't hire you based on that? That's okay?

Personally.....I feel we had a pretty "crazy world" when people thought it okay (in general) to leave women and blacks completely out of the voting process (and that wasn't too many years ago)......and when all the Jim Crow laws were in effect.
 
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LinkH

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mkgal1,

An employer should certainly be allowed to turn someone down for a job for coming in and talking about their sexual preferences. Why would having sex with the same gender be a special protected class?

I had a friend who rented apartments in California. He didn't discriminate based on race. He had a number of apartments rented to Mexicans, for example. He didn't care what the race was as long as they paid. Then someon from the city applied for the apartment and he had to put in the time to check all the references and told the guy he could have the apartment. Then the man, who was black, said he worked for the city and was just making sure he didn't discriminate.

So now if a sexual pervert comes into an office to apply for a job, and you are the manager, shouldn't you be allowed to turn him down just because he talks about his sex life? Why would this be limited to those who indulge their 'vile passions' for homosexuality? If a man applies for a job and says that he likes to perform certain sexual acts with redheads or Asian women, should that be protected? If a woman applies for a job and mentions that she is sexually attraced to men in uniform, should that be protected? It's a foolish thing to make a discrimination issue.

Sure, it's bad to persecute the saints for being saints. But it is commendable to suffer for righteousness, but not commendable to suffer for sinning, as Peter points out. But it's not wrong to decline to rent out the other half of your duplex, where you live with your kids, because the potential tenant looks creepy. A man dressing up like a woman is creepy, and that should be grounds for not renting to someone. There are apartment complexes that seem to have a lot of people who act like that in them, and businessmen willing to exploit certain market niches. The right of a duplex owner to protect his kids from creepy influences certainly outweighs anyone's 'right' to sin against God.

You've been brainwashed by the media, through what is probably a Satanic strategy. You think of certain people who sin sexually and those who struggle with those lusts as victims of society.

There is a warning in Romans 1:32 about approving of sin.
"Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."
(ESV)

There is also a warning from our Lord in Matthew about those who would encourage one of the little ones to stumble

Matthew 18:6
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (ESV)

So you shouldn't be encouraging people that it is okay to get 'gay married.' Just like we should never encourage a married person to commit adultery or for someone to have sex with a close relative.

But there is encouragement to those who would pray for and encourage those who fall into sin in James 5.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
(ESV)
 
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From LinkH:
"So now if a sexual pervert comes into an office to apply for a job, and you are the manager, shouldn't you be allowed to turn him down just because he talks about his sex life? Why would this be limited to those who indulge their 'vile passions' for homosexuality? If a man applies for a job and says that he likes to perform certain sexual acts with redheads or Asian women, should that be protected? If a woman applies for a job and mentions that she is sexually attraced to men in uniform, should that be protected? It's a foolish thing to make a discrimination issue."

IF this were true then I could refuse to hire/continue to employ a heterosexual who talked about HIS/HER sex life.

Fact is...there are LAWS on the books that prohibit discrimination due to race/color/sexual preference. As a business owner or property owner who does business with the public, you are REQUIRED to obey those laws. End of the discussion. I don't care about what anyone's "personal" preferences are, the laws of the land must be obeyed. If it bothers your conscience that much then maybe it's time to find a different line of work. Just like the clerks who are refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples because they are "bothered" by it...well, you took an oath, as a public servant...put up or shut up. As a business owner, you are subject to the laws regarding businesses, including non-discrimination laws.

From Romans 13
13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.3 For good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Biblically, you haven't got a leg to stand on....
 
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