Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

<< In Romans 11 Paul seeks to save "some of them" admitting that not all of them will accept the Gospel.>>

Rom 11:25-27 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Do you understand the words. "all Israel will be saved"? Notice Paul did not say "SOME OF Israel will be saved." He said "ALL Israel will be saved."

28-29 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

30-31 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy.

32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

<< In Romans 2, 9, and 11 it is only the people of faith that are saved - regardless if they are Jew or Gentile. >>

Wrong.

In Romans 11, Paul addresses the specific issue of Israel's status before God. He states that "a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in" and that once the full number of Gentiles com in, all if the Jews will be saved. At that time the hardening will be removed and they will have faith in Jesus.

Just read it without deciding what it "has to say" before you read what it DOES say.

<<So it seems to me that to be Israel according to the promise one must be in Christ and that is what Romans eleven is about.>>

ANd when the full number of Gentiles have come, Israel will be saved by believing in Christ so that they may be IN Christ.

fatherjimparker said:

The natural descendants of Abraham will be there in the New Jerusalem along side of those who were grafted in because the gifts and calling of the Lord are without repentance and all Israel will be saved.

At least that's what Paul said.

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~Cassia~ said:

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isa 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, says the LORD.

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Your not taking into account the OT reference Paul was quoting and are therefore misinterpreting what Paul is saying.

~Cassia~ said:

Your not taking into account the OT reference Paul was quoting and are therefore misinterpreting what Paul is saying.

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What part of "All Israel will be saved" have I got wrong?

fatherjimparker said:

What part of "All Israel will be saved" have I got wrong?

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The part where the OT says " and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob" which naturally excludes those who do not turn from transgressions.

~Cassia~ said:

The part where the OT says " and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob" which naturally excludes those who do not turn from transgressions.

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"All Israel will be saved" presupposes that they turn from their transgressions.

fatherjimparker said:

"All Israel will be saved" presupposes that they turn from their transgressions.

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Zec 1:3-6
Therefore say you unto them, Thus says the LORD of hosts; Turn you unto me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, says the LORD of hosts.
Be you not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus says the LORD of hosts; Turn you now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, says the LORD.
Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live forever?
But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our deeds, so has he dealt with us.

Zech 13:2
And it shall come to pass in that day, says the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

Heb 10:16-17
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Jer 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It seems clear to me at least that the way of the nation of the Jews is as the way of Christian, when the truth of Jesus is revealed to them they are given the choice of turning to Him and in doing so become one with those who are grafted in. The time is past where God deals with nations, in fact the time of Judges and Samuel brought in God's rule to individuals but only people have managed to place themselves under leadership not directed by God.

<<It seems clear to me at least that the way of the nation of the Jews is as the way of Christian, when the truth of Jesus is revealed to them they are given the choice of turning to Him and in doing so become one with those who are grafted in.>>

Yes. At that time, all Israel will be saved.

<< The time is past where God deals with nations,>>

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you (Abe) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

<< in fact the time of Judges and Samuel brought in God's rule to individuals but only people have managed to place themselves under leadership not directed by God.>>

Your meaning is unclear.

fatherjimparker said:

<<It seems clear to me at least that the way of the nation of the Jews is as the way of Christian, when the truth of Jesus is revealed to them they are given the choice of turning to Him and in doing so become one with those who are grafted in.>>

Yes. At that time, all Israel will be saved.

<< The time is past where God deals with nations,>>

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you (Abe) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

<< in fact the time of Judges and Samuel brought in God's rule to individuals but only people have managed to place themselves under leadership not directed by God.>>

Your meaning is unclear.

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Ge 13:15
For all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever.

Ac 7:5
And he gave him no inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him, when as yet he had no child.

~Cassia~ said:

When speaking of the children of Abraham there are those who are of the law and those who are of grace. Christ came as one under the law, to represent all of those were in bondage under the elements of the world and under tutors and governors until the time appointed by the Father. Those who come into grace are children of the promise (Isaac) and all come in the only way possible and that is thru Christ. The epistle to the Galations points to the heavenly Jerusalem, so that is what I meant as being spiritually Israel (The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob has seemingly foretold this in the bible)
That's not to say that there are not special promises made to Israel that are not spiritual ones, but of earthly inheritance, of which who knows, maybe many christians who are not Jewish by descent may be partakers of as well by not being party to the grace of promise but fitted more to the law ...

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I don't know how else I can explain it to you. We will just have to agree to disagree since this has been said before.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68235607, member: 235244"]

False pride lead some Jews to imagine that salvation was at the national level instead of on the individual level.

Paul shows in Rom 2, Rom 9 and Rom 11 that salvation happens at the individual level - and they are not Jews that are merely Jews by physical parentage - but rather it is those of faith only who are counted as Jews

Rom 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9
. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


Romans 11 shows that "some" are saved from among the physical gentiles and "some" are saved from among the physical Jews.

Rom 11
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

So then with some literal physical Jews and some literal physical gentiles saved... then when all of that is complete it is in that way that all of spiritual Israel is saved.
; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

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But if we turn a blind eye to that basic Bible fact - then maybe we could imagine that all of some physical group - denomination - nation are saved.

All Methodists... or all Baptists... or all Catholics... or all the Chinese... or all the physical Jews and forget what the Bible says about the fact that it is at the individual level. IF that is the argument then someone needs to show how it is consistent with the Gospel facts to the contrary as stated in the Bible

Certainly we can say that "All of Noah's family were spared from the flood" -- but they still had to individually choose to get on the boat and those who drowned had to choose not to do so.[/QUOTE]

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in the Gospel salvation is always on an individual basis and as the texts above show - those "individuals" are grafted in to what is termed spiritual Israel.

So then the Heb 8 NEW COVENANT is made NOT with Gentiles but with spiritual Israel.

This teaching is consistent throughout the entire NT.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68218466, member: 235244"]
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[/QUOTE]

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Christ said in Matt 28 to teach others what Christ had taught the disciples - so the New Covenant in Luke 22 is the New Covenant proclaimed by the NT writers in Heb 8.

~Cassia~ said:

Ge 13:15
For all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever.

Ac 7:5
And he gave him no inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him, when as yet he had no child.

I don't know how else I can explain it to you. We will just have to agree to disagree since this has been said before.

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I don't disagree with you.

Paul said that all Israel will be saved. That's future event.

fatherjimparker said:

I don't disagree with you.

Paul said that all Israel will be saved. That's future event.

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If you agree with me then you are saying 'all Israel' that will be saved is 'the remnant' of national Israel that will be saved in the future since that is what I have been saying.

~Cassia~ said:

If you agree with me then you are saying 'all Israel' that will be saved is 'the remnant' of national Israel that will be saved in the future since that is what I have been saying.

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Paul said "all", not "a remnant" but, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

<< False pride lead some Jews to imagine that salvation was at the national level instead of on the individual level. >>

The Old Covenant was a national level. In fact, it was written in the standard format of an ancient, eastern, Suzerain-Vassal treaty between a high king and a vassal king. The covenant stated "I will be your God and you will be my people." (Exo 6:7; Lev 26:12)

The promise of the Old Covenant was; if the Jews kept the covenant, they would prosper and live long in the land. (Deu 5:33) If they did not keep the covenant, God promised to chastise them, cast them out of the land, and allow them to be oppressed by their enemies so that they would repent and then return to their land.

That Old Covenant is permanent but it is not the way to eternal life; it is the way for Jews to prosper and live long in the land which God gave to them. Eternal life can be found only through faith in (and faithfulness to) Jesus.

The idea of salvation and eternal life, as found in the New Covenant, had not yet been revealed at the time of Moses. The Old Covenant established a people of God, the descendants of Israel (Jacob). The record of Genesis illustrates the family line that God chose as the those from whom salvation would come. (Adam -> Seth -> Noah -> Shem -> Abram -> Isaac -> Jacob)

<< in the Gospel salvation is always on an individual basis and as the texts above show - those "individuals" are grafted in to what is termed spiritual Israel.>>

Actually, the "olive tree" to which Paul refers is "physical Israel." Those of Physical Israel who believe are also "spiritual" Israel. Those who do not are broken off in the same manner as Jesus speaks about believers at John 15.

John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Those of "spiritual Israel" who do not remain in Christ and bear fruit will suffer the same fate as those of "physical Israel" who did not believe.

Salvation is both physical AND spiritual. In the kingdom, those who are saved will have, imperishable, immortal, physical bodies. (As will those who are lost, though they will wish it were otherwise.)

fatherjimparker said:

Paul said "all", not "a remnant" but, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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well we could say (and some do, myself included) that ALL the tribes are represented in the 144,00 of the l millennial prophesies.. well except for Dan being replaced by Ephriam and Manassa but that tribe is seen in the foundation of the NJ iirc .... another topic tho I would think.

~Cassia~ said:

well we could say (and some do, myself included) that ALL the tribes are represented in the 144,00 of the l millennial prophesies.. well except for Dan being replaced by Ephriam and Manassa but that tribe is seen in the foundation of the NJ iirc .... another topic tho I would think.

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That could be.

Only one sign was given to national Israel to repent and turn back to God conditionally by saying blessed is who who came in the name of the Lord. That sign is the sign of Jonah which is Christ's resurrection.

So the question arises what happened to all the Jews from the cross and onwards who had not made this proclamation in their lives and have now long departed from this life?

Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The sign of Jonah was their probationary period, just like the men of Nineveh, to accept the miracle of Christ's resurrection, instead the Jewish nation led by the Pharisees reacted in a completely opposite way. The Jewish authority seeing the body of Jesus was not there, paid people to say that his disciples had bribed the guards and taken him and hid him somewhere.

Even to this day they make these preposterous claims.

So as far as God is concerned there must be a line drawn in the sand as to when he will allow them to come to their senses, unfortunately for many departed Jews Matthew 8:11-12 becomes their reality.

~Cassia~ said:

If you agree with me then you are saying 'all Israel' that will be saved is 'the remnant' of national Israel that will be saved in the future since that is what I have been saying.

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"All Israel being saved" Paul explains is all those down through time who become Married to Jesus in the New Covenant by the Gospel that we preach, fulfilled to both jews and gentiles. After that is the end. Nothing more. When the end comes, it is finished. The final result of all those saved by the Gospel IS All Israel is saved. For we are all One Body in Christ gathered as One House, All in All together from then on in Eternities. Beautiful