Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

Winepress777 said:

I can't imagine why? I would never put myself into that position, that is what Paul is warning against there... I would never speak in a foreign language (tongue) to God in the presence of someone else, shutting them out of the Word being delivered. That would be rude of course. I can pray to God in that language of course, but I'd do it in private. But to do that in front of others is Barbaric... in fact as Paul goes on to say later in that chapter. Read it all because I think you misunderstand...
It has to do with preaching the Gospel to men of a different tongue. Start at Pentecost, you'll see there what the gift of tongues actually was.

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I agree with everything you said except the last sentence. At Pentecost those filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues were speaking the praises of God. They were not preaching the Gospel. It was Peter who got up and preached to them in plain Aramaic which was the common language of the time. Hebrew was the official religious language. But whatever language was used, it was the equivalent of a preacher getting up in front of a crowd in your country or mind and preaching in plain understandable language, giving the crowd a good dose of the Gospel. Tongues was not used for the Gospel at Pentecost or anywhere else. Some early Pentecostals got the wrong idea about that and believed that if they went over to China and tried to preach the Gospel in tongues to them that they would miraculously preach Mandarin Chinese. They all came back home broke and disillusioned, because it didn't work. It was a misuse of the gift of tongues which God did not support. And yet, there have been sovereign moves of God where He has miraculously enabled a person to preach the Gospel in the language of the country even though the person had never learned the language. But this was not the gift of tongues. It was the working of a miracle, and the person retained the knowledge of that foreign language for the rest of their lives.

I want to make the point that the accounts of tongues in Acts were the diary entries of what Luke actually saw and had reported to him. His intention was not to teach the operation of the gift. That was left to Paul to do that to the Corinthians. All Luke did was to report on what happened. He did not attempt to analyse it or use what he wrote to establish a doctrine, and neither should we.

Biblicist2 said:

The problem is that we do not have any examples from within the Scriptures where tongues has ever been used to preach the Gospel. This also includes the Day of Pentecost as we know from Acts 2:11 that the 120 were speaking of "the mighty deeds of God" which has nothing to do with an evangelistic message. In fact, the crowd was so confused by the words of praise that the 120 were giviing that Peter had to intervene with an evangelistic message in Aramaic where he was able to both explain what was happening and about the Good News.

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I gave my response before I read your post! Shows we're on the same page!

Winepress777 said:

I know exactly what those scriptures mean. I just explained them to you perfectly simple.
In fact, exactly as Paul Trumps the conversation to the Corinthians, so will I provide it;
This was the problem;

(1Co 14:16) Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

This is the core of why Paul is explaining to them not to talk in foreign tongues in PUBLIC to those who didn't speak that tongue. This is clear as a bell. PLAIN MEANING. Of you and I, I'm the only one seeing the plain text here obviously.

(1Co 14:19) howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I sure hope you see this...

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The problem is that you are leaving out other significant things that Paul said in the same chapter describing the nature of tongues. If you are going to quote part of 1 Corinthians 14, you need to include every verse in the chapter to get Paul's overall view of tongues. He was quite specific to the Corinthians because they were misusing the gift, so he wanted to make sure that they exactly what tongues was all about. He didn't have to do the same for the other churches because they were using it correctly. You see Paul did not believe in fixing something that ain't broke!

Error in posting. Please see the reply next.

Biblicist2 said:

I was wondering if you would start with this passage where many of our English translations improperly employ "spiritual gifts" for the Greek word pneumatikon.

As you will undoubtedly see from the following commentaries, of all the options for this word, the least viable is that of "spiritual gifts" where I would lean more toward the more literal reading of "spiritual matters".

Througouth the Epistles Paul employs two words which are frequently translated in our English translations as "spiritual gifts/s" which are charismaton (grace) and pneumatikos (spiritual matters/things).

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Spoiler: Lexical analysis of 1Cor 12:1 "pneumatikon"

Friberg Lexicon:
"22291 πνευματικός, ή, όν spiritual, pertaining to the spirit, opposite σαρκικός (fleshly, carnal) and σάρκινος (worldly, earthly); (1) as distinguishing the nonmaterial from the material part of man; (2) predominately as distinguishing what belongs to the supernatural world from what belongs to the natural world (1C 15.44, 46); substantivally ὁ π. the spiritual person, the Spirit-filled person, i.e. a person possessing and governed by the Spirit of God (1C 2.15); neuter plural τὰ πνευματικά spiritual things or matters (1C 9.11); spiritual gifts or enablements (1C 14.1); (3) as an adjective expressing the qualifying characteristic of impersonal things under the divine order spiritual (RO 7.14); (4) as an adjective denoting relationship to satanic forces; neuter plural τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας as a substantive spiritual forces of evil, supernatural evil powers (EP 6.12)

Gingrich Lexicon:
5219 πνευματικός
πνευματικός, ή, όν pertaining to the spirit, spiritual—1. caused by or filled with the (divine) Spirit, pertaining or corresponding to the (divine) Spirit—a. as adj. Ro 1:11; 7:14; 1 Cor 10:3f; 15:44; Eph 1:3; 5:19; Col 1:9; 3:16; 1 Pt 2:5. ὁ πνευματικὸς (ἄνθρωπος) in 1 Cor 2:15 means the spiritual person, whose powers of judgment are directed by the divine πνεῦμα. Cf. also 1 Cor 15:47 v.l.—b. subst. τὰ πνευματικά spiritual things or matters Ro 15:27; 1 Cor 2:13; 9:11; 15:46. Spiritual gifts 1 Cor 12:1; 14:1. ὁ πνευματικός the one who possesses the Spirit 1 Cor 3:1; 14:37; Gal 6:1.—2. pertaining to (evil) spirits subst. spirit-forces Eph 6:12.* [pneumatic] [pg 162]

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Gordon D. Fee (1987) pg. 576

“If so, then both here and in 14:1 the better translation might be “the things of the Spirit,” which would refer primarily to spiritual manifestations, from the perspective of the Spirit’s endowment; at the same time it would point toward those who are so endowed.”​

The First Letter to the Corinthians, Ciampa & Rosner (2010) pg. 561

“The TNIV translation gifts of the Spirit may be getting just a bit ahead of Paul’s thought at this point. Literally he says, “Now I do not want you to be ignorant concerning spiritual things [or concerning matters of spirits]” or possibly “concerning spiritual people. BDAG and most translations (for rare exceptions, see CSB, NJB) support translating the key word as “spiritual gifts” or “those who possess spiritual gifts,” but the words is much broader in its meaning. . .”​

1 Corinthians, David E. Garland (2003) pgs. 561-564

“If the genitive plural τονπνυεματικῶν (ton pneumatikon) is read as masculine, then the issue revolves around “the spiritual persons” and their characteristics. If it is read as neuter, then the issue concerns the nature of “the spiritual things” or “the spiritual gifts.” The ambiguity reflects the fact that Paul picks up an issue raised by the Corinthians, which they would understand, even if we do not. . . The majority of commentators and versions opt to read τονπνυεματικῶν as neuter, referring to “spiritual gifts,” since the subject of Paul’s overall argument concerns the manifestations of the Spirit in the church, not the characteristics of spiritual persons . . .”​

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Anthony C. Thiselton (2000) pgs. 909-911

“A relatively wide range of writers conclude that it is “impossible to find objective ground for a decision between the two possibilities, and little difference in sense is involved – spiritual persons are those who have spiritual gifts. It refers to either. But if both the writer and the readers well knew that the Greek ending included both genders (i.e., excluded neither), why should the meaning be construed in either-or terms at all? Hence Scrage notes that the masculine may embrace the Corinthians meaning, while the neuter reflects Paul’s preference to substitute χαρισματα. Meyer rightly cies Chrysostom and Luther as interpreting the Greek to mean Concerning the forms of action which proceed from the Holy Spirit and make manifest his agency. . .”​

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Thanks for additional information. Of course, the word 'gifts' is added. Yes, Paul was speaking of matters related to spiritual person. It may refer to traits of a spiritual person. Nevertheless, how can one think of some traits to be inferior to others which are to be preferred?

Alithis said:

now now . we know that is quiet and out of context reference ..
interesting that it seems to be most often those consider themselves to experts .do so having not ever experienced what they deem themselves to be experts on ...

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Should I become a drug addict to experience and then conclude it is undesirable for a healthy life?

Alithis said:

what blind faith do you speak of .. ? blessed are those who have not seen ..yet believe ...? that one perhaps ?

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It is belief based on reliable witnesses. Cannot not be just one. It should be at least two reliable sources or persons. How many sources you have for speaking in unknown tongue?

Righttruth said:

Thanks for additional information. Of course, the word 'gifts' is added. Yes, Paul was speaking of matters related to spiritual person. It may refer to traits of a spiritual person. Nevertheless, how can one think of some traits to be inferior to others which are to be preferred?

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As Paul considers prophecy to be greater than tongues at least within the congregational setting, as per 1Cor 14:4 “and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues” then I suppose that probably answers your question.

When I am praying in the Spirit (tongues) during times of private prayer, then prophecy is of no use whatsoever and I’m not sure what I would be able to do with the Office of healings during these times of prayer! Though the situation would change dramatically if I was directly involved in praying for someone who is sick; even if I were to pray in the Spirit while praying for such a person then the important congregational ability to be able to interpret through the power of the Holy Spirit would then become completely redundant.

So yes, some manifestations of the Spirit are certainly greater than others which admittedly can depend on the environment and the situation.

Righttruth said:

It is belief based on reliable witnesses. Cannot not be just one. It should be at least two reliable sources or persons. How many sources you have for speaking in unknown tongue?

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Tell me, did a Pentecostal pay you to ask your question as it was absolutely priceless!
The answer that we would all provide is first with the incredible amount of Biblical testimony along with the immense scholarly material that has been produced over the past few decades and...and...with the reported 300+ million Believers who also speak in tongues.

I suppose that I should also add in that the Holy Spirit also testifies to these things as well; after all, he is our teacher who will confirm all truth to us.

Biblicist2 said:

As Paul considers prophecy to be greater than tongues at least within the congregational setting, as per 1Cor 14:4 “and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues” then I suppose that probably answers your question.

When I am praying in the Spirit (tongues) during times of private prayer, then prophecy is of no use whatsoever and I’m not sure what I would be able to do with the Office of healings during these times of prayer! Though the situation would change dramatically if I was directly involved in praying for someone who is sick; even if I were to pray in the Spirit while praying for such a person then the important congregational ability to be able to interpret through the power of the Holy Spirit would then become completely redundant.

So yes, some manifestations of the Spirit are certainly greater than others which admittedly can depend on the environment and the situation.

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But why Paul wanted that to be discarded irrespective of the situations?

Biblicist2 said:

Tell me, did a Pentecostal pay you to ask your question as it was absolutely priceless!
The answer that we would all provide is first with the incredible amount of Biblical testimony along with the immense scholarly material that has been produced over the past few decades and...and...with anywhere between the reported 300+ million Believers who also speak in tongues.

I suppose that I should also add in that the Holy Spirit also testifies to these things as well; after all, he is our teacher who will confirm all truth to us.

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I am asking additional sources in the Bible itself, not the number of people involved.

Righttruth said:

But why Paul wanted that to be discarded irrespective of the situations?

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Discard what exactly! I'm at a loss as to why anyone would suggest that Paul would ever minimise any aspect of the Spirit's ministry.

Righttruth said:

I am asking additional sources in the Bible itself, not the number of people involved.

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As we're now at post 154 where we have dissected and analyzed Acts, 1 Corinthians parts of Rom 8, Eph 4 and Jude, then how far do you want to go.

As I am about to sign off for the night then may I suggest that you re-read through this thread.

Biblicist2 said:

Oops... after a well constructed reply to my whimsical post you are about to discover that I was in full agreement with you. Maybe you missed my attempt at irony - sorry!

PS: You reply was certainly a good one and I couldn't agree more.

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Your irony was obvious to me, and it did that good work of drawing out Mike's very good observations.

Why do we even bother to argue scripture with cessationists, who, by definition, reject all scripture that they themselves just don't want to follow? You'll show them scripture and they will continue to tell you that it's irrellevent or means the opposite of what it actually says. Don't you ever get tired of that? I have decades ago. If they are as set as the most vehement athiest on rejecting God's word, I say let them reject God's word then. Show them their folly once and then stop casting your pearls.

Biblicist2 said:

Discard what exactly! I'm at a loss as to why anyone would suggest that Paul would ever minimise any aspect of the Spirit's ministry.

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Speaking of unknown tongue.

Biblicist2 said:

As we're now at post 154 where we have dissected and analyzed Acts, 1 Corinthians parts of Rom 8, Eph 4 and Jude, then how far do you want to go.

As I am about to sign off for the night then may I suggest that you re-read through this thread.

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In all your referred books, where else you find the mention of unknown tongue speaking, apart from 1 Corinthians.

http://biblehub.com/isr/isaiah/28.htm

5In that day יהוה of hosts is for a crown of splendour and a head-dress of comeliness to the remnant of His people,

6and a spirit of right-ruling to him who sits in right-ruling, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7And these too have gone astray through wine, and through strong drink wandered about. Priest and prophet have gone astray through strong drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they wander about through strong drink, they go astray in vision, they stumble in right-ruling.

8For all tables shall be covered with vomit, no place without filth.

9Whom would He teach knowledge? And whom would He make to understand the message? Those weaned from milk, those taken from the breasts!

10For it is: command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

11For with a jabbering lip and a foreign tongue He speaks to this people,

12to whom He said, “This is the rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “This is the refreshing.” But they would not hear.

13But the Word of יהוה was to them, “Command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little,” so that they go and shall stumble backward, and be broken and snared and taken captive.

14Therefore hear the Word of יהוה, you men of scorn, who rule this people who are in Yerushalayim,

15because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with the grave we have effected a vision. When the overflowing scourge passes through, it does not come to us, for we have made lying our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”

16Therefore thus said the Master יהוה, “See, I am laying in Tsiyon a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a settled foundation. He who trusts shall not hasten away.

dedicated men from every nation under the heaven.

6And when this sound came to be, the crowd came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying to each other, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
13And others mocking said, “They have been filled with sweet wine.”

14But Kĕpha, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and said to them, “Men of Yehuḏah and all those dwelling in Yerushalayim, let this be known to you, and listen closely to my words.

15“For these men are not drunk, as you imagine, since it is only the third hour of the day.

16“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Yo’ĕl:

28“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions.

29“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.

30“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,

31the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.

32“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivereda. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapeb as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.

Hallelu-YAH .

Oscarr said:

I agree with everything you said except the last sentence. At Pentecost those filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues were speaking the praises of God. They were not preaching the Gospel. It was Peter who got up and preached to them in plain Aramaic which was the common language of the time. Hebrew was the official religious language. But whatever language was used, it was the equivalent of a preacher getting up in front of a crowd in your country or mind and preaching in plain understandable language, giving the crowd a good dose of the Gospel. Tongues was not used for the Gospel at Pentecost or anywhere else. Some early Pentecostals got the wrong idea about that and believed that if they went over to China and tried to preach the Gospel in tongues to them that they would miraculously preach Mandarin Chinese. They all came back home broke and disillusioned, because it didn't work. It was a misuse of the gift of tongues which God did not support. And yet, there have been sovereign moves of God where He has miraculously enabled a person to preach the Gospel in the language of the country even though the person had never learned the language. But this was not the gift of tongues. It was the working of a miracle, and the person retained the knowledge of that foreign language for the rest of their lives.

I want to make the point that the accounts of tongues in Acts were the diary entries of what Luke actually saw and had reported to him. His intention was not to teach the operation of the gift. That was left to Paul to do that to the Corinthians. All Luke did was to report on what happened. He did not attempt to analyse it or use what he wrote to establish a doctrine, and neither should we.

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Actually yes, the day of Pentecost was explicitly about spreading the Gospel to all Nations tongues and peoples and it has continued ever since. No change. It was ALL about "preaching the Gospel" (who can do THAT without praising the Lord?) That is why thousands were baptized and saved of the visiting Nations who spoke a foreign tongue;

(Act 2:7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?

(Act 2:8) And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

(Act 2:36) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

(Act 2:38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

THAT is what is the gift of tongues. False teachers have religiously morphed this into a bizarre demonstation of barbarian glossolalia. I've seen it. It is not of God, it is of no spirit other than deluded carnal minds desiring an "experience" like one of the workers on the tower of Babel. Everyone in a room, all chiming in, raising hands and babbling... And then afterwards, everyone smiles and hugs each other. That is NOT the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus speaks plainly. He Reveals all things. God is NOT the author of confusion. So unscriptural and such a spirit of delusion Oscar. I council you to study this out. You have a good mind, I agree with most all you post, but you've departed from all that with this strange topic. Best wishes in any case.