Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

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Presbyterian Continuist

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You will notice that believers who pray in tongues and receive the blessings from it don't quibble about it. They just get on and use it and have a great time with God as they fellowship with Him. Those who never experienced the gift of tongues in actual practice know very little about it in practical terms. This is why they quibble over different theories and misquotes of Scripture. All it shows is their lack of knowledge of how to use the tools that come with The Holy Spirit.
 
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Righttruth

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a key word in the OP is .. spiritual .. a spiritual language .. NOT a carnal intellectual language .. this wonderful gift is removed from by eternal degrees from the intellectual reasonings of man . by this gift one speaks mysteries in th spirits .. mysteries to God? NO mysteries to us ,but fully known to god who speaks through the prayer by the power of the Holy Ghost .all he desires is a willing heart .

You are saying that you don't want know what you are praying for?
 
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Biblicist

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You will notice that believers who pray in tongues and receive the blessings from it don't quibble about it. They just get on and use it and have a great time with God as they fellowship with Him. Those who never experienced the gift of tongues in actual practice know very little about it in practical terms. This is why they quibble over different theories and misquotes of Scripture. All it shows is their lack of knowledge of how to use the tools that come with The Holy Spirit.
At times, but not always, it could be that their struggles can sometimes begin with a lack of exposure to the Spirit himself.
 
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Righttruth

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That only applied to the Day of Pentecost where there is no mention that when the Centurion, his family and friends along with the Ephesians spoke tongues in another language; if this had of occurred then Paul certainly would have let us know. Therefore we are left with the normal operation of tongues which is in a non-communicative form of utterance.

That is a biased understanding. Nowhere in the book of Acts interpretation was sought. In fact, in one case they prophesied too!
 
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Biblicist

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That is a biased understanding. Nowhere in the book of Acts interpretation was sought. In fact, in one case they prophesied too!
Maybe we are addressing different passages but your initial post suggested that in Acts, when someone speaks in tongues, that it was always in known human language; where I pointed out that the only occurrence of tongues being spoken in a known tongue is with the Day of Pentecost.
 
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Righttruth

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Where exactly would that be?

As your other points either stand or fall on this point then I will wait for a reply.

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


One word and verse cannot invalidate the entire Gospel.
 
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Righttruth

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Maybe we are addressing different passages but your initial post suggested that in Acts, when someone speaks in tongues, that it was always in known human language; where I pointed out that the only occurrence of tongues being spoken in a known tongue is with the Day of Pentecost.

So also in other records in the book of Acts. Word 'interpretation' doesn't come to the picture at all.
 
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Winepress777

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1 Cor 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.​

In light of this passage you might want to qualify your post.
I can't imagine why? I would never put myself into that position, that is what Paul is warning against there... I would never speak in a foreign language (tongue) to God in the presence of someone else, shutting them out of the Word being delivered. That would be rude of course. I can pray to God in that language of course, but I'd do it in private. But to do that in front of others is Barbaric... in fact as Paul goes on to say later in that chapter. Read it all because I think you misunderstand...
It has to do with preaching the Gospel to men of a different tongue. Start at Pentecost, you'll see there what the gift of tongues actually was.
 
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Biblicist

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1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


One word and verse cannot invalidate the entire Gospel.
I was wondering if you would start with this passage where many of our English translations improperly employ "spiritual gifts" for the Greek word pneumatikon.

As you will undoubtedly see from the following commentaries, of all the options for this word, the least viable is that of "spiritual gifts" where I would lean more toward the more literal reading of "spiritual matters".

Througouth the Epistles Paul employs two words which are frequently translated in our English translations as "spiritual gifts/s" which are charismaton (grace) and pneumatikos (spiritual matters/things).

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Friberg Lexicon:
"22291 πνευματικός, ή, όν spiritual, pertaining to the spirit, opposite σαρκικός (fleshly, carnal) and σάρκινος (worldly, earthly); (1) as distinguishing the nonmaterial from the material part of man; (2) predominately as distinguishing what belongs to the supernatural world from what belongs to the natural world (1C 15.44, 46); substantivally ὁ π. the spiritual person, the Spirit-filled person, i.e. a person possessing and governed by the Spirit of God (1C 2.15); neuter plural τὰ πνευματικά spiritual things or matters (1C 9.11); spiritual gifts or enablements (1C 14.1); (3) as an adjective expressing the qualifying characteristic of impersonal things under the divine order spiritual (RO 7.14); (4) as an adjective denoting relationship to satanic forces; neuter plural τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας as a substantive spiritual forces of evil, supernatural evil powers (EP 6.12)

Gingrich Lexicon:

5219 πνευματικός
πνευματικός, ή, όν pertaining to the spirit, spiritual—1. caused by or filled with the (divine) Spirit, pertaining or corresponding to the (divine) Spirit—a. as adj. Ro 1:11; 7:14; 1 Cor 10:3f; 15:44; Eph 1:3; 5:19; Col 1:9; 3:16; 1 Pt 2:5. ὁ πνευματικὸς (ἄνθρωπος) in 1 Cor 2:15 means the spiritual person, whose powers of judgment are directed by the divine πνεῦμα. Cf. also 1 Cor 15:47 v.l.—b. subst. τὰ πνευματικά spiritual things or matters Ro 15:27; 1 Cor 2:13; 9:11; 15:46. Spiritual gifts 1 Cor 12:1; 14:1. ὁ πνευματικός the one who possesses the Spirit 1 Cor 3:1; 14:37; Gal 6:1.—2. pertaining to (evil) spirits subst. spirit-forces Eph 6:12.* [pneumatic] [pg 162]

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Gordon D. Fee (1987) pg. 576
“If so, then both here and in 14:1 the better translation might be “the things of the Spirit,” which would refer primarily to spiritual manifestations, from the perspective of the Spirit’s endowment; at the same time it would point toward those who are so endowed.”​

The First Letter to the Corinthians, Ciampa & Rosner (2010) pg. 561
“The TNIV translation gifts of the Spirit may be getting just a bit ahead of Paul’s thought at this point. Literally he says, “Now I do not want you to be ignorant concerning spiritual things [or concerning matters of spirits]” or possibly “concerning spiritual people. BDAG and most translations (for rare exceptions, see CSB, NJB) support translating the key word as “spiritual gifts” or “those who possess spiritual gifts,” but the words is much broader in its meaning. . .”​

1 Corinthians, David E. Garland (2003) pgs. 561-564
“If the genitive plural τονπνυεματικῶν (ton pneumatikon) is read as masculine, then the issue revolves around “the spiritual persons” and their characteristics. If it is read as neuter, then the issue concerns the nature of “the spiritual things” or “the spiritual gifts.” The ambiguity reflects the fact that Paul picks up an issue raised by the Corinthians, which they would understand, even if we do not. . . The majority of commentators and versions opt to read τονπνυεματικῶν as neuter, referring to “spiritual gifts,” since the subject of Paul’s overall argument concerns the manifestations of the Spirit in the church, not the characteristics of spiritual persons . . .”​

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Anthony C. Thiselton (2000) pgs. 909-911
“A relatively wide range of writers conclude that it is “impossible to find objective ground for a decision between the two possibilities, and little difference in sense is involved – spiritual persons are those who have spiritual gifts. It refers to either. But if both the writer and the readers well knew that the Greek ending included both genders (i.e., excluded neither), why should the meaning be construed in either-or terms at all? Hence Scrage notes that the masculine may embrace the Corinthians meaning, while the neuter reflects Paul’s preference to substitute χαρισματα. Meyer rightly cies Chrysostom and Luther as interpreting the Greek to mean Concerning the forms of action which proceed from the Holy Spirit and make manifest his agency. . .”​
 
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Biblicist

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I can't imagine why? I would never put myself into that position, that is what Paul is warning against there... I would never speak in a foreign language (tongue) to God in the presence of someone else, shutting them out of the Word being delivered. That would be rude of course. I can pray to God in that language of course, but I'd do it in private. But to do that in front of others is Barbaric... in fact as Paul goes on to say later in that chapter. Read it all because I think you misunderstand...
It has to do with preaching the Gospel to men of a different tongue. Start at Pentecost, you'll see there what the gift of tongues actually was.
The problem is that we do not have any examples from within the Scriptures where tongues has ever been used to preach the Gospel. This also includes the Day of Pentecost as we know from Acts 2:11 that the 120 were speaking of "the mighty deeds of God" which has nothing to do with an evangelistic message. In fact, the crowd was so confused by the words of praise that the 120 were giviing that Peter had to intervene with an evangelistic message in Aramaic where he was able to both explain what was happening and about the Good News.
 
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Winepress777

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Maybe we are addressing different passages but your initial post suggested that in Acts, when someone speaks in tongues, that it was always in known human language; where I pointed out that the only occurrence of tongues being spoken in a known tongue is with the Day of Pentecost.
The miracle of tongues on Pentecost, did not THEN morph into a strange glossalia later. That is just a bad read with no merit whatsoever. An assumed claim at best, to support a strange behavior.
If a person doesn't understand their communication between them and God, something very catastrophic is happening, not good. This is what "tongues" is, and always is in scriptures.

(Act 2:6) And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
 
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Biblicist

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The miracle of tongues on Pentecost, did not THEN morph into a strange glossalia later. That is just a bad read with no merit whatsoever. An assumed claim at best, to support a strange behavior.
If a person doesn't understand their communication between them and God, something very catastrophic is happening, not good. This is what "tongues" is, and always is in scriptures.

(Act 2:6) And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
It does seem that you are approaching the Scriptures from within a strong cessationist mindset that is probably keeping you from going with the plain meaning of the texts.
 
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Winepress777

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It does seem that you are approaching the Scriptures from within a strong cessationist mindset that is probably keeping you from going with the plain meaning of the texts.
I know exactly what those scriptures mean. I just explained them to you perfectly simple.
In fact, exactly as Paul Trumps the conversation to the Corinthians, so will I provide it;
This was the problem;

(1Co 14:16) Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

This is the core of why Paul is explaining to them not to talk in foreign tongues in PUBLIC to those who didn't speak that tongue. This is clear as a bell. PLAIN MEANING. Of you and I, I'm the only one seeing the plain text here obviously.

(1Co 14:19) howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I sure hope you see this...
 
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Biblicist

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I know exactly what those scriptures mean. I just explained them to you perfectly simple.
In fact, exactly as Paul Trumps the conversation to the Corinthians, so will I provide it;
This was the problem;

(1Co 14:16) Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

This is the core of why Paul is explaining to them not to talk in foreign tongues in PUBLIC to those who didn't speak that tongue. This is clear as a bell. PLAIN MEANING. Of you and I, I'm the only one seeing the plain text here obviously.
At the risk of repeating myself, you are certainly coming from within a strong cessationist worldview.

As Paul unequivocally says in 1Cor 14:2 that absolutely no-one, including visitors who speak a myriad of foreign languages will ever be able to understand what the Spirit says to the Father in tongues; this means that Paul is forbidding the uninterpreted use of tongues within the congregational setting as it cannot edify unless someone interprets through the Holy Spirit. In 1Cor 14:16-23 Paul goes onto to say that when someone who is unsaved (or a cessationist) enters into a meeting where everyone is speaking in tongues they can easily lay that charge "that we are mad".

Paul not only explains that tongues is uncommunicable to man but he doesn't even bother to discuss the complications that could occur if an unsaved person were to make the claim that they could understand what is being said by the Spirit to the Father.

(1Co 14:19) howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I sure hope you see this...
As Paul is saying that tongues are always directed to God and never to man, this means that prophecy has far more value as it contains (14:6) "revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching"? Praying in the Spirit (tongues) contains none of these features.
 
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Alithis

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Paul advised not to prefer that 2000 years back. Why should I now?
now now . we know that is quite an out of context reference ..
interesting that it seems to be most often those consider themselves to experts .do so having not ever experienced what they deem themselves to be experts on ...
 
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Alithis

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No one advocated blind faith. We need to search other sources to understand any concept.
what blind faith do you speak of .. ? blessed are those who have not seen ..yet believe ...? that one perhaps ?
 
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Alithis

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The thing I love about tongues is that every man with ears to hear can understand me when I speak of Christ, and I can understand every man when they speak of Christ :)
hi , Winepress777,:wave: ... as i don't like to play guessing games ..it is easier to discuss these things with open honesty about the angle we are coming from or the perspective we are approaching the topic from ..
ANd please don't think im singling you out .ask others here .i asked the same question of everyone as i become aware of them in the topic ..

the questions are -

"Have you been baptized in the holy Ghost ?.. and if so.. how do you know ? [requires testimony ]

"have you spoken in tongues or received the gift of tongues "

dont worry its not asked to critique the answer ..just to know .
 
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Biblicist

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now now . we know that is quiet and out of context reference ..
interesting that it seems to be most often those consider themselves to experts .do so having not ever experienced what they deem themselves to be experts on ...
Are you suggesting that whereas the cessationist lays the charge against the Continuist that we are basing our knowledge on experience (and with the Word); does this mean that they are basing theirs on a foundation that lacks experience where the Word is heavily redacted through their worldview?
 
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Alithis

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Are you suggesting that whereas the cessationist lays the charge against the Continuist that we are basing our knowledge on experience (and with the Word); does this mean that they are basing theirs on a foundation that lacks experience where the Word is heavily redacted through their worldview?
well ..you do like to take my tired end of day brain and put it through the ringer don't you lol .

i view the word as true .. if i take the word (of God ) and apply it ,i expect to get the result he promises .
he promises that those who believe will be baptized in the holy Ghost and with fire (two things which are beyond our fleshly comprehension ..it cant means earthly fire .. for obvious reason ) when he told the deciples to wait and they would be endued with power ..they did so and the holy ghost fell on them and they spoke in other tongues .

when i also applied his promises and waited on the lord .. i too was baptised in the holy ghost and spoke in other tongues .. and continue to do so.
if i was to say "the lord words are for them but not for me" .. where would i start saying that and where do i stop saying that ? i would be in a perpetuial state of confusion not knowing which part of his promise was for me and which promise was not .. but thankfully his word says that God is not a respecter of persons and he gives unto all who ask seek and knock .

having then applied the promise by faith and having then received the promised outcome of doing so i know BOTH by knowledge of the word of GOD ..AND .. by revelation of the holy Ghost that his word and promise is faithful and true .. so i testify of both that which i have seen and touched (for the experience is also tangible (as you well know )
But when a person speaks of a spiritual thing which they have never experienced they can not possibly know of what they speak .. they have neither believed the promise nor received it .. and that is a very sad thing . because it is clearly written that it is unbelief which causes a person to not receive the promises of god which he desires to give those that simply ask in faith .

so yes .. lol i am saying that we base our knowledge on both the word of God AND the tangible revelation of the Holy Spirit who himself was sent to lead us into the truth .
while the cessationist view is based on the fact that someone told them these things are not for today and they have believed the words of a man over and above the words of the lord JEsus .- in short .. they have believed a lie .

some may think im bold to say such a thing ( and i will surely get "flack" for doing so.. but it remains that when we listen to a man before we listen to the word of god and then we impose a mans opinion over the word of god ..both cannot be the truth .. so i claim GOD as true .
thus as he has said by his word made flesh the lord JESUS ..that who ever believes will be baptised in the Holy Ghost and with Fire .. they shall be and they will be able to testify of that occurrence in their life ..as clearly as they can testify of the day they were baptised in water they will 10 fold more testify of the day they were baptised in the Holy Spirit of the one true living God .
 
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Biblicist

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well ..you do like to take my tired end of day brain and put it through the ringer don't you lol .

i view the word as true .. if i take the word (of God ) and apply it ,i expect to get the result he promises .
he promises that those who believe will be baptized in the holy Ghost and with fire (two things which are beyond our fleshly comprehension ..it cant means earthly fire .. for obvious reason ) when he told the deciples to wait and they would be endued with power ..they did so and the holy ghost fell on them and they spoke in other tongues .

when i also applied his promises and waited on the lord .. i too was baptised in the holy ghost and spoke in other tongues .. and continue to do so.
if i was to say "the lord words are for them but not for me" .. where would i start saying that and where do i stop saying that ? i would be in a perpetuial state of confusion not knowing which part of his promise was for me and which promise was not .. but thankfully his word says that God is not a respecter of persons and he gives unto all who ask seek and knock .

having then applied the promise by faith and having then received the promised outcome of doing so i know BOTH by knowledge of the word of GOD ..AND .. by revelation of the holy Ghost that his word and promise is faithful and true .. so i testify of both that which i have seen and touched (for the experience is also tangible (as you well know )
But when a person speaks of a spiritual thing which they have never experienced they can not possibly know of what they speak .. they have neither believed the promise nor received it .. and that is a very sad thing . because it is clearly written that it is unbelief which causes a person to not receive the promises of god which he desires to give those that simply ask in faith .

so yes .. lol i am saying that we base our knowledge on both the word of God AND the tangible revelation of the Holy Spirit who himself was sent to lead us into the truth .
while the cessationist view is based on the fact that someone told them these things are not for today and they have believed the words of a man over and above the words of the lord JEsus .- in short .. they have believed a lie .

some may think im bold to say such a thing ( and i will surely get "flack" for doing so.. but it remains that when we listen to a man before we listen to the word of god and then we impose a mans opinion over the word of god ..both cannot be the truth .. so i claim GOD as true .
thus as he has said by his word made flesh the lord JESUS ..that who ever believes will be baptised in the Holy Ghost and with Fire .. they they shall be and they will be able to testify of that occurrence in their life ..as clearly as they can testify of the day they were baptised in water they will 10 fold more testify of the day they were baptised in the Holy Spirit of the one true living God .
Oops... after a well constructed reply to my whimsical post you are about to discover that I was in full agreement with you. Maybe you missed my attempt at irony - sorry!

PS: You reply was certainly a good one and I couldn't agree more.
 
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