I agree with scriptures written after Jesus was ascended.
Acts 21:10 And we remaining many more days, there came down a certain one from Judea, a prophet, by name Agabus,
1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1CO 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets,
1CO 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
EPH 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
No it is eternal purposeless punishing with no end. Punishment has a purpose.
So tell me why God is meeting your "medieval torturer" definition by burning believers with fire to save them according to scripture?
1CO 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
....15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
hillsage,
I don't mean to impose but I find your conversation interesting.
1. Dr. Bubba Love would be right in that Christ was the last revelation in the process of redemption being revealed concerning the plan of redemption and the final sacrifice for all men to be saved.
2. I believe in apostles, prophets, etc. and they can bring forth revelation but not be held as doctrine of the bible. It must be doctrinal in its revelation as in agreement to the word and the Spirit to see if it is true. Gifts of the Spirit were revelation after Christ given by Paul and is canon in scripture. So revelation today through those offices in the correct manner show they are what the canon of scripture teaches.
3. John the Revelator wrote quite a bit after Jesus died. So the prophetic doctrine of Christ bringing the kingdom under his rule and eventually to the father so God can be all in all may be said as the last of doctrinal belief and teaching of the bible even though the revelation was given to Jesus by the father and sent by his angel to John who gave it to the 7 churches and the believers who would follow.
4. Concerning punishment which we know can be in different ways whether by death, or ongoing administering of pain. We know God is not a cruel God even though he is seen as being cruel or doing cruel things as destroying the wicked in many different ways; whether swallowing up by earthquakes, floods, etc. The bible says no more floods but by fire next time.
5. 1 Corinthians 3 is talking about works of a believer who is already in heaven. It is the works that shall be burned up if they are wood, hay, and stubble and the good works will come forth as gold. The soul will be saved because this has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul for they are already saved and have passed their probationary period.
6. Some believe in full annihilation and some partial annihilation or no annihilation.
Full annihilation means people just die and suffer no torment.
Partial or temporary annihilation means they suffer hell and then die completely in the second death.
No annihilation means literal eternal punishment.
a). Full annihilation can't be true for Lazarus was still alive in hell before Jesus died. This was not a parable for Jesus never used people's names in his parables plus it included Abraham who was a real person and the rich man was alive and in torment. It couldn't have been his physical body for the body is what dies and must be resurrected. This means it was his soul or spirit.
b). Partial or temporary says there is suffering or that they are dead and will be resurrected but only temporary and then will be thrown in the lake of fire forever but will be dead.
The reason given from evangelicals that have changed their stance from no annihilation to partial is because it would make God cruel to have people suffer forever alive. The second is that in Revelation 14:14 says: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
7. UR proponents think it is cruel of God to punish anyone forever or to punish them forever and then kill them. After all, who wants to see anyone go to hell? The bible doesn't teach UR even though I understand the scriptures they use. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire seems to imply finality and not reconciliation.
8. Partial or temporary denies that the spirit or soul lives on after death. The body is what dies and has to be resurrected not the spirit or the soul. I understand the arguments of what constitutes the spirit and the soul and that is another subject. I will say this that Christ will bring those who sleep which means dead and yet not dead for even the dead in the 5th seal of revelation of believers were still alive. These will come with the Lord at his coming in the air and they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye which means their body for it is what is resurrected. Also, there will be a resurrection of the dead, both just and unjust and the resurrection will be an immortal body for this is why it is resurrected. If they are judged according to their deeds what good what it be to people who are dead. If they are to be raised and then killed why then and why not the first time individually when they died? The only answer to this would be because they had to wait at the appropriate time of the way everything unfolds to judge everyone at one time. But, if there is no punishment at all then death is just the punishment and this makes no sense when Matthew plainly says there'll be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
9. As far as Christ being cruel for eternal punishment given it could be said that hell period is too cruel for the punishment of a sinner. And according to their works their will be differing punishments just like saints who are given different positions according to their works. So I am not sure that that is a successful argument except through our human minds.
10. The false prophet and the antichrist will suffer for 1000 years in the lake of fire alive burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20. Revelation 20:10; the devil was cast into the lake of fire where the false prophet and the beast or Antichrist will be and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels and Jesus called the jewish leaders children of the devil. So why is it hard to believe that sinners who are children of the devil will suffer punishment in hell alive in an immortal body just like Satan who was created immortal by God who alone can give immortality.
Unless you one can give scriptures that imply sinners suffer punishment by death only and can rebut the scriptures and scriptural logic I have given I don't see they have any foot to stand on.
I don't claim to understand the fulness of God's judgement anymore than God's love but, according to the scripture I don't see no full or partial annihilation. Let me know what you think according to the scripture. Jerry kelso
