"Religionless Christianity"

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
37,039
13,063
✟1,077,460.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Early stage religion focuses on identifying sacred places, sacred time, and seemingly sacred actions that then leaves the overwhelming majority of life unsacred. People are told to look for God in certain special places and in particular events--usually, it seems, ones controlled by the clergy...

For those who have learned how to see fully, everything--absolutely everything--is "spiritual." This eventually and ironically leads to what the Lutheran mystic Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945) called "religionless Christianity." Bonhoeffer saw that many people were moving beyond the scaffolding of religion to the underlying and deeper Christian experience itself. Once we can accept that God is in all situations, and that God can and will use even bad situations for good, then everything and everywhere becomes an occasion for good and an encounter with God.

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...anity.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=vhECfr9_tBA
Richard Rohr's reflection for today resonated strongly with me. (The Bonhoeffer quote has been added to give Rohr detractors credibility.)

And while I am a regular churchgoer, I have found that my evolving spirituality and my search for God's presence in the daily events of my life have led me to this place.
 

mark46

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,042
4,720
✟830,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...anity.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=vhECfr9_tBA
Richard Rohr's reflection for today resonated strongly with me. (The Bonhoeffer quote has been added to give Rohr detractors credibility.)

And while I am a regular churchgoer, I have found that my evolving spirituality and my search for God's presence in the daily events of my life have led me to this place.

Obviously, the idea that sacredness is not limited to the Church is not a new idea. Brother Lawrence might the most well known of those who taught that we find God in our daily lives.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/66573.Brother_Lawrence
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajni
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
37,039
13,063
✟1,077,460.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I am saying that neither Dietrich Bonhoeffer nor Fr. Richard Rohr are negating the values of traditional religious practice. In their own lives (Bonhoeffer being deceased) I am sure that they combined their expanding spirituality with traditional religious practice (as I do).

Yes, there are people that are "spiritual but not religious" or "religionless Christians." I think that at some point in the lives of all of those Christians they will feel a need for a supportive community of faith and affiliate with a church, but it will probably never be the primary focus of their Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a cleanup. As a reminder, this area is a safe haven for liberal Catholics to discuss issues. Others are welcome to post in fellowship or ask good-faith questions. Please see the Statement of Purpose.

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Joseph Ratzinger made the controversial but accurate statement that one could encounter Christ outside of a church and the Eucharist. Too many people act one way in church and totally different everywhere else. People who would never dream of desecrating a church or holy objects have no problem with desecrating God's creation, the Earth, or exploiting others.

One can seriously question the claim that Christ founded a religion. As a response to the Gospel, most Catholic religious orders are founded on the idea of living a sacred life and of service; they are not primarily concerned with sacred places or elaborate worship and ceremonies. I think that such a response is more valid than the creation of detailed doctrines and rubrics, or of soaring cathedrals, none of which can be traced back to Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajni
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If God is everywhere and in all things (omnipresent), then it's nonsense to say He can ONLY be encountered in Church.
I agree, but we all know that many people act and talk one way in church and much differently outside of it. And Ratzinger's statement drew the ire of those who believe that Christ can only be encountered in the Eucharist, leading many to place devotions and rubrics above living the Gospel.
 
Upvote 0

Rajni

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯
Supporter
Dec 26, 2007
8,552
3,930
Visit site
✟1,210,647.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Single
Obviously, the idea that sacredness is not limited to the Church is not a new idea. Brother Lawrence might the most well known of those who taught that we find God in our daily lives.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/66573.Brother_Lawrence
Indeed, the idea of offering all one's actions to God
goes way back, and can even be found
outside of Christianity (in the Bhagavad Gita, for
example).

That said, Brother Lawrence's book, The Practice of the Presence
of God, made a *huge* impact on me. Very effective in
turning everyday life into one big worship-service; the
challenge for me has been maintaining the mindset he
recommends in order to accomplish this.

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do,
do it all for the glory of God". 1 Corinthians 10:31

I'm glad Fantine posted about this as I'm in serious
need of reintegrating this approach to ... well ...
everything I say and do. Seriously.
love080.gif



-
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟30,661.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
"Early stage religion focuses on identifying sacred places, sacred time, and seemingly sacred actions that then leaves the overwhelming majority of life unsacred."

This is the opposite of early stage religion, and rather describes later stages.
 
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,042
4,720
✟830,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
"Early stage religion focuses on identifying sacred places, sacred time, and seemingly sacred actions that then leaves the overwhelming majority of life unsacred."

This is the opposite of early stage religion, and rather describes later stages.

I don't know if you meant what you posted.

In any case, in the "later stages" of religion, the overwhelming majority of life is NOT unsacred. As we continue in our walk, we will find sacredness in many, many places. While Church will always be a special place, there are many, many places and actions that are sacred. To pray unceasingly was always among the goals of the early fathers and monks. IMHO, to do so only in the Church would greatly diminish their spiritual walk, and ours.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟30,661.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I don't know if you meant what you posted.

In any case, in the "later stages" of religion, the overwhelming majority of life is NOT unsacred. As we continue in our walk, we will find sacredness in many, many places. While Church will always be a special place, there are many, many places and actions that are sacred. To pray unceasingly was always among the goals of the early fathers and monks. IMHO, to do so only in the Church would greatly diminish their spiritual walk, and ours.

So by "early stage religion" you really mean something like... I dunno... the first steps out of a modern way of seeing the world into a Christian one? I don't understand what you're referring to.
 
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,042
4,720
✟830,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
So by "early stage religion" you really mean something like... I dunno... the first steps out of a modern way of seeing the world into a Christian one? I don't understand what you're referring to.

There have been many books and articles written about the stages of our religious experience. Other posters mentions such stages. Do wish references for the discussion of such stages? Both Fowler and Scott Peck wrote extensively on the subject. Some studied this idea in college, some in seminary, and some on their own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gordonhooker
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
It is interesting that Richard Rohr calls Bonhoeffer a "mystic". This is exactly how I read him as well in his final letter from cell 92A.

It's very frustrating to be mystically inclined but to be mostly in exile in western churches that are still steeped in rationalism. The whole liberal Protestant project is thoroughly rationalistic, and has never accurately internalized Bonhoeffer's message. It's still stuck in the dying 19th century paradigm of religion.

I agree with what has been previously said. Bonhoeffer sees the Church as a "base of operations" where Christians are formed and renewed spiritually, ready to go back out into the world and live lives encountering God in the world. In the old paradigm of "religion", God is instead packaged in a religion-shaped box, giving us access to the transcendent, through the Church, the hierarchies, and the sacraments. Bonhoeffer says this is a false sense of transcendence, rather the mysteries of the Church should point us back to encountering God in the world and its needs.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Fantine
Upvote 0

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Richard Rohr along with Ken Wilber, Ilia Delio, Dawn Nothwehr, Rob Bell, Amos Smith, and Wendell and Thomas Berry are all great teachers of this modern age. Richard, Ilia, and Dawn are Franciscans as I am and are very open to finding God in places other than Church on Sundays or only within the structure of the Church. I tend to agree with Richard that while ever we remain within the Church we can by our actions help the Church to grow and prosper.
 
Upvote 0

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It is interesting that Richard Rohr calls Bonhoeffer a "mystic". This is exactly how I read him as well in his final letter from cell 92A.

It's very frustrating to be mystically inclined but to be mostly in exile in western churches that are still steeped in rationalism. The whole liberal Protestant project is thoroughly rationalistic, and has never accurately internalized Bonhoeffer's message. It's still stuck in the dying 19th century paradigm of religion.

I agree with what has been previously said. Bonhoeffer sees the Church as a "base of operations" where Christians are formed and renewed spiritually, ready to go back out into the world and live lives encountering God in the world. In the old paradigm of "religion", God is instead packaged in a religion-shaped box, giving us access to the transcendent, through the Church, the hierarchies, and the sacraments. Bonhoeffer says this is a false sense of transcendence, rather the mysteries of the Church should point us back to encountering God in the world and its needs.

Not much has changed in 3500 odd years, it is great that we have the mystics to remind us when we might be heading in the other direction. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I've noticed a surprising neglect of the sacraments in the Episcopal and Anglican churches. I think in some areas they've fallen prey to the Puritan/Pietist tendency to focus on preaching , "religiosity" and private devotional lives. But as Basil the Great noted a long time ago, the sacraments are tied up with our encountering God "in the world" outside the confines of religion. And not coincidentally, the sacraments and mysteries of the faith were something that Bonhoeffer valued to the end, despite his "religionless Christianity". What he really thought had to go was the wooden orthodoxy, dogmatism, and apologetics- these had no place in the modern world.
 
Upvote 0

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I've noticed a surprising neglect of the sacraments in the Episcopal and Anglican churches. I think in some areas they've fallen prey to the Puritan/Pietist tendency to focus on preaching , "religiosity" and private devotional lives. But as Basil the Great noted a long time ago, the sacraments are tied up with our encountering God "in the world" outside the confines of religion. And not coincidentally, the sacraments and mysteries of the faith were something that Bonhoeffer valued to the end, despite his "religionless Christianity". What he really thought had to go was the wooden orthodoxy, dogmatism, and apologetics- these had no place in the modern world.

Interesting comment - here in Australia we don't neglect the sacraments at all - although I will say that not many Anglicans I know outside of our Franciscan Orders use the sacrament of 'Confession and Absolution' other than the general confession during Mass. We have them all but break them into 2 groups:

Gospel Sacraments
Baptism
Eucharist (or Communion, Mass, or the Lord's Supper)

Non Gospel Sacraments
Confession and absolution
Holy Matrimony
Confirmation
Ordination (also called Holy Orders)
Anointing of the Sick (also called Healing or Unction.)
 
Upvote 0